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Maria1212
Guest
This was an interesting article, although I don`t agree with the comment that ordaining women or allowing priests to marry is something the Catholic Church needs to “consider.” There will be a follow-up article in the NYT on Monday.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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Drilling4Truth
Guest
One of the things that initially drew me into discernment to the religious life was that it is a great sacrifice. I found very appealing the idea of giving up all personal ambitions and submitting totally to a way of life that was different, extreme and counter-cultural. The idea of opening up the priesthood to just anyone sort of removes that romantic aspect of doing something not everyone is called to do.
Far too many people, Catholic and non-Catholic, seem to view the priesthood as a job instead of a vocation. This was one of my main issues for leaving my previous denomination, which allows women to be ordained yet the denomination is dwindling fast.
Far too many people, Catholic and non-Catholic, seem to view the priesthood as a job instead of a vocation. This was one of my main issues for leaving my previous denomination, which allows women to be ordained yet the denomination is dwindling fast.
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JReducation
Guest
That was an awesome article. Thanks for sharing it. We have had some missionary priests, but I don’t think it’s the same situation. Our parish is staffed by an international religious order.
I have met two priests from Africa and they were really very nice men and very intelligent. I was also impressed by their manners.
JR
I have met two priests from Africa and they were really very nice men and very intelligent. I was also impressed by their manners.
JR
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Elizabeth502
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debraran
Guest
Here is another I think:
nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29priest.html?hp
If you go to NYtimes.com they have videos and other articles too.
I found the articles very inspiring, depressing and a little scary at times. The depressing was in part by some of the reaction of the parish, but that was in part to be expected. We have a priest from Nigeria who is helping another priest because we have 2 churches now. He was so happy to become a priest, tears fell down his face, and I know the apathy of the US took some getting used too. One priest spoke on the Times site that they didn’t have a vocation since 2004 in their area. I am lucky that in our area of CT, it’s not that bad yet, but many priests are aging.
The Domincan church near me does well, they always seem to have new priests (30 in last class I think) but I think today, that many priests seem attracted to groups like the Dominicans or communitys like the Franscian Friars and not to be parish priests.
Any thoughts on that?
nytimes.com/2008/12/29/us/29priest.html?hp
If you go to NYtimes.com they have videos and other articles too.
I found the articles very inspiring, depressing and a little scary at times. The depressing was in part by some of the reaction of the parish, but that was in part to be expected. We have a priest from Nigeria who is helping another priest because we have 2 churches now. He was so happy to become a priest, tears fell down his face, and I know the apathy of the US took some getting used too. One priest spoke on the Times site that they didn’t have a vocation since 2004 in their area. I am lucky that in our area of CT, it’s not that bad yet, but many priests are aging.
The Domincan church near me does well, they always seem to have new priests (30 in last class I think) but I think today, that many priests seem attracted to groups like the Dominicans or communitys like the Franscian Friars and not to be parish priests.
Any thoughts on that?
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JReducation
Guest
Men who enter the Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites and so forth have been called to the Consecrated Life and the priesthood. They are religious and priests. There is a difference between the consecrated life and the priesthood. Some men may be called to both.
There seems to be a increase in vocations to the consecrated life, not only among men, but also among women. Look at the many new religious congregations that are coming up around the world.
Many men want to be religious. They are attracted to Dominic, Francis, Teresa of Avila, Benedict and so forth.
The difference is that in the religious communities, you are a religious first. You may not be ordained to the priesthood until you have completed your formation to religious life, which takes about six to eight years. After you make your final vows, you have to ask your community for permission to be ordained. The community reserves the right to deny that permission and it has been done in many case. Some religious communities need to keep the numbers of priests down to preserve their charism.
Also, many religious communities are not committed to parish minitry. They help bishops when they can by taking on parishes. But they are not founded for parish ministry and they try to avoid taking on new parishes for fear that they will turn into a community of parish priests.
