"Nuns Blast Catholic Church's 'Doctrine Of Discovery' That Justified Indigenous Oppression"

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That is a good point you are bringing up about the Crusades and the Inquisition. Was it right for the Church authorities to support the burning of people, such as Joan of Arc, at the stake? As far as the Crusades go, the fourth Crusade was a real disaster with Bishops from Venice praying for the destruction of the Greek Orthodox. I suppose we could go into the many horror stories associated with that Crusade, such as the brutal rape of Greek Orthodox nuns who had dedicated their lives to Christ. And the fact that much of the incredibly valuable loot stolen from the Greek Orthodox Churches found its way into Roman Catholic Churches in the west and was never returned.
Pope Urban II called for Crusades in Nov. 1095 in Clermont, France, He reasons were quite clear:
  1. Code:
     To come to the aid of the emperor and the Byzantine Christians
  2. Code:
     To help protect Christians around the world who were being persecuted and killed
  3. To re-conquer the holy Land and create a safe passage for pilgrims to travel there
 
Some clarifications.

First, the conduct of Spanish and Portugese in the New World varied a lot from place to place and from time to time. They didn’t enslave everybody just because they were Indians. It may be recalled, for instance, that some of the Indian nobles in Mexico, particularly some Tlaxcalans, became Spanish Grandees almost immediately upon the conquest of Tenochtitlan. It has to be remembered too, that Spain was, at the time, semi-feudal itself. If you were a poor Spaniard from an unfavored area (like Cortez himself was) you were pretty low on the socioeconomic pole; a peasant, half-owned by the local nobility unless (like Cortez) you somehow managed to scramble your way out of it by hook or crook. We need to notice, as well, that the “racial composition” of Mexico is 80% Indian today. The Spanish did not pursue policies of extermination or it would not be that way.

Second, slavery in the “Catholic world” of the time was very different from that of the “Protestant world”. Spain and France, for instance, didn’t have “chattel slavery” like the Brits and their descendants in the U.S. did. Slavery was deemed a temporary condition, more like the indentured servitude of many Europeans who came to the U.S.
That was an issue with Louisiana which, under French rule, had the “Catholic” version of slavery and a substantial number of free blacks and people of mixed ancestry. The U.S. had adopted chattel slavery on a racial basis. It never took full hold in Louisiana even though the U.S. law purported to impose it.

The same was true of Indians in, say, the Louisiana Territory. In the truly French regions (most of Louisiana was without white settlers at the time of the Louisiana purchase) their status was not greatly different from anyone else’s. As anyone in southern Louisiana knows, the Cajun “ethnicity” is of mixed white, Indian and some black. One of the first entrants to St. Louis University, the oldest university west of the Mississippi and predating the state itself, was Jean Baptiste Charbonneau, the son of Sacajawea.

That’s not to say there were not Spanish or Portugese who treated Indians mercilessly. There were. And a good part of that was due to the fact that it was difficult for anyone to prevent them from doing it in what was, for a long time, a lot of ungoverned or lightly governed territory. There is still slavery in the U.S., particularly sex slavery. It’s as illegal as illegal gets, but it still goes on clandestinely.
 
As far as the Crusades go, the fourth Crusade was a real disaster with Bishops from Venice praying for the destruction of the Greek Orthodox. I suppose we could go into the many horror stories associated with that Crusade, such as the brutal rape of Greek Orthodox nuns who had dedicated their lives to Christ. And the fact that much of the incredibly valuable loot stolen from the Greek Orthodox Churches found its way into Roman Catholic Churches in the west and was never returned.
We could also go into the history of the Fourth Crusade a bit deeper. It started out innocently enough. The fighters were largely Franks. They set out for Venice, where they thought they had passage arranged with Venice. In the meanwhile, they were approached by the son of the deposed emperor of Byzantium, Isaac Angelus, who promised to pay their passage to Palestine and also provide 10,000 Byzantine soldiers to the effort IF they would reinstate his father on the throne. They agreed to that. In another subcurrent, the Venetian fleet was actually controlled by the Venetian ruler, Enrico Dandolo. Dandolo had been blinded or partially blinded by the then ruler of the Byzantine empire in a persecution/purge of Italians in Constantinople. (maybe the Greeks had good reason and maybe didn’t) Dandolo upped the cost of passage, wouldn’t rely on the Byzantine promise and added the further condition that the crusaders also take the Adriatic city of Zara, which had recently shaken off Venetian domination. So, the Franks agreed to that as well.

