Nuns get involved in the battle for the White House

[kimmielittle]

I see nothing in your post to suggest the good sister does not support the sanctity of life. Not everybody supports penalties against doctors who perform abortions - and with good reason.

Ahhhhhh that is not what you claimed about Ms Campbell

YOUR CLAIM

Originally Posted by seekerz
I cannot speak to the nuns’ position on abortion,** but I would expect that it is aligned with that of the Church…**

my bold

Church Teaching:

EVANGELIUM VITAE

1. Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. my bold ]There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. From the very beginnings of the Church, the apostolic preaching reminded Christians of their duty to obey legitimately constituted public authorities (cf. Rom 13:1-7; 1 Pet 2:13-14), but at the same time it firmly warned that "we must obey God

rather than men" (Acts 5:29). In the Old Testament, precisely in regard to threats against life, we find a significant example of resistance to the unjust command of those in authority. After Pharaoh ordered the killing of all newborn males, the Hebrew midwives refused. “They did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live” (Ex

1:17). But the ultimate reason for their action should be noted: “the midwives feared God” (ibid.). It is precisely from obedience to God-to whom alone is due that fear which is acknowledgment of his absolute sovereignty-that the strength and the courage to resist unjust human laws are born. It is the strength and the courage of those prepared even to be imprisoned or put to the sword, in the certainty that this is what makes for “the endurance and faith of the saints” (Rev 13:10).

In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to “take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law, or vote for it”.98

vatican.va/holy_father/jo…-vitae_en.html

IN HER WORDS

TWS: On the legal question, do you think there should be penalties against abortion doctors?** I mean, should it be illegal to perform abortions?** my bold

CAMPBELL: That’s beyond my pay grade.** I don’t know.**

Is Ms Campbell in line with Church Teachings on abortion?

 

[CMatt25]

The morality of Ryan’s budget has been called into question by others in the Church - not just the nuns.

Being a person of limited means myself, I find the idea that a person or a country can ‘cut’ or save their way out of debt to be highly questionable to the point of being almost laughable - but then I’m no economist. Most of those experts emphasize that both must be done: increasing revenue and cutting spending. If I accept that as fact, I would expect to see the pain applied first to those who can best withstand it - in my book, anything else would call into question the selflessness of the the least vulnerable among us.

You’re preaching to the choir in me on this one, Seekerz. I will never believe we should even try to cut our way out of debt without increasing revenue as well. Nor that Christ would want the pain and sacrifice and burden to be first shouldered by the more vulnerable and less fortunate among us. God bless you for posting this.

 

[Lapey]

Unlike you Lapey who apparently think you can, as in the words of Seekerz, “I cannot speak to the nuns’ position on abortion, but I would expect that it is aligned with that of the Church.”

I suspect the nuns pray deeply for the sanctity of life and pray every child brought into this world is wanted, loved, and cared for. Much like Catholics and Christians of various stripes and people of faith all over the world do. The nuns also protect the sanctity of life if you were to understand life’s sanctity includes not only the unborn. But as others have explained, I think Seekerz has done a great job in explaining this to you. Far better than I ever could. But caring about life starts before conception and goes far beyond the womb. To the lives of the poor, the lives of women before and after a pregnancy, the lives of children born into this world…

And I have already seen where many practicing faithful Catholics have already explained to you on another thread why they are not convinced electing Mitt Romney POTUS means the overturn of Roe, given the results of past nominations to the SCOTUS by Republicans and so forth. Nor even if it were, they are not convinced that abortion will ever be illegal in all 50 states. Nor even if that remote possibility ever occurred, that abortion would cease to exist. So in their consciences this is not enough of a reason for them to vote for your personal candidate for the WH.

There is enough evidence out there, includeing what was provided, to show these nuns are not pro-life. Unless the definition of pro-life is as you describe it, to pray for life issues. Sorry Matt, actions speak louder than words.

James 2:17 “So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

 

[CMatt25]

There is enough evidence out there, includeing what was provided, to show these nuns are not pro-life. Unless the definition of pro-life is as you describe it, to pray for life issues. Sorry Matt, actions speak louder than words.

James 2:17 “So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

Lapey, have you ever thought that social justice is the special calling for these nuns?

But no that is not my sole definition of “pro life”. I’m not surprised though if my definition of “pro life” differs from yours. It differs from that of many others too. Oh well in any case peace.