Some of the older communities experienced this and are desperately trying to pull in their religious who become too comfortable living in a parish, away from the community.
Finally, the laity makes life very difficult for priests who are religious. Therefore, many of them prefer to be assigned to non parish minisrtry. The laity has a way of demanding that a priest be available to the parish full-time, but relgious are not meant to do that. They have to be free for community prayer, recreation, meals, retreats, meetings and other community activities. They often get criticized for working a regular 8-4 day. We don’t often understand that a religious community is a family. These men have an obligation to their family.
That’s why Christ calls some men to be secular priests. Diocesan priests do not belong to a religious family. They are more free to attend to the diocesan and parish needs of the faithful and of course it’s an entirely separate calling from the call to the consecrated life.
Fraternally,
JR
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debraran
Guest
I understand that. I talked to a young man once how I would have prefered a community, not liking being alone, he was just the opposite. He reminded me that in a community, lets say for example, Fr. Groechels, you are a “family”, there are many priests and brothers, but you don’t have much time to do what you might like…everything is on a schedule and someone else is in charge. That would be the hardest for him, being a parish priest, he would have duties, masses, funerals, weddings, all the rest, but he also could schedule things the way he wanted to some degree.
I saw that in my old parish, new priests, new mass times, confession times, etc. Weekends could be having meetings or watching a football game. I can see beauty in both worlds but I also can see why a thristy man or woman, examining a vocation, would be drawn to one that centered in prayer and good works everyday. We need both, but a parish priest has much more room to lose why he went into the seminary today.
I saw that in my old parish, new priests, new mass times, confession times, etc. Weekends could be having meetings or watching a football game. I can see beauty in both worlds but I also can see why a thristy man or woman, examining a vocation, would be drawn to one that centered in prayer and good works everyday. We need both, but a parish priest has much more room to lose why he went into the seminary today.
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debraran
Guest
nytimes.com/2008/12/30/us/30priest.html?pagewanted=2&sq=priests&st=cse&scp=2
In the newest edition, this excerpt gave me pause…I guess I never thought of it as “buying priests” in a sense. This makes my prayers for priests become more fervent, I have always prayed, but it had become more “routine”. Sometimes you need a nudge to see things more clearly.
The Diocese of Irinjalakuda has 10 priests serving in the United States, as well as 3 in Germany, 2 in Canada and one in England. Four are studying in Rome.
In the United States, four of the Indian priests are in Birmingham, Ala., where the former bishop arranged about seven years ago to pay the Diocese of Irinjalakuda $5,000 a year for each borrowed priest, an official in the Indian diocese said. Many bishops have such arrangements, giving them a motive other than generosity to loan out their priests.
Bishop Pazhayattil said he chose which priests to send abroad very carefully. Some who volunteer, he said, could easily go astray so far from home.
In the newest edition, this excerpt gave me pause…I guess I never thought of it as “buying priests” in a sense. This makes my prayers for priests become more fervent, I have always prayed, but it had become more “routine”. Sometimes you need a nudge to see things more clearly.
The Diocese of Irinjalakuda has 10 priests serving in the United States, as well as 3 in Germany, 2 in Canada and one in England. Four are studying in Rome.
In the United States, four of the Indian priests are in Birmingham, Ala., where the former bishop arranged about seven years ago to pay the Diocese of Irinjalakuda $5,000 a year for each borrowed priest, an official in the Indian diocese said. Many bishops have such arrangements, giving them a motive other than generosity to loan out their priests.
Bishop Pazhayattil said he chose which priests to send abroad very carefully. Some who volunteer, he said, could easily go astray so far from home.
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Freshman88
Guest
Traditionalist orders certainly don’t face this problem 
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debraran
Guest
True, but they don’t run the parish’s around the US. I think the Dominican’s near me seem to be doing okay, we have 3 priests in our parish and a few retired priests that do mass, but for them, it’s still lower than their “normal”.
I hope and pray it gets better, what would we do if we couldn’t get foreign priests to come to the US?