The Pope threatened excommunication on all crusaders who would war against Christians. They took Zara for Dandolo and were excommunicated for it. Then off to Constantinople, even so.

The Byzantines at first agreed to reinstate Isaac Angelus, but then refused and deposed him again when they heard the full terms. One of the further conditions promised by Isaac Angelus’ son was that the Orthodox would reunite with the Latin Church; a promise that was unacceptable to the powers that were in Constantinople.

So, everybody got angry with everybody else. The Byzantines deposed Isaac Angelus again, closed the gates on the Franks, leaving them to starve into submission outside the city. But the former made a terrible mistake in additionally sallying out to drive the Franks away. The Franks were outnumbered but were by far the better fighters and took the city. And, indeed, they did sack it. Never did get to the Holy Land. Some of the Frankish leaders decided to stay and rule the city, which didn’t work out. The rest drifted home, and a fair amount of loot did make its way back to the west with them. Some of it was even given to various Latin churches, the bronze horses atop St. Mark’s in Venice being an example, compliments of Enrico Dandolo. They had been taken from a horseracing arena in Constantinople.

About 250 years later, the Turks conquered Constantinople. Some Orthodox blame the Latins for that, asserting that it weakened Constantinople’s resistance. And it might have.

On the other hand, one has to wonder whether a city that was conquered by 8000 Franks without cannon could have resisted assault by 200,000 Turks with cannon, no matter what. The Kingdom of Hungary did try to assist Constaninople, but got conquered by the Turks itself for its effort. Later, of course, the Turks very nearly took Vienna, and probably would have but for Jan Sobieski and his Polish cavalry.

But it’s all still a contentious thing, and draws debate. The one sure thing about it is that it’s not as simple a case as many claim it is.
 
Please provide some names so we’ll know who you’re talking about.
Look to your signature. 👍

I’m not even going to bring up the fracas raised by our current Pope! :rotfl:
Sorry no “age of exploration” is worshiped by any Catholic.
:rotfl:
Why beat on the Catholics who look bad in the past and blame all Catholics for what a few did?
You are deliberately butchering my post beyond context. I don’t know how many times I keep repeating this: Stop condemning the present while worshiping the past.
 
We could also go into the history of the Fourth Crusade a bit deeper. It started out innocently enough. The fighters were largely Franks. They set out for Venice, where they thought they had passage arranged with Venice. In the meanwhile, they were approached by the son of the deposed emperor of Byzantium, Isaac Angelus, who promised to pay their passage to Palestine and also provide 10,000 Byzantine soldiers to the effort IF they would reinstate his father on the throne. They agreed to that. In another subcurrent, the Venetian fleet was actually controlled by the Venetian ruler, Enrico Dandolo. Dandolo had been blinded or partially blinded by the then ruler of the Byzantine empire in a persecution/purge of Italians in Constantinople. (maybe the Greeks had good reason and maybe didn’t) Dandolo upped the cost of passage, wouldn’t rely on the Byzantine promise and added the further condition that the crusaders also take the Adriatic city of Zara, which had recently shaken off Venetian domination. So, the Franks agreed to that as well.

The Pope threatened excommunication on all crusaders who would war against Christians. They took Zara for Dandolo and were excommunicated for it. Then off to Constantinople, even so.

The Byzantines at first agreed to reinstate Isaac Angelus, but then refused and deposed him again when they heard the full terms. One of the further conditions promised by Isaac Angelus’ son was that the Orthodox would reunite with the Latin Church; a promise that was unacceptable to the powers that were in Constantinople.

