Nuns treated poorly

[tifischer]

I did not minimize this issue, my point was that you responded as though I was… I was clarifying that I was not minimalizing. I am sorry you missed understood the context of which I was speaking.

 

[poche]

Is it maybe a situation that exists primarily in Italy?

 

[Benadam]

This statement by the editor is troubling to me. The bolded implies that there is no complaint from the nuns yet they are oppressed by their vows of obedience. So it seems to use the ol’ male oppression theme for something sensational…

Its editor, Lucetta Scaraffia, told the Associated Press: “Until now, no-one has had the courage to denounce these things. We try to give a voice to those who don’t have the courage to say these words.”

 

[SerraSemper]

Perhaps you might consider that in the actual article, reasons were given for why the religious sisters were not speaking out. Those reasons included reprisals from superiors and the fear of negative reprecussions on family members dependent on the charity and care of the religious community. In Rome, it is also an unspoken thing that if you want to advance, there are topics you avoid. Think about it. If it is that cardinal who decides whether you get that job who has the sisters cleaning his apartment, are you going to speak up against it? Or if there are Catholics who believe that women are created to be doormats, do you think they’d be sympathetic to one who writes about the lack of proper contracts for the sisters in Italy? It was a risky move to write the article in the Roman climate, and far from sensational in the normal sense. It would have been sensational in the USA but forbotten material in Roma.

 

[nunsuch]

Once again, sisters do NOT take vows of obedience to clerics! They take them to GOD. No vow compels anyone to do anything that is immoral, contrary to conscience, or contrary to Christian justice. Being oppressed and misused is all of these things.

The factor of fear is also very significant, as SerraSemper notes. Anyone familiar with the history of religious life–not just in Italy, but also in the US and, indeed, almost anywhere–knows that intimidation has always been a problem. I am NOT saying it is universal, but that it is nothing new. Clerics and religious are human, and subject to the full panoply of human failings.

 

[Benadam]

Once again, sisters do NOT take vows of obedience to clerics!

I know that. I’m not blaming the clerics.

 

[adgloriam]

Would rightly thinking lay and ordained faithful be so quick to donate (…) siphoned off from their stated mission to be underpaid or unpaid servants

I’m not satisfied with one or the other parish priest, and I pay them nonetheless. I can’t leave them deprived of my contribution to their livelihood.

A teaching or nursing community has no business scrubbing the toilets

I know well-off people who scrub their own toilets. Were a friend to be in dire straits unable to tend for himself I would help with his menial tasks the best I could.

where men can overlook the intellectual abilities of religious women

I have never heard of a religious man not giving due value to religious vocations of woman.

why can’t it work the same way for men? Why can’t men pick up a broom or do their laundry or take a hand in the kitchen?

Many of them actually do you know.

why can’t lay people be hired at just wages?

I dont know, in most parishes the lay take care of this on a volunteer basis.

why not do the same for male “recruits” at seminaries?

I don’t know if they don’t. But I do know it is not easy for a man to look after himself for an entire lifetime without some help from his wife or family. And I know some monks who start with the menial tasks before going to seminary.

as an integral part of the formation program.

I suppose the seminarian would be busy getting through the first years of Philosophy and Theology like other college students. I have seen some entering monasteries accomplishing all sorts of menial tasks, and I took a little part in some of those tasks.

“service to female religious communities” as part of their charism

Actually, some rules predict spiritual direction and other services. Don’t they? Someone has to tend to those long confession lines. And run around from parish to parish saying mass, funerals, baptism, etc…

to start a community dedicated solely to providing menial services

I think such communities exist. Only they are broader in scope and provide both for the laity and the clergy.

vast numbers of women religious being exploited in Italy.

I believe “exploited” may be an exagerated word. For a woman (or man) religious to spend some years in Rome might be a dream. Most religious orders have their headquarters in Rome, and some of those religious are bound to be fulfilling several task during their stays there.

 

[SerraSemper]

The Lord to the Rich Man who scorned Lazarus: even if there were a heaven sent sign still he would not believe. I don’t know know what exactly would satisfy you adgloriam, because the theology and law of consecrated life are a far cry from what you appear to imagine it to be. You have no idea as to the actual situation in Italy. I LIVE there and know people in this situation. Also, because of my specialization, I happen to advise bishops and communities and individuals throughout the globe. Am I a liar? Is the Vatican newspaper a liar for reporting facts, not opinions (the existence of a contract or its lack thereof has to do with a fact not an opinion)? Sheesh. I am a perita (expert) on consecrated life, having a diploma from the Vatican’s Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life to that effect, a canon lawyer, and a Bride of Christ myself. Why would I have any incentive to endanger my soul to proclaim something false?