I hope and pray it gets better, what would we do if we couldn’t get foreign priests to come to the US?
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ChristinaM
Guest
This paragraph was very telling:
In the parish where I was married, we had a wonderful Mexican priest. He would preach on vocations and exhort the families of the parish to have the kind of family life that these Indian families have. He would say “Priests don’t grow on trees, they come from families like yours!” It seems that in many families, so many things are more important than God. If we show our children that our faith is only important for 1 hour on Sunday how can we expect to have priests in the next generation?
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JReducation
Guest
You are very right.This paragraph was very telling:
In the parish where I was married, we had a wonderful Mexican priest. He would preach on vocations and exhort the families of the parish to have the kind of family life that these Indian families have. He would say “Priests don’t grow on trees, they come from families like yours!” It seems that in many families, so many things are more important than God. If we show our children that our faith is only important for 1 hour on Sunday how can we expect to have priests in the next generation?
I’ll add here that I’m not sure what one calls “traditionalists” orders. But many of the old orders, such as Benedictine, Dominican, Carmelite, Franciscans and Augustinians are not doing badly for vocations.
The Dominicans and the Franciscan Family are doing well. The Franciscans have started two new congregations in the USA within the last 25 years: Franciscans of the Renewal and the Missionaries of the Eternal Word. Although they are not juridically part of the Franciscan Order, they sprung from the Franciscan Order and that’s part of the idea of the Franciscan Family, to bring new life.
The Dominicans have inspired many young men to join their friars and have inspired several new congregations of women. My favorite as the Sisters of Life.
We are very short of secular priests and it seems to be by regions. The Archdiocese of Miami has a fair number of young men. The Diocese of Arlington does too. So does the Archdiocese of Boston.
We also have to remember that some religious orders are not ordaining as many, not because they don’t have the numbers, but because they are returning to the charism of their founders. For many orders, their charism was to be a Brotherhood. Other orders are not taking on new parishes, because it is in conflict with their charism. They served as parish priests for too long and have lost their members. Their young men want to be religious and live the life that the founders proposed.
I know several Franciscan friars, especially Capuchins, who are not interested in serving in parishes. They want to do what Francis ordained for them. They want to serve their brotherhood, they want to preach, go to the missions, live quiet lives of contemplation, work among the poor and the young, they want to write and study, they want to be spiritual guides or serve in broader reaching ministries.
The Missionaries of the Eternal Word follow the spirit of St. Francis. They do not take up parishes. The Franciscans of the Renewal have many ordained men, but they do not make parish ministry their priority either. Their priority is the poor.
What we need is to promote more vocations to religious communities that are parish oriented or for those young men who are not called to be consecrated religious, we should promote the secular priesthood.
Like I said before, the Diocese of Arlington has a large number of secular priests. This has freed up the religious to be what they were called to be, consecrated men living in community and prayer.
In the USA we have become very dependent on having the religious rescue us. The laity does not realize that they did this because we were a mission country and the bishops needed help; but this was not their vocation. Now that the Church is telling religious to go back to community living and to recover their original charism, we are in a massive shortage.
Religious are scrambling to regroup and attract more vocations to their original way of life. Diocese are scrambling for more secular vocations.
This is going to take time, because not only do we have this historical reality to deal with, we also have a much cooler and less “Catholic friendly” world.
JR
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I have two thoughts on what you wrote JR.We also have to remember that some religious orders are not ordaining as many, not because they don’t have the numbers, but because they are returning to the charism of their founders. For many orders, their charism was to be a Brotherhood. Other orders are not taking on new parishes, because it is in conflict with their charism. They served as parish priests for too long and have lost their members. Their young men want to be religious and live the life that the founders proposed.
I know several Franciscan friars, especially Capuchins, who are not interested in serving in parishes. They want to do what Francis ordained for them. They want to serve their brotherhood, they want to preach, go to the missions, live quiet lives of contemplation, work among the poor and the young, they want to write and study, they want to be spiritual guides or serve in broader reaching ministries.
