Nuns treated poorly

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Just what exactly do you claim is “not right” about my article? That I personally witnessed these things going on in Italy? That nuns sign up to do a particular charism spelled out in their constitutions and to go against those constitutions to be unpaid labor of individual priests or communities of religious brothers is an abuse? It is one thing for a religious sister whose constitution allows servitude towards males to cook and clean and do housekeeping for religious brothers and priests. It is quite another for those whose stated charism is otherwise to do so. It’s called an abuse. It would be just as much an abuse as when the bishops in the USA imported religious nuns and forced them to teach (when their charism was monasticism, cloister). Just because many of the religious sisters in the USA are no longer treated as mere rectory housekeepers doesn’t mean that it isn’t part of our history either.
 
I think that what they are saying is that sometimes an expectation that the nuns will live a life of service and a life of servitude. In some places things may be going too far.
 
Are they not allowed to demand re assignment? Surely they aren’t forced to be there against their will
 
May I ask for a brief description of how priests live in the US, please? [The US is the richest country in the world, there are bound to be many differences.]

Do they normally live on parish grounds or rent a house? Do they live inside the church or have a separate house? Do they have fixed or variable income - depending on offerings? Is it normal for them to hire paid help or is everything provided for by parishioners voluntarily? Is their salary around “minimum wage” - how far does this allow for a decent living given US living costs? [These questions are in no way indiscreet since it is a matter of public knowledge.]

I will give a counter example: In downtown Lisabon [in the center of a western European capital] before the priests were given minimum wage (by concordata between church and State) in the 60’s and 70’s. There was one priest with 5 churches in his parish. There only a few parishioners went to mass, most were poor, and offerings were few. The priest recounted that in those days offerings allowed only for paying monthly utilities costs. And that left the priest without a salary, and without money to eat.

In those days, it were normally the rural priests who were better off since they received plentiful agricultural offerings and had wine and other goods.

Today the situation has inverted. The priests with urban parishes make above minimum wage because offerings in cities allow them some margin (around 200€-300€) above minimum wage. The excess is given to pay the minimum wage of rural parish priests who’s parishes don’t give enough offerings to pay them minimum wage plus social security. And again this Easter, folks in my parish will give their “easterly renunciation” which allows to barely meet the minimum wage of the priest. [And it takes 4 parishes to pay “minimum wage” to this one priest.]

Then we would have to ask the missionaries, living in poor countries, how exactly they eat and clothes themselves. And I do believe, the majority of the world is poor and the religious share in that poverty.
 
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There are orders of sisters in which the members are indistinguishable from much of the public; who work in banks, as lawyers, and so on. They can live in “community” or not, as they choose. I assume they do contribute their earnings to their communities.

Nobody is keeping any sisters in chains. If the sisters in question don’t think their way of life is fair, then perhaps they ought to join one of those more secular orders before those orders die out completely.
 
Your message may not be intentionally offensive, but I question the spirit in which you write. A sister who does not wear a habit is not “more secular” than any other sister. She takes vows that are canonical and lives by a constitution that is approved either by Rome or by her diocesan bishop. Those communities are not all “dying out.” Many are quite fine, thank you very much. I do not know a single sister who works as a banker, but I do know several who are attorneys; most use their professional training to offer legal services to the poor, who could not otherwise afford professional services of that sort. The same is true for sisters who are medical doctors, etc.

And, if you take the article seriously, as well as other sources that are based on evidence, some sisters ARE “kept in chains.” Even today, some bishops bring sisters to the US from other countries, some of whom are not educated or able to adjust without help to conditions in this country. Then the bishops either abandon them or their successors do. Sometimes these women don’t even have the financial resources to return to their native lands. How do I know this? I have seen reports – official reports – filed with the 4-conference fund for religious retirement, in which such communities are found to be living in total penury.

I realize such a thing is not pleasant to hear, but it is true.
 
adgloriam said:
May I ask for a brief description of how priests live in the US, please? [The US is the richest country in the world, there are bound to be many differences.]
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In my diocese (the Diocese of Brooklyn, in New York) and the neighboring Archdiocese of New York, diocesan priests are paid a relatively small salary. They are given living accommodations, usually in the rectory of the parish they serve. They receive health insurance coverage, and contributions to a retirement fund. There are exceptions, but this is the norm. The quality of the living accommodations varies, as you might imagine, with the wealth of the parish in which they’re located. I’ve been in some that are pretty luxurious, and I’ve been in some that were in poor parishes, and were in dire need of repair, and cold and leaky.

