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feargalmac
Guest
Fr Brundage wrote in his article.
Are you accusing Fr Brundage of telling unthruths?
Source:catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601
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Source:catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601
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baylee
Guest
I’m with you whatevergirl re: both of your posts. I am also on a secular forum and it is so hard to get my feelings across there. It sounds as if I’m defending the coverups but I’m not. Yet, I am also thinking that what we are hearing is not the complete truth but most people take what they hear as Gospel…and this is what is frustrating to me. It’s gotten to the point where people believe any bad thing written about the Church.
Although I would like to hear from the Pope himself, I don’t think it will convince the naysayers. They will believe he is lying and still covering things up. Anything short of an independent investigation will fail.
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whatevergirl
Guest
*That’s a good point, baylee. I do think that there is the potential for the Pope to still be smeared, despite making a public speech about the allegations. But, I personally would like to hear him at least address the situation involving his own name being brought up. I would like to see an independent investigation also, but the problem is…it’s like a cold case, that has been dormant for years. Some are dead, some are alive and failing in health…documents are being dug up, and the mainstream takes the documents and sometimes reports truthfully, sometimes not. I think because the mainstream media has been long bloodthirsty in its writings against Christians, in general, I’m not surprised to read what I have read, even the fabrications. But, not every story I read is a fabrication.
I think it’s important to speak out against outright lies posted by the media…but again, I’m rather tired of current clergy members coming out and defending the Pope. I mean, that is a given, and to be understood. But, it doesn’t change the minds of people hearing their defenses. He needs to defend himself, I’m afraid, at this point. It would be like the CEO at your employer (bad example, maybe, but bear with me) having horrible things said about him/her, and everyone in the place defending him/her, but him/her. No, the Pope needs to take a moment, to really address what’s been said about him. Even if he doesn’t think it’s necessary, he is the Pope, and the human leader of our Church on earth. He needs to not leave his flock, having to defend him, when frankly, we weren’t there, and would just be defending what we know about him, in our own minds. Currently.
I don’t want to believe the Pope was involved in any wrong doing…and I believe he is a most holy and wonderful man. But, he needs to speak out against these allegations. He takes a very strong stance when facing controversial topics usually, he needs to do the same in this case, too.
Far be it for me to tell our Pope what to do…lol, but in my humble opinion, it would help if he addressed it. A simple…here is what happened…here are the truths, here are the non truths. But, to simply tell us that the mainstream media is full of bologna…it’s not enough to say that. That’s not a defense. I’m well aware of the media’s tricks. I rarely read or watch mainstream media…but, it’s not a defense to simply say…’‘well, the media is liberal and they have an agenda, and we should not believe any iota of what they’re saying.’’ That’s not a defense. Not saying our Pope has said that, but other clergy members are speaking out ‘‘in defense’’ in this manner. *
I think it’s important to speak out against outright lies posted by the media…but again, I’m rather tired of current clergy members coming out and defending the Pope. I mean, that is a given, and to be understood. But, it doesn’t change the minds of people hearing their defenses. He needs to defend himself, I’m afraid, at this point. It would be like the CEO at your employer (bad example, maybe, but bear with me) having horrible things said about him/her, and everyone in the place defending him/her, but him/her. No, the Pope needs to take a moment, to really address what’s been said about him. Even if he doesn’t think it’s necessary, he is the Pope, and the human leader of our Church on earth. He needs to not leave his flock, having to defend him, when frankly, we weren’t there, and would just be defending what we know about him, in our own minds. Currently.
I don’t want to believe the Pope was involved in any wrong doing…and I believe he is a most holy and wonderful man. But, he needs to speak out against these allegations. He takes a very strong stance when facing controversial topics usually, he needs to do the same in this case, too.