The Missionaries of the Eternal Word follow the spirit of St. Francis. They do not take up parishes. The Franciscans of the Renewal have many ordained men, but they do not make parish ministry their priority either. Their priority is the poor.
What we need is to promote more vocations to religious communities that are parish oriented or for those young men who are not called to be consecrated religious, we should promote the secular priesthood.
Like I said before, the Diocese of Arlington has a large number of secular priests. This has freed up the religious to be what they were called to be, consecrated men living in community and prayer.
In the USA we have become very dependent on having the religious rescue us. The laity does not realize that they did this because we were a mission country and the bishops needed help; but this was not their vocation. Now that the Church is telling religious to go back to community living and to recover their original charism, we are in a massive shortage.
Religious are scrambling to regroup and attract more vocations to their original way of life. Diocese are scrambling for more secular vocations.
This is going to take time, because not only do we have this historical reality to deal with, we also have a much cooler and less “Catholic friendly” world.
JR
A) I hope that the renewed focus on brotherhood will have a domino effect and bring more people to a deeper faith. This will lead to more vocations both monastic and priestly.
B) I hope that some brothers don’t reject a more difficult call by God to be a priest based on their personal preference. I know that may sound uncharitable, but religious are people too. Their desire to live in monastic community could just as easily be a rejection of God’s call to serve in a parish. I don’t know…only God and the individual being called know.
Pax,
Robert
PS I think the numbers are up at Mt Angel Abbey near us, but we could still use more!
mountangelabbey.org/seminary/index.html
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JReducation
Guest
First, you have to remember that the call to religious life is not an easy one. Community life is not easy. Try it. Obedience is less easy.
The other that one must remember is that one does not become a religious to be a priest, but to be a religious, unless you are joining a community that is a clerical congregation or order such as the Jesuits.
If you are joining the Capuchins or the Marianists or Secular Franciscans, you are joining to follow in the spirit of the founder, not to be a priest. The priesthod is a call within a call.
A friar who is a priest is simply put, a friar who received a call within the religiuos life. Many of these communities, especially Franciscans, Benedictines or Carmelites were never called to be parish priests. They have always had prests among their brothers. But they were called for a very specific way of life. The way of life takes precedence over the ministry. The ministry must emerge from the way of life.
In the case of a monastic community, the priesthood is a response to God’s call to serve hin in silence and solitude and to celebrate the Eucharist in silence and solitude for the salvation of the Church.
While mendicant communities such as the Franciscan communities, the priesthood is a call from Christ, but it comes through the brotherhood. The friars do not decide that they are going to be priests. This decision is left to the voice of Christ. Christ speaks through the Major Superior who is the only person who can authorize a friar to be a priest. All the friars are equal and all have the training and potential, but not all are selected by Christ. It is up to the Major Superior to decide whom Christ wants.
It is also up to the Major Superior to decide how an ordained friar can serve without risking the Franciscan charism of brotherhood, silence, prayer, and service to the poor.
We are going to see less religious in our parishes, because the Church wants them to recover their religious life. You can’t live religious life with one person living alone serving three or four parishes. Religious life is meant to be lived in community. The Holy See has made it clear to religious that religious life has to take priority over all other ministries, including parishes.
We as laity have often hurt our own cause when it comes to religious. We have oten interfered in their internal affairs and have treated some unfairly. In my parish, we have a Superior who is not a priest. He is a lay man, but he is a friar. The pastor is a priest and so are the associates. But they are subject to the Superior of the House. This was the first time that we had a local Superior who is not a priest. Many of the laity questioned his authority over the community. This was none of our business. The pastor is responsible for the parish. What the pastor does or not do within the community is not part of the parish’s affairs.