So, everybody got angry with everybody else. The Byzantines deposed Isaac Angelus again, closed the gates on the Franks, leaving them to starve into submission outside the city. But the former made a terrible mistake in additionally sallying out to drive the Franks away. The Franks were outnumbered but were by far the better fighters and took the city. And, indeed, they did sack it. Never did get to the Holy Land. Some of the Frankish leaders decided to stay and rule the city, which didn’t work out. The rest drifted home, and a fair amount of loot did make its way back to the west with them. Some of it was even given to various Latin churches, the bronze horses atop St. Mark’s in Venice being an example, compliments of Enrico Dandolo. They had been taken from a horseracing arena in Constantinople.

About 250 years later, the Turks conquered Constantinople. Some Orthodox blame the Latins for that, asserting that it weakened Constantinople’s resistance. And it might have.

On the other hand, one has to wonder whether a city that was conquered by 8000 Franks without cannon could have resisted assault by 200,000 Turks with cannon, no matter what. The Kingdom of Hungary did try to assist Constaninople, but got conquered by the Turks itself for its effort. Later, of course, the Turks very nearly took Vienna, and probably would have but for Jan Sobieski and his Polish cavalry.

But it’s all still a contentious thing, and draws debate. The one sure thing about it is that it’s not as simple a case as many claim it is.
And the Roman Catholic Churches in the west held on to much of the stolen loot, not returning it?
 
As I said the Church did not burn her at the stake-in fact the Canonized her!
The Church turned over the victim to the state and the state was in charge of carrying out these executions. It is not like the Church came out and opposed the execution, they in fact supported it. There were cases in which Roman Catholics who publicly opposed the burning at the stake of heretics were declared from the pulpit to be excommunicated. (See the books by Henry Charles Lea for particular examples).
 
As I said the Church did not burn her at the stake-in fact the Canonized her!
The canonization took place after she was burned at the stake. Since she was a saint, then why did Roman Catholic Bishop of Beauvais Pierre Cauchon declare her guilty and turn her over to the state for execution by public burning at the stake ?
 
A minute ago I thought you said that secular humanists assign value based on human experience and culture.
An interesting book to read on this topic might be: The Dawn of Conscience, by James H. Breasted. Here Dr. Breasted argues that the source of our moral sentiments and basis of our moral beliefs emerged first in Egypt before 2000 BC and only later influenced the Hebrews who went on to further develop moral thought.
 
The canonization took place after she was burned at the stake. Since she was a saint, then why did Roman Catholic Bishop of Beauvais Pierre Cauchon declare her guilty and turn her over to the state for execution by public burning at the stake ?
Beats me although I suspect it had some political overtones He acted on his own and the Pope was very displeased with him. But as I’ve pointed out before your statement that the church burned her at the steak is simply false as is your contention that the church turned her over to the civil authorities
 
Beats me although I suspect it had some political overtones He acted on his own and the Pope was very displeased with him. But as I’ve pointed out before your statement that the church burned her at the steak is simply false as is your contention that the church turned her over to the civil authorities
What you say is misleading because the papacy recognised the juridical existence of the Inquisition. The Inquisitors argued that they represented the Pope and called attention to certain papal bulls which they argued granted them power.
How do you explain the papal bull of Pope Innocent IV Ad extirpanda of 1252, which authorized (and defined the appropriate circumstances for) the use of torture by the Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics.
Or how do you explain the papal bull Summis desiderantes affectibus issued by Pope Innocent VIII on December 5, 1484 which gave papal approval for the Inquisition to proceed against witches by correcting, imprisoning, punishing and chastising them according to their deserts.
 
Pope Urban II called for Crusades in Nov. 1095 in Clermont, France, He reasons were quite clear:
  1. Code:
     To come to the aid of the emperor and the Byzantine Christians
  2. Code:
     To help protect Christians around the world who were being persecuted and killed
  3. Code:
     To re-conquer the holy Land and create a safe passage for pilgrims to travel there
and to add, the holy father tried to prevent the sack of constantinople.
 
And the Roman Catholic Churches in the west held on to much of the stolen loot, not returning it?
Return it to whom? The Turks, who probably have the most colorable “legal” claim to it?

