Nuns get involved in the battle for the White House

[Elizabeth502]

Definition = that cannot be removed, washed away, or erased

or rationalized away, or intellectualized away, or declared non-existent due to emotional disappointment.

Even after excommunication, and outside of the Church, one is still Catholic.

Therefore, for such an indelibly marked member, it is inaccurate for him or her to refer to the Catholic Church as “your” Church. It is, by your logic and the Church’s logic, their Church also, and permanently.

We may be talking semantics, but once a Catholic always a Catholic.

And therefore, one is indelibly both a son or daughter of God (as all people are) and a son or daughter of Holy Mother Church – a phrase which applies to all baptized Catholics. And in such a relationship, the baptized, indelibly Catholic member has no private authority to declare the moral teachings of that Church null and void, to declare himself or herself outside the authority of the Church, or to rearranage the Church’s absolute moral positions, subordinating some to secular versions of morality.

One thing that is indelible about the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church is that she is logical.

 

[Lapey]

or rationalized away, or intellectualized away, or declared non-existent due to emotional disappointment.

Therefore, for such an indelibly marked member, it is inaccurate for him or her to refer to the Catholic Church as “your” Church. It is, by your logic and the Church’s logic, their Church also, and permanently.

And therefore, one is indelibly both a son or daughter of God (as all people are) and a son or daughter of Holy Mother Church – a phrase which applies to all baptized Catholics. And in such a relationship, the baptized, indelibly Catholic member has no private authority to declare the moral teachings of that Church null and void, to declare himself or herself outside the authoirty of the Church, or to rearranage the Church’s absolute moral positions, subordinating some to secular versions of morality.

One thing that is indelible about the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church is that she is logical.

WOW!!! Well said sister!!!:tiphat:

 

[kimmielittle]

Exactly…outside of the Church but as I teach in baptismal seminars, that mark is there forever. We get confused by thinking someone who is excommunicated or chooses to leave they no longer are Catholic, not true. The mark is still there, it may not be obvious because of the obstinate rejection of the fullness of truth but they are still Catholic.

Yeppers!!!

I’m happy to be both - with the help of reconciliation

 

[kimmielittle]

or rationalized away, or intellectualized away, or declared non-existent due to emotional disappointment.

Therefore, for such an indelibly marked member, it is inaccurate for him or her to refer to the Catholic Church as “your” Church. It is, by your logic and the Church’s logic, their Church also, and permanently.

And therefore, one is indelibly both a son or daughter of God (as all people are) and a son or daughter of Holy Mother Church – a phrase which applies to all baptized Catholics. And in such a relationship, the baptized, indelibly Catholic member has no private authority to declare the moral teachings of that Church null and void, to declare himself or herself outside the authority of the Church, or to rearranage the Church’s absolute moral positions, subordinating some to secular versions of morality.

One thing that is indelible about the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church is that she is logical.

 

[CMatt25]

The biggest thing that stands out in your post is: “My, my, my, my.”

If this was supposed to offend me, it didn’t. You asked about my faith. If you had asked me about Mitt Romney’s faith who Sister Simone seems to be opposing in his battle for the WH with Barack Obama, I might have said “Mitt” 4 times. Maybe even 5. God’s blessings to each of us as we walk in faith. Peace.

 

[Ender]

I never said the death penalty was any where equal to abortion, not even close. It’s still not necessary in America however. Don’t you agree?

No … but that’s a discussion for another thread. What I object to is discussing abortion and capital punishment as if there was some kind of moral connection between the two. There isn’t. One action is moral, the other immoral. Again, this is just another issue seized upon to impute some sort of moral equivalency between “liberalism” and “conservatism.” It is as invalid to assert it by condemning capital punishment as it is to assert it by condemning (as the nuns are doing) Republican economic policies. This is not a “lesser of two evils” choice. The choice for liberals is between evil and error (from their perspective). Conservatives face no such dilemma; their choices are entirely prudential: is it better to do X or Y (where both options are morally valid)?

We may be talking semantics, but once a Catholic always a Catholic.

Not according to Pius XII.

Ender

 

[Lapey]

No … but that’s a discussion for another thread. What I object to is discussing abortion and capital punishment as if there was some kind of moral connection between the two. There isn’t. One action is moral, the other immoral. Again, this is just another issue seized upon to impute some sort of moral equivalency between “liberalism” and “conservatism.” It is as invalid to assert it by condemning capital punishment as it is to assert it by condemning (as the nuns are doing) Republican economic policies. This is not a “lesser of two evils” choice. The choice for liberals is between evil and error (from their perspective). Conservatives face no such dilemma; their choices are entirely prudential: is it better to do X or Y (where both options are morally valid)?
Not according to Pius XII.