 

[Lapey]

No while I’m shaken by other things too such as things I’ve read and been told, including this criticism I’m reading of Sister Simone and the Catholic nuns, I assure you my Christian faith is fine and remains unshaken.

Your faith is shaken every time the church you attend espouses anything contrary to your belief; why else would you run to another church to find one that won’t exclude “liberal Christians”? Ever thought it may not be the Church’s teachings but the formation of the conscience which is lacking?

 

[Elizabeth502]

There is enough evidence out there…to show these nuns are not pro-life. Unless the definition of pro-life is as you describe it, to pray for life issues…James 2:17 “So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

Just noting, Lapey, that the same people who correctly say that merely praying for the poor is not enough, are also those who dispense with practical responsibility (voting, acting) in the life issues. Some are also in favor of the Democratic Party’s anti-life platform positions (rationalizing those as well ), but I’m not even going there for this observation.

The irony is that active orders of consecrated religious agree to witness practically in all matters of Catholic (not just Christian) doctrine. Their promises and vows affirm communion with Rome, not merely communion with sections of the Gospel they unilaterally declare as comprehensive enough for their mission.

Edited to add:
The “special calling” of particular congregations of religious with a Catholic identity is never legitimately oppositional to the entire Catholic moral message. Ever.
If anyone thinks that such limited loyalty to Church doctrine is possible (and to still be considered an order faithful to the Church), find it in the canons and share with us how doctrinally independent any authentic Catholic order is allowed to be. (Hint: You won’t find it.)

 

[BroomWagon]

Lapey, I’m not surprised if my definition of “pro life” differs from yours. It differs from that of many others too. Oh well in any case peace.

Okay, so you’d vote for someone who would let live babies die as Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act 4 times besides being a big exponent of Planned Parenthood. That is good, it is your vote. Likewise, Republicans have defunded Planned Parenthood in Wisconsin, New Jersey and elsewhere and want to do so nationally so in the end, we do have to see a vote for Obama is a vote for more abortions.

Using the excuse Romney won’t reverse Roe vs. Wade really is not sound logic, just like the Civil War, all is not accomplished in one moment.

 

[kimmielittle]

Let’s see if I have this correct:

Ms Campbell and some posters are concerned about tentative proposed budget cuts?

President Obama’s budget suffered a second embarrassing defeat Wednesday, when senators voted 99-0 to reject it.

Coupled with the House’s rejection in March, 414-0, that means Mr. Obama’s budget has failed to win a single vote in support this year.

BUT Mr Obama’s budget couldn’t garner even ONE DEMOCRAT vote?

washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/may/16/obama-budget-defeated-99-0-senate/

 

[Lapey]

You’re preaching to the choir in me on this one, Seekerz. I will never believe we should even try to cut our way out of debt without increasing revenue as well. Nor that Christ would want the pain and sacrifice and burden to be first shouldered by the more vulnerable and less fortunate among us. God bless you for posting this.

This is the mistake you make; it is always automatically that those who want spending cuts want to hurt anyone. It is also unfortunate that you automatically think none of us want tax increases; by the way, instead of using the democrat talking points word for word, say what it is to increase revenue, tax increases.

We have proven we can get people off of welfare and public assistance that are able to work, how is that evil???

PS. Tax increases alone without major budget cuts will not do anything. I like the Penny Plan, actual 1% cuts to every line in the budget for 10 years. It’s time to make some real hard decisions or all of us will be in trouble.

A fair tax plan should be put in place, a flat rate with base deduction. Example, 15% for every wage earner with the first 50K deducted for all expenses. This will take care of the lower income family’s taxes and the big earners will end up paying more without any deductions. Do away with all corporate taxes, who pays corporate taxes? The consumer does corporations do not. I could go on but I won’t bore you.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

PS. Tax increases alone without major budget cuts will not do anything. I like the Penny Plan, actual 1% cuts to every line in the budget for 10 years. It’s time to make some real hard decisions or all of us will be in trouble.

A fair tax plan should be put in place, a flat rate with base deduction. Example, 15% for every wage earner with the first 50K deducted for all expenses. This will take care of the lower income family’s taxes and the big earners will end up paying more without any deductions. Do away with all corporate taxes, who pays corporate taxes? The consumer does corporations do not. I could go on but I won’t bore you.

Small correction: the Penny plan balances the budget in 6 years, IIRC.

 

[kimmielittle]

Lapey, have you ever thought that social justice is the special calling for these nuns?