And what of the secular owners of ostensibly looted Byzantine treasures? Or is it only the Catholic churches who need to return Byzantine items?

Well,present your plan so the experts can examine it.

Recalling that the last Byzantine emperor sold a lot of treasures to raise money; that Byzantines fleeing Constantinople brought a lot of stuff with them; further recalling that the Turks got a lot of it and spread it around where some was bought by westerners and recalling that westerners (particularly Italians) imitated a lot of Byzantine art, where is the list of items, verified by the proper experts, that are to be returned?

And the treasure Jan Sobieski’s soldiers took from Kara Mustafa’s army to Poland, (it was immense) much of which undoubtedly came from Constantinople and was fabricated prior to the Turkish conquest. Do you want to return them to the Turks as well? Have they all been identified and catalogued?
 
What Saints of today are you referring to Edith Stein? Maximilian Kolbe? John Paul II? John XXIII ?
There are many future saints currently in the making. Many of them work with the poor and indigient. Not all of them will be raised by the church, but all of them will be recognized by God.

I’ve seen people in these forums label Pope Francis as a potential Marxist because he has talked about economics in a way that didn’t praise unconditionally free markets and unfettered capitalism. People who wanted the church to help the refugee children coming over the US/Mexican border are suspect as, well being non-american at a minimum. Suggesting that the government has a hand in helping citizens in proverty or disabled or out of work will get you labeled a socialist faster than you can say bob’s your uncle.

At this point, I have a feeling that the Statue of Liberty would be labeled by some as socialist or marxist or, worst of all, a liberal.
 
Look to your signature. 👍

I’m not even going to bring up the fracas raised by our current Pope! :rotfl:

.
You stated:
Right. Meanwhile the saints of today are labelled as socialists, terrorists, and New Age gurus because well, they live in 21st century. (And apparently, the most sinful era of humanity.)
Are you saying that Pope Saint John XXIII, Pope Saint John Paul II and Pope Francis are labeled as socialists, terrorists and/or New Age gurus? By whom?
 
What you say is misleading because the papacy recognised the juridical existence of the Inquisition. The Inquisitors argued that they represented the Pope and called attention to certain papal bulls which they argued granted them power.
How do you explain the papal bull of Pope Innocent IV Ad extirpanda of 1252, which authorized (and defined the appropriate circumstances for) the use of torture by the Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics.
Or how do you explain the papal bull Summis desiderantes affectibus issued by Pope Innocent VIII on December 5, 1484 which gave papal approval for the Inquisition to proceed against witches by correcting, imprisoning, punishing and chastising them according to their deserts.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI
 
There are many future saints currently in the making. Many of them work with the poor and indigient. Not all of them will be raised by the church, but all of them will be recognized by God.

I’ve seen people in these forums label Pope Francis as a potential Marxist because he has talked about economics in a way that didn’t praise unconditionally free markets and unfettered capitalism. People who wanted the church to help the refugee children coming over the US/Mexican border are suspect as, well being non-american at a minimum. Suggesting that the government has a hand in helping citizens in proverty or disabled or out of work will get you labeled a socialist faster than you can say bob’s your uncle.

At this point, I have a feeling that the Statue of Liberty would be labeled by some as socialist or marxist or, worst of all, a liberal.
Francis Cabrini worked with the poor-she was canonized by the Church. Mother Theresa worked with the poor-it is likely she will be canonized by the Church. Same for Elizabeth Ann Seton. And then we have great 20th Century Saints like Maximillian Kolbe and Edith Stein who gave their lives standing up to tyranny

This thread is rife with people taking past actions by individuals and using them to condemn the entire church. One would think that the only thing that happened in the Church from Pentecost to the present was the crusades, one Popes approval of slavery in one specific instance, the inquisition and the trial of Galileo.
 
The canonization took place after she was burned at the stake. Since she was a saint, then why did Roman Catholic Bishop of Beauvais Pierre Cauchon declare her guilty and turn her over to the state for execution by public burning at the stake ?
may i ask you to educate yourself on canonisation.
 
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