Ender

Again, I did not equate the two…and we’ll have to agree to disagree whether CP is moral in America or not, Mother Church says no except for extreme cases where there is no option of life incarceration and separation from the general population. In America, this is slim and none, we have the means.

Please provide any Church document that contradicts what I said. If you can find one, even from Pope Pius XII, I’d like to see it. Canon law says there is an indelible mark placed on the soul; I believe that canon law speaks what the Church believes.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Again, I did not equate the two…and we’ll have to agree to disagree whether CP is moral in America or not, Mother Church says no except for extreme cases where there is no option of life incarceration and separation from the general population. In America, this is slim and none, we have the means.

Actually, we don’t have the means presently. It would require the building and staffing of more supermax prisons for that. We have the resources, but are unlikely to spend them for that…at least not right now.

 

[pismopal]

No maybe when I read the Gospels I just happen to believe Christ was more liberal than you believe.

Lets get this straightened out before you do harm to yourself…YOU are a liberal…I am a conservative…Christ is GOD.

 

[Lochias]

If this was supposed to offend me, it didn’t. You asked about my faith. If you had asked me about Mitt Romney’s faith who Sister Simone seems to be opposing in his battle for the WH with Barack Obama, I might have said “Mitt” 4 times. Maybe even 5. God’s blessings to each of us as we walk in faith. Peace.

Wasn’t trying to offend you, just making a point. Which you have apparently missed.

 

[estesbob]

Again, I did not equate the two…and we’ll have to agree to disagree whether CP is moral in America or not, Mother Church says no except for extreme cases where there is no option of life incarceration and separation from the general population. In America, this is slim and none, we have the means.

Please provide any Church document that contradicts what I said. If you can find one, even from Pope Pius XII, I’d like to see it. Canon law says there is an indelible mark placed on the soul; I believe that canon law speaks what the Church believes.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Lapey]

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

We have already all agreed upon this…

Abortion = intrinsic evil
CP = not intrinsic evil

Never said anything different, just that it is not necessary in USA. Legal, yes, necessary, no.

 

[kimmielittle]

Obama backed IPAB ‘death panel’ again, despite bipartisan support for its repeal.

westernjournalism.com/obama-backs-death-panels-at-debate/

 

[estesbob]

We have already all agreed upon this…

Abortion = intrinsic evil
CP = not intrinsic evil

Never said anything different, just that it is not necessary in USA. Legal, yes, necessary, no.

I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances. Our Church does not.

 

[Ender]

Again, I did not equate the two…and we’ll have to agree to disagree whether CP is moral in America or not…

The position in the catechism is not that it is immoral to use capital punishment but that as a practical matter it is counterproductive, and it should surely be understood that morality does not change from one time to another … or from one place to another.

Please provide any Church document that contradicts what I said. If you can find one, even from Pope Pius XII, I’d like to see it.

There are at least a dozen such references but here is the most recent:*2266 “The traditional teaching of the church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.” *(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992)
I will point out that this is typically what happens when the subject of capital punishment arises: the real discussion, which should be about the positions liberals have staked out on abortion et al - and which truly are immoral - gets lost as this side issue takes over the debate. As a tactic it really is remarkably effective. Typically the pro-life side vigorously defends the idea that capital punishment is immoral, thus fortifying the argument of the pro-abortion side that conservatives support evil. We have two groups of conservatives challenging one another on an issue of little significance which redirects all the attention from the pro-abortion side. It really is a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose issue for them.

Ender

 

[Lapey]

The position in the catechism is not that it is immoral to use capital punishment but that as a practical matter it is counterproductive, and it should surely be understood that morality does not change from one time to another … or from one place to another.
There are at least a dozen such references but here is the most recent:*2266 “The traditional teaching of the church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.” *(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992)
I will point out that this is typically what happens when the subject of capital punishment arises: the real discussion, which should be about the positions liberals have staked out on abortion et al - and which truly are immoral - gets lost as this side issue takes over the debate. As a tactic it really is remarkably effective. Typically the pro-life side vigorously defends the idea that capital punishment is immoral, thus fortifying the argument of the pro-abortion side that conservatives support evil. We have two groups of conservatives challenging one another on an issue of little significance which redirects all the attention from the pro-abortion side. It really is a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose issue for them.

Ender

Done with this discussion.