Priests in religious orders (for example, Jesuits) are not diocesan priests and not covered by this arrangement, and usually have taken a vow of poverty anyway.
 
I’d bet that vow doesn’t hold th to being obedient to mistreatment.
 
true, which is why this case is a serious abuse of power, if correct.
 
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nunsuch said:
Then the bishops either abandon them or their successors do.
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Has any such case been echoed through publicly available and reputable catholic channels? Without doubting you, I would like to ask for a reference if you can provide. I hope you appreciate I find this hard to understand.

@Cloisters can you shed some light on this please?
 
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I don’t know if it is publicly available or not. But I am a tenured professor and scholar who has done the archival research; I don’t know if Cloisters has. [I have been to about 6 dozen sisters’ archives in the US.] As for the vow of obedience, it is to God, not to any cleric.
 
I had been avoiding this thread, but now that I’ve been “nabbed”, I guess I’m going to have to comment, considering the immense ignorance I have of the subject.

I can only say that I’d never heard of a religious community being turned out on their ear. Gives us another prayer intention where the clergy are concerned. That’s almost as bad as protecting pedophiles. And I find it extremely disturbing. Sounds like a gap in canon law, if not in just plain good manners.

Bringing in a foreign group of sisters, then abandoning them, reminds me of a girl jockey being named on a horse, then being switched out for a guy jock just before the race. The Jockey’s Guild got a rule passed that says you have to pay both jockeys if that happens. Surely something needs to be addressed with legislation.

As far as nuns being permitted to eat with those they serve – would they want to? Or do their constitutions forbid them from doing so? We were told in nursing school that we should never eat with a patient, because eating was a social activity, and would begin to build a relationship. Would the sisters eating with the clergy they serve be a cause for scandal?

Only one sister was quoted in the article, which to me, as a writer, is too vague. I’ve never spent time in convent archives, nor have I witnessed “abuse” of nuns by clergy. The sisters left to penury are certainly offering a sacrifice. I pray they find a resolution and quickly.

Blessings,
Mrs Cloisters OP
Lay Dominican
http://cloisters.tripod.com/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/charity/
 
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The Bishop has authority over the entire diocese. The order was approved by the Pope which means that it is under the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope and all Catholic are under the authority of the Bishop of the Diocese.
 
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Actually, this is ONLY true for very limited things. I have published 3 articles on this subject; I have also read at least 4 canon law dissertations on the subject of bishops’ canonical jurisdiction over religious of both diocesan and pontifical right. The authority that sisters live by is their approved constitutions and canon law. Neither gives members of the hierarchy free reign–their jurisdiction is very limited.

I do not know of any current constitution of an apostolic congregation (who are the only ones who would do housekeeping) that restricts who sisters eat with. There may be a few, but they are anomalous.

Cloister, I’m glad you have not heard of sisters being turned out on their ear. I know of many, both historically and in the past 20 years.

I would only suggest–as one who has done extensive research on this subject and who has published extensively, as well, that you be very careful about sweeping claims. These are extremely complex issues.
 
nunsuch said:
I would only suggest–as one who has done extensive research on this subject and who has published extensively, as well, that you be very careful about sweeping claims. These are extremely complex issues.
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@nunsuch Was this meant for me? One thing I find very annoying about these forums is the lack of precise clarity in the criticism.

If not, begging your pardon, ma’am.

BTW – would you please be so kind as to assist me with a thread regarding the Sisters of St. Joseph?
 
No, it was not meant for you. Sorry—I’m at work and can’t say more now.
 
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I’m not sure what u mean by sweeping claims…I was not implying he has authority over what Soccer team you are rooting for :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
 
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No that is not true. The bishop of the diocese has no (or very limited) authority over religious orders that may operate in his territory, male or female.
 
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1ke said exactly what I meant. Don’t minimize the substance of what is being talked about here in referring to soccer teams. We are talking about meanings of authority and obedience in the context of religious life.
 
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