The initial reaction was to tell the bishop that the friars were leaving, because the laity could not respect the equality between a religious superior who is a lay man and a religious priest who is a pastor. They would not respect the internal hierarchy of the community. These things can put a bishop on the fence. He needs the religious and the internal affairs of the religiuos are not within his jurisdiction. If they appoint a lay man over the pastor, that’s their perrogative. That’s part of their recovery as a fraternity where all brothers are equal and all can hold office.
There was another case where the people wanted the Marianists to stay in a parish. The Brother Superior explained that they needed their Brothers to run a school. Their Brothers in the parish were priests. But the congrgation was founded as a teaching congregation. The Marianists had to leave the parish and return to teaching. They help out with Sunday masses, but they do not run the parish.
The same happens with many communities. They will help with Sunday masses, but they will not take up parishes to run, because it is not part of their calling.
It’s not an option for an easier life. Their life has its own set of difficulties. It’s an option for a consecrated life. The religious life is a consecrated life. The preisthood is a sacrament and a state within the Church. Some men are called to both, but not all are called to serve as parish priests. That is the role of the secular clergy.
JR
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I cut the quote down significantly…hope you don’t mind.The same happens with many communities. ** They will help with Sunday masses, but they will not take up parishes to run**, because it is not part of their calling.
It’s not an option for an easier life. Their life has its own set of difficulties. It’s an option for a consecrated life. The religious life is a consecrated life. The preisthood is a sacrament and a state within the Church. Some men are called to both, but not all are called to serve as parish priests. That is the role of the secular clergy.
JR
I’m completely okay with “helping” but not being parish priests. In fact, it would be great if, as the community grows, more help arrives. Parish priests in some areas have more than one parish. Our current pastor has our parish as his main parish, a secondary parish and takes classes at the University of Portland. Thankfully, the Holy Cross priests from U of P help out by filling in when he is at the other parish and/or taking an rare, but needed, break. Despite the incredibly busy parish he is now at, it is apparently better than the last assignment where he had to drive 2 hours each way to school.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like consecrated life and obedience are easy. I would still, however, contend that running a parish and dealing with lay people’s needs is more challenging. Our parish is very busy
I’m sure you join me in prayers to increase the numbers in both areas.
J
JReducation
Guest
First, I do join you in prayer for vocations.
Second, I agree with you that dealing with the laity is a pain in the neck. I work for the Church and the laity drives us crazy sometimes. People are not always reasonable. Thank God, you often run into some very nice and understanding folk and that makes up for the rest who are not so understanding.
This reminds me of something that happened in our parish. The friar who was assigned as the pastor has Cerebral Palsy. Has had it since childhood. Anyway, he uses canes or a chair. He always asks the congregation to take communion in the hand when they receive communion from him, because he has to prop himself on two crutches to distribute communion, hold the ciborium with one hand and the host with the other.
Some parishioners complained to the bishop because they did not want the “crippled” priest. The Chancery explained that they do not assign religious, but that this is done by the superior of the house and the major superior. They assign the pastor. And they also explained that there are other people distributing communion, if you want to receive on the tongue. There is always a secular deacon and two extraordinary ministers of holy communion.
The response back was that these people wanted communion on the tongue, but only from a priest. I’m not sure how it all got around, but it finally came back to the local superior. Of course the superior did not change the assignment, because the man is an excellent pastor and the parish is perfect for him. Everything is on one level. The school has an elevator. It’s a perfect match, a well trained pastor and an accessible facility.
After several years, the same people are now so attached to their pastor that they don’t want him transferred and the rotations are coming this summer. The pastor announced that this is his last year, because the community does not allow anyone to remain at one post more than six years, except friars who teach at the university. Now the complaint is, “Don’t take away our pastor.”
Lay people! Who understands us?
JR
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RobertLGarrett
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No kidding! We just went through a priest transition. Both are fantastic priests, but they are…wait for it…different.First, I do join you in prayer for vocations.