Far be it for me to tell our Pope what to do…lol, but in my humble opinion, it would help if he addressed it. A simple…here is what happened…here are the truths, here are the non truths. But, to simply tell us that the mainstream media is full of bologna…it’s not enough to say that. That’s not a defense. I’m well aware of the media’s tricks. I rarely read or watch mainstream media…but, it’s not a defense to simply say…’‘well, the media is liberal and they have an agenda, and we should not believe any iota of what they’re saying.’’ That’s not a defense. Not saying our Pope has said that, but other clergy members are speaking out ‘‘in defense’’ in this manner. *
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joe_cool
Guest
I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make any sense. If the President makes a comment about solar-powered lawnmowers… guess what every conversation is about the next day? Solar-powered lawnmowers. Put the Pope on defense, and the newspaper headlines will get worse.
Here’s the thing: the court of public opinion is inherently evil… people talking about things that don’t concern them. God will judge those involved; it is not for me to judge them. My opinion is of absolutely no merit… none. I don’t know how it is that people can actually justify all of this attention about scandal and controversy: at the end it serves absolutely no purpose. None. It’s a distraction from things which are more important. It is, in fact, none of my business.
I leave you with a few thoughts:
1 Timothy 5:13
Besides that, they learn to be idlers, gadding about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
Proverbs 26:20
For lack of wood the fire goes out; and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases.
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whatevergirl
Guest
*Talking about things that don’t concern them…like what do you mean? You are right, we shouldn’t gossip…but the scandals should be of concern to us, very much…that a) it never happens again and b) that we know WHAT happened exactly so we can defend against people who attack the Church and are mixing fact with fiction. Therefore it IS important to know what is going on… *
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joe_cool
Guest
In what way does idle talk about scandal spread Christ’s message?
The only people this concerns would include:
- the accused
- the accuser(s)
- the parish
- the tribunal courts
- POSSIBLY the parishioners belonging to that diocese
Yes. Bad stuff happens. No, it shouldn’t. Yes, we should take preventative measures… but we should take preventative measures against ALL bad things.
Involving yourself in the court of public opinion does NOTHING good. Demanding a response from the Pope? Armchair quarterbacking the Church?
Pray for the victims, pray for their abusers, and always be vigilant… but THIS? Too far.
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whatevergirl
Guest
*I for one, am not “armchair quarterbacking” the Church, maybe the media is trying to strongarm, but I for one, would like to hear the Pope address some of this. He leads our Church, it’s not bad of me to wish him to speak on this whole thing. I’m not demanding a response…I would like one. The abuse and cover up incidents put a stain on the Church’s reputation, by the way, not the media…that is what many don’t seem to want to accept. Only when we accept where we have been, can we effectively make changes and move forward. I think our Pope has taken great strides in trying to make sure this never happens again. He is a blessing, and the smear campaign in the media, is beyond shameful…
We are all sinners…and I have been praying for all involved. But, I think it would be a good thing if our Pope addressed some of what we’re hearing…when something bad is in the news about my company? Our CEO is on the horn, on a global conference call to us all to set the record straight. I think that the Church’s leader, our Pope, should take a similiar stance…to at the very least, give us some reassurance. I don’t want to hear about it anymore in the media, I’d like to hear the Church’s response to all of this, from Pope Benedict, himself.
At the risk, of allowing all of this to sidestep me away during Holy week, I wish you a blessed Easter, and rest of your holy week. *
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joe_cool
Guest
He’s spoken on these matters many times before. You know where he stands… To ask for anything else is ridiculous.
zenit.org/article-28801?l=english
I feel sorry for you.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Amen!!!
At this time, all Catholics should be behind our beloved Pope Benedict. He is a truly good man, and there is nothing more he needs to say about abusers. I am amazed that Catholics are not supporting him in every way.
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Rascalking
Guest
Joe_Cool-not a “cool” response at all! That was totally uncalled for. Whatevergirl was clear, concise, and absolutely dead-on accurate. She speaks out of love for her-and our-Church. She is correct-and polite too, I might add.
Not a good response-we can argue and still be polite.
Welcome to the forums, and I mean that sincerely, but let’s