But no that is not my sole definition of “pro life”. I’m not surprised though if my definition of “pro life” differs from yours. It differs from that of many others too. Oh well in any case peace.

Do you know what the “PRO” in “Pro-life” means?

In means Promotion-Of-Life.

You are describing a person who is “socially concerned” - not someone Promoting -Life.

 

[kimmielittle]

Okay, so you’d vote for someone who would let live babies die as Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act 4 times besides being a big exponent of Planned Parenthood. That is good, it is your vote. Likewise, Republicans have defunded Planned Parenthood in Wisconsin, New Jersey and elsewhere and want to do so nationally so in the end, we do have to see a vote for Obama is a vote for more abortions.

Using the excuse Romney won’t reverse Roe vs. Wade really is not sound logic just like the Civil War, all is not accomplished in one moment.

my bold

In Fact it is a fallacy in logic… Called a “Strawman”.

carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

 

[CMatt25]

He said that that one experience drove him away from that parish. If one disagreement of opinion can drive a person out of a building forever, I’d say that’s pretty telling about their level of faith, at least at the time.

Correct that was what drove me away from that building. But I’d attended that building before and speaking solely for myself, I usually didn’t feel what I need to feel. But no it tells you nothing about my level of faith in God or in Christ because it was just one building.

 

[Lochias]

Correct that was what drove me away from that building. But I’d attended that building before and speaking solely for myself, I usually didn’t feel what I need to feel. But no it tells you nothing about my level of faith in God or in Christ because it was just one building.

Well, faith and feeling don’t go hand-in-hand, either. I doubt Jesus felt very good when he was in agony in the Garden, or being nailed to the Cross, but he retained his faith.

Actions, not feelings, are the true measure of our faith.

 

[BroomWagon]

my bold

In Fact it is a fallacy in logic… Called a “Strawman”.

carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

Thank you.

 

[scipio337]

my bold

In Fact it is a fallacy in logic… Called a Strawman".

carm.org/logical-fallacies-or-fallacies-argumentation

Carm as a source on a Catholic site?



And I have no idea how that argument represents a strawman.

The “Romney won’t do anything about abortion” argument is an easy illicit affirmative.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, have you ever thought that social justice is the special calling for these nuns?

But no that is not my sole definition of “pro life”. I’m not surprised though if my definition of “pro life” differs from yours. It differs from that of many others too. Oh well in any case peace.

You are kidding right??? For an entire year, the first year of formation, I studied the social justice encyclicals written by our popes starting with Rerum Nevarum and Pope Leo XIII and ending with the writings of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

Social justice is the foundation of the diaconate. Deacons are called to serve just as Jesus served; this is precisely why these writings are the foundation of formation.

The social justice these nuns push for is not the same social justice the popes have worked for all the way through to now. This is precisely why their numbers are shrinking and the current Pope is starting to reign them in. Is Pope benedict XVI also working to promote republican ideas which differ from these nuns?

PS. You referred to them as clergy earlier; they are not clerics as women cannot receive ordination, Holy Orders. They are consecrated religious, but not clergy.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Carm as a source on a Catholic site?



And I have no idea how that argument represents a strawman.

The “Romney won’t do anything about abortion” argument is an easy illicit affirmative.

I viewed the Carm website. Ouch.

 

[CMatt25]

You’re not going to convince me, and you must know that. Who’re you really trying to convince?

You since you were questioning it. But nevermind since I’m not going to convince you. It’s really not that important to me that I do anyway. God’s blessings to you in your faith and peace be with you.

 

[Ender]

Cutting spending has to be done first with the least necessary things - not necessarily with the biggest expenditures. Increasing revenue has to be simultaneous. What tax rate? Not being an economist I could not say.

You keep saying you are not an economist but at the same time you keep asserting that taxes ought to be raised. Are you unaware that almost no economist advocates raising taxes during a recession? You make the unwarranted assumption that raising taxes will automatically generate more revenue yet this is demonstrably untrue.

I am by no means a financial/tax expert.

More to the point of the thread, neither are the nuns. This is an economic issue, not a moral one, and the sisters bring no valuable insight to the debate. They are presenting their political opinions as if they were moral teachings when in fact there is no connection between the two.

I find it kind of curous that you are speaking in terms of good and evil here? Who’s the good guy and who’s the evil one?

The fact that we are talking about nuns here and not a handful of otherwise uninformed women automatically made this debate about good and evil. That was their whole purpose for getting involved, to morally browbeat people into supporting their personal political preferences.

Ender