Second, I agree with you that dealing with the laity is a pain in the neck. I work for the Church and the laity drives us crazy sometimes. People are not always reasonable. Thank God, you often run into some very nice and understanding folk and that makes up for the rest who are not so understanding.
This reminds me of something that happened in our parish. The friar who was assigned as the pastor has Cerebral Palsy. Has had it since childhood. Anyway, he uses canes or a chair. He always asks the congregation to take communion in the hand when they receive communion from him, because he has to prop himself on two crutches to distribute communion, hold the ciborium with one hand and the host with the other.
Some parishioners complained to the bishop because they did not want the “crippled” priest. The Chancery explained that they do not assign religious, but that this is done by the superior of the house and the major superior. They assign the pastor. And they also explained that there are other people distributing communion, if you want to receive on the tongue. There is always a secular deacon and two extraordinary ministers of holy communion.
The response back was that these people wanted communion on the tongue, but only from a priest. I’m not sure how it all got around, but it finally came back to the local superior. Of course the superior did not change the assignment, because the man is an excellent pastor and the parish is perfect for him. Everything is on one level. The school has an elevator. It’s a perfect match, a well trained pastor and an accessible facility.
After several years, the same people are now so attached to their pastor that they don’t want him transferred and the rotations are coming this summer. The pastor announced that this is his last year, because the community does not allow anyone to remain at one post more than six years, except friars who teach at the university. Now the complaint is, “Don’t take away our pastor.”
Lay people! Who understands us?
JR
Thankfully, both are very orthodox and our new priest didn’t make any major changes. In fact, he has the audacity to expect the parishioners to take the lead on things.
Like our previous priest, he gets the mix of loving support and people who want to tell him how he should act as a priest. Thankfully, it is heavier in the loving support. Apparently, his past parish was downright mean to him. Other than my minor complaint about Confession lines being so long that people get turned away, I think our new priest is wonderful.
J
JReducation
Guest
No kidding! We just went through a priest transition. Both are fantastic priests, but they are…wait for it…different.
Thankfully, both are very orthodox and our new priest didn’t make any major changes. In fact, he has the audacity to expect the parishioners to take the lead on things.
Other than my minor complaint about Confession lines being so long that people get turned away, I think our new priest is wonderful.
I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be rude, but that was a point of contention in our parish too. The friars do not live on the parish grounds. Their friary is about 1/2 mile up the street and they come to the parish in one car. There are five who work in the parish, two priests and three lay brothers. So our confession lines are a little long.The Superior asked the pastor to make sure that all the friars were back at the friary for community recreation. That means that they bolt out of the confessional at a certain time, so they can all get back
Then the pastor proposed a change in time for confessions. That was not to the liking of many. They wanted the friars to change their recreation time, but that was not possible, because they have to pray the Liturgy of the Hours at a certain time and eat together at a certain time. They have to make sure that they eat early enough so one of them can celebrate the evening mass. The only solution was to move confessions up by 30 min.
I chuckled about the belly aching. Eventually people got used to the earlier confession time.
But you just reminded me of that and it made me chuckle. Why do we have to be so difficult with those who are doing us a favour?
JR
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Oh to have the extra help for Confession… That would be nice.
The Superior asked the pastor to make sure that all the friars were back at the friary for community recreation. That means that they bolt out of the confessional at a certain time, so they can all get back
Then the pastor proposed a change in time for confessions. That was not to the liking of many. They wanted the friars to change their recreation time, but that was not possible, because they have to pray the Liturgy of the Hours at a certain time and eat together at a certain time. They have to make sure that they eat early enough so one of them can celebrate the evening mass. The only solution was to move confessions up by 30 min.
I chuckled about the belly aching. Eventually people got used to the earlier confession time.
But you just reminded me of that and it made me chuckle. Why do we have to be so difficult with those who are doing us a favour?
JR
Call me difficult, if you will, but being turned away whilst in a state of mortal sin after a 1:15 hour wait is not a great experience. Some would be deterred from confessing in the future.
An extra priest would be very, very nice.
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