NYT article: priest shortage/foreign recruitment

[maggiemay2u]

I personally do not like African priests. I don’t understand why there is a need to recruit from other countries. it just does not make sense.

Isn’t that odd? I have never heard that expressed about the Irish priests who dotted the landscape for so long.

I am humbled and grateful for our many African, Chinese, Indian, Filipino, Vietnamese, and other courageous missionaries. Yes, they are occasionally hard to understand, but I can imagine it isn’t much different from Mrs O’Dywer trying to figure out exactly what Father Mahilovstski was trying to get across.

What I do find is the “imports” are true missionaries of the Word. They call a spade a spade and don’t equivocate on evil. Perhaps by our “progressive” laity standards they come across as very tough, indeed.

Many of the areas with theological centers have an abundance of visitors who provide service for room and board. The way I see it, we’re the big winners.

 

[JReducation]

I personally do not like African priests. I don’t understand why there is a need to recruit from other countries. it just does not make sense.

Is it because of the color of their skin? Not all Africans are black. Even if they were, it’s not important.

I went to mass at another parish today, where there is an African diocesan priest. I don’t know what country he’s from. He’s here to work in our tribunal as a canon lawyer.

To make this short and sweet, he preached such a moving homily on the Epiphany that you could hear a pin drop in Church. The most important thing that he said was that we should be as excited about this event as we are about Christmas and Easter. Had it not been for the Epiphany, our gentile anscestors would not have known the message of salvation. He pointed out the connection between the Epihany and Paul’s mission to our anscestors.

He said more, but that was the gist.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[StAnastasia]

You have to attend a private school and those are very expensive. Theology degrees only come in Master or higher.

JR, for the record, there are lower theology degrees: I have a theology degree lower than a masters, and I teach in a university that offers theology bachelors degrees.

StAnastsia

 

[JReducation]

JR, for the record, there are lower theology degrees: I have a theology degree lower than a masters, and I teach in a university that offers theology bachelors degrees.

StAnastsia

I understand that there are Bachelor’s Degrees in theology. But to have the title, Catholic Theologian, you must have an Master’s or higher and the approval of the local bishop. That is the requirement in most dioceses in accordance with a letter that John Paul II wrote many years ago regarding the role of theologians.

In our diocese you can’t be ordained without a BA in philosophy and an MA in theology. Our community accepts a minor in philosophy, but demands an MA in theology not only for those who are going to be ordained, but also for the brothers who are going into ministry outside the fraternity.

I understand from a Carmelite Friar on CAF that the Carmelites now have the same requirements of their priests and lay brothers, BA in philosophy and MA or MDiv in theology.

All the above want the four-year Masters, not two year MA. It looks like Pope Benedict is going to make it tougher to get a title as Catholic Theologian. But I have no idea what he is going to propose. Someone else on these threads may know.

JR

 

[StAnastasia]

I understand that there are Bachelor’s Degrees in theology. But to have the title, Catholic Theologian, you must have an Master’s or higher and the approval of the local bishop. That is the requirement in most dioceses in accordance with a letter that John Paul II wrote many years ago regarding the role of theologians.ng to propose. Someone else on these threads may know.JR

Thanks – I was interpreting you literally. We offer both undergraduate and graduate degrees in theology, but not PHDs, Another institution in which I teach occasionally offers only graduate degrees. I see what you mean about dioceses requiring full graduate degrees of priests.

StAnastasia

 

[chicago]

I think there were two problems with high school seminary. I know that we closed our own for two reasons.

1. The new requirements for theology degrees cannot be met at the high school level. They can only be met at the graduate school level. After high school there is still undergraduate. We’re looking at four years of high school, four years of undergraduate studies, and four years of graduate school to get a basic degree in theology. Most diocese and religious communities cannot fiancially sustain this. Nor are there enough professors to cover a range of 12 years of study.

While I don’t think the idea of high school level seminary was ever to directly train for the priesthood (it was always more preparatory in nature with the nature of fostering both educational and spiritual/human formation which made one more ready for the rigors of higher study and intense discernment) I will agree that there are no longer enough professors to cover that range at a cost effective level. Quigley was once the crown glory of the Archdiocese of Chicago, with instructors who often held doctorates or were working towards it. But in recent times, they were subject to the priest shortages and financial burdens which any other ministerial or educational service of the Church had to deal with. This meant a lot of compromises had to be made.

1. The other reason that they were closed was because the education that is provided in high school seminaries can be provided by private Catholic schools. Since high school seminaries can no longer prepare men for ministry. The education that they were providing was a college preparatory diploma and religious education. Private Catholic schools can provide this at no cost to the diocese, because they are owned by religious communities or by lay non-profits.

I would (somewhat) disagree with this analysis. While it is true that, essentially, the education which was seen in minor seminaries which still existed into contemporary times has often been akin to what is offered at other Catholic high schools, the formational focus and ability to provide something distinct always added another element which was not as easy to maintain in an environment which did not have vocational discernment at its core.

Further, the letter which Cardinal Mundelein wrote to his priests upon the building of a new high school seminary facility 90 years ago included an interesting statement about how it had been assumed that the normal Catholic educational system could produce all the vocations needed, but this had proven not to be true. It could be suggested that his statement has every bit as much veracity today as it did then.

In some dioceses, such as Arlington, VA their high school seminary was opened up to young women and the school re-chartered as a Diocesan High School. The diocese continues to run it, but it serves a larger student population. This reduces the cost to the diocese, because you can fill the school with students who can pay for the cost of operating it.

This gets at a larger issue of concern where Catholic education has often lost its roots as being a ministry to the needy who could not afford schooling. Today, all too often, it is academics only for the well to do.

There are some very good colleges and universities that offer very good education geared toward ministry. The problem again is cost.

Fraternally,

JR

How else could the cost factors be addressed in, perhaps, unique ways which would enable discernment without the great burden of overhead?

 

[StAnastasia]

I understand that you were trying to understand. There is holiness in trying to understand. The person who seeks to understand will arrive at truth, if he keeps searching. The reason behind these rules are not always self-evident. JR

Right. I had not meant to imply that all widowed deacons should remarry. I was merely pondering why marriage – regarded as good and holy for deacons the first time – should not be regarded as good and holy a second time.

StAnastasia

 

[wildleafblower]

StAnastasia;4625332:

JR, for the record, there are lower theology degrees: I have a theology degree lower than a masters, and I teach in a university that offers theology bachelors degrees.

StAnastsia

I understand that there are Bachelor’s Degrees in theology. But to have the title, Catholic Theologian, you must have an Master’s or higher and the approval of the local bishop. That is the requirement in most dioceses in accordance with a letter that John Paul II wrote many years ago regarding the role of theologians.

In our diocese you can’t be ordained without a BA in philosophy and an MA in theology. Our community accepts a minor in philosophy, but demands an MA in theology not only for those who are going to be ordained, but also for the brothers who are going into ministry outside the fraternity.

I understand from a Carmelite Friar on CAF that the Carmelites now have the same requirements of their priests and lay brothers, BA in philosophy and MA or MDiv in theology.

All the above want the four-year Masters, not two year MA. It looks like Pope Benedict is going to make it tougher to get a title as Catholic Theologian. But I have no idea what he is going to propose. Someone else on these threads may know.

JR

Hi JR. I’ve missed you. Thank you for the much needed information, which is absolutely correct. The Pope is getting upset by those who claim to be “Catholic Theologians” that are misdirecting his flock. God Bless YOU! Have a Blessed New Year. We’ll have to talk about Spirituality again in the future. I keep you in my prayers. The best to you and your children. Peace be with you~

 

[JReducation]

Hi JR. I’ve missed you. Thank you for the much needed information, which is absolutely correct. The Pope is getting upset by those who claim to be “Catholic Theologians” that are misdirecting his flock. God Bless YOU! Have a Blessed New Year. We’ll have to talk about Spirituality again in the future. I keep you in my prayers. The best to you and your children. Peace be with you~

Hey Leafblower, good to see you too. I’m not sure how much longer I’ll be around, but I’m here for now. Sometimes I get tired of the debates and the mud slinging. That’s when I need a break from CAF.

In answer to the above, to be a Catholic theologian one must have a graduate degree in theology and be licensed by the local bishop or a major religious superior. Another way is to receive the title from a chartered Catholic School of Theology that hires you as a full-professor.

Religious and priests who have an advanced degree in theoloy are not to use the title theologian, unless authorized to do so by their bishop or their major superior. All priests and deacons have advanced degrees in theology, most religious men do too. But they ARE NOT theologians.

Bishops are all theologians ex-oficio, unless they are Church Historians or Canon Lawyers. Church Historians and Canon-Lawyers are not theologians. Those disciplines are independent disciplines. You can be a Sacred Theology Doctor (STD), Doctor of Canon Law (JCD), or a Historian (PhD). In any case, only Doctors can become bishops.

This is a very expensive and time consuming academic venture. Currently, the average theology course costs about $1200.00. That’s a three credit course for one semester.

JR

 

[StAnastasia]

This is a very expensive and time consuming academic venture. Currently, the average theology course costs about $1200.00. That’s a three credit course for one semester.JR

JR, you are quite right about the expense. I just checked online the fees charged by my alma mater. My doctorate in theology cost me around $11,000. Now the same degree costs the poor students about 100,000. The institution where I earned my M.A. degrees (philosophy and theology) is about 50% more expensive than that!

All this in a job market in which the chances of earning a tenure-track position are vanishingly small. One friend paid his own way through (relying on his parents) and then became a Jesuit; other friends’ studies were paid by their orders (Holy Cross, Dominicans, Carmelites, Franciscans, Basilians). How it will play out in the future I don’t know at all.

StAnastasia

 

[chicago]

Bishops are all theologians ex-oficio, unless they are Church Historians or Canon Lawyers. Church Historians and Canon-Lawyers are not theologians. Those disciplines are independent disciplines. You can be a Sacred Theology Doctor (STD), Doctor of Canon Law (JCD), or a Historian (PhD). In any case, only Doctors can become bishops.

Am I understanding correctly that the pope will only appoint a priest who already holds a doctorate in one of the above fields to be a bishop?

I know that any bishop is awarded the title degree Doctor of Divinity (D.D.) by the Church. Would such alone suffice for the requirement?

 

[JReducation]

Am I understanding correctly that the pope will only appoint a priest who already holds a doctorate in one of the above fields to be a bishop?

I know that any bishop is awarded the title degree Doctor of Divinity (D.D.) by the Church. Would such alone suffice for the requirement?

Not any longer. The Code of 1983 says that he must be a Doctor or an equivalent. That would be an ecclesiastical licentiate. You can be admitted to an acclesiastical licentiate after you complete a Master’s Degree. But your Master’s Degree must be a four year Master’s in one of these fields.

You must have a four-year Bachelor’s Degree, a four-year Master’s degree and either a PhD or an ecclesiastical Licentiate which is about two to three more years of education. One additional year gives you an ecclesiastical Doctorate. But for each level you must write a thesis, dissertation and take comprehensive examinations or licensing board examinations.

John XXIII had two doctorates: Church History and Theology
Paul VI had two doctorates: Systematic (Aquinas) Theology and Ecclesiology
John Paul II had two doctorates: Philosophy and Systematic Theology
Benedict XVI has two doctorates: Bonaventurian Theology and Augustinian Theology

All bishops in the USA have either a PhD or a D.D. but the DD is only granted if you have the equivalent education of a Doctor between your master’s and your licentiate together.

Only the Pope can dispense with any of the requiremens for being consecrated a bishop.

If you are a member of a religious community you must also comply with their education requirements before you are allowed to ask for ordination.

A bishop who comes from a religious community has a long education track behind him. It’s very impressive.

Rumor has it that Pope Benedict may raise the academic requirements for all ordinations. He was trained in Europe where you must have two graduate degrees. American bishops usually have only one doctoral degree. By raising it, all bishops around the world would have the same amount of education and expertise.

Our Holy Father John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been very committed to raising the intellectual standard of Catholics. That’s the reason that Benedict always brings up the issue of Reason and Faith must go together.

It is a return to the tradition of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

JR

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Not any longer. The Code of 1983 says that he must be a Doctor or an equivalent. That would be an ecclesiastical licentiate. You can be admitted to an acclesiastical licentiate after you complete a Master’s Degree. But your Master’s Degree must be a four year Master’s in one of these fields.

You must have a four-year Bachelor’s Degree, a four-year Master’s degree and either a PhD or an ecclesiastical Licentiate which is about two to three more years of education. One additional year gives you an ecclesiastical Doctorate. But for each level you must write a thesis, dissertation and take comprehensive examinations or licensing board examinations.

John XXIII had two doctorates: Church History and Theology
Paul VI had two doctorates: Systematic (Aquinas) Theology and Ecclesiology
John Paul II had two doctorates: Philosophy and Systematic Theology
Benedict XVI has two doctorates: Bonaventurian Theology and Augustinian Theology

All bishops in the USA have either a PhD or a D.D. but the DD is only granted if you have the equivalent education of a Doctor between your master’s and your licentiate together.

Only the Pope can dispense with any of the requiremens for being consecrated a bishop.

If you are a member of a religious community you must also comply with their education requirements before you are allowed to ask for ordination.

A bishop who comes from a religious community has a long education track behind him. It’s very impressive.

Rumor has it that Pope Benedict may raise the academic requirements for all ordinations. ** He was trained in Europe where you must have two graduate degrees. American bishops usually have only one doctoral degree. **By raising it, all bishops around the world would have the same amount of education and expertise.

Our Holy Father John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been very committed to raising the intellectual standard of Catholics. That’s the reason that Benedict always brings up the issue of Reason and Faith must go together.

It is a return to the tradition of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

JR

Are you saying our bishops are a bunch of dummies? One doctorate…lightweights!

 

[chicago]

John XXIII had two doctorates: Church History and Theology

Paul VI had two doctorates: Systematic (Aquinas) Theology and Ecclesiology

John Paul II had two doctorates: Philosophy and Systematic Theology

Benedict XVI has two doctorates: Bonaventurian Theology and Augustinian Theology

What did John Paul I have? Two cups of coffee?

Only the Pope can dispense with any of the requiremens for being consecrated a bishop.

But since the pope appoints bishops, isn’t this moot?

 

[JReducation]

What did John Paul I have? Two cups of coffee?

I don’t know what John Paul I academic background was. I know that he had several degrees. But he was more famous for his pastoral work than his academic contributions to the Church.

But since the pope appoints bishops, isn’t this moot?

Now that you mention it, it is moot. You’re right. I’m not sure why they put that into the law.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[JReducation]

Are you saying our bishops are a bunch of dummies? One doctorate…lightweights!

It’s funny that you should mention that. I was reading a professional journal today on American education. I was surprised that in 1995 the USA was the leading country in college graduates among the 24 most developed nations of the world. In 2008 it was number 18 and most Bachelor Degrees obtained in the USA are not comparable with degree in other first world nations.

This certainly throws a monkey wrench in the level of academic preparation of our younger priests.

Too complicated. LOL

JR

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Married clergy should finally be allowed…AGAIN (as it had in the past)…to be an option for all priests in the Roman Rite, and not just among those who are converted non-Catholic ministers.

It’s a discipline, not a doctrine.

 

[JReducation]

Married clergy should finally be allowed…AGAIN (as it had in the past)…to be an option for all priests in the Roman Rite, and not just among those who are converted non-Catholic ministers.

It’s a discipline, not a doctrine.

Even if we allowed married men to become priests, it does not change the current economic situation. It is very expensive to become a priest in any rite at this point. The cost of the educational requirements are almost prohibitive to the average secular man. We’re talking about $25,000.00 a year for eight years if he enters as an undergrad.

If a married man were to be allowed ordination, he cannot join religious life. He would be a secular priest. The diocese is not financially responsible for his education, though most dioceses do help quite a bit.

Only religious orders pay the full cost of educating their men. But there is a catch. Religious men cannot be ordained until they meet two requirements. They must have made perpetual vows and they must have the permission of their community, their council and their major superior to be ordained. This is not easily granted. There is a lot of discernment at different levels and a man can be denied the permission. Bishops have no jurisdiction within religious communities. They cannot ordain without the permission of the major superior. That would be cause for disciplinary action against the bishop.

Bishops can only ordain men who are members of their dioceses. Men from other dioceses must have permission of their diocese. Religious must have permission from their brothers.

We’re talking about very complicated canonical rules, as well as complicated rules of religious communities.

Then there is the problem of salaries. Your average parish priest makes between 12k to 15k a year. Who can support a family on that salary? Married priests have a very difficult time making financial ends meet. They usually hold other jobs, which means that they cannot be full-time parish priests, unless they have other financial resources. Parishes cannot afford to pay a priest 50K a year.

We have to look at canon law, finances, and the cost of education for a secular priest.

This is not a problem that is resolved by eliminating celibacy for secular priests. There is more to it than that.

JR

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Look, if a candidate for the priesthood desires to remain celibate, that should be his choice. I am not advocating that be denied to him. But in several years time, after my marriage and graduation (from college) this year and the accompanying profession, I would absolutely consider serving the people of God in role as a priest.

 

[chicago]

Look, if a candidate for the priesthood desires to remain celibate, that should be his choice. I am not advocating that be denied to him. But in several years time, after my marriage and graduation (from college) this year and the accompanying profession, I would absolutely consider serving the people of God in role as a priest.

Let’s hear what you have to say about that after 7 years of marriages and three small children.

You have a nice and appreciated idealism. I’m not so sure it is entirely experiencially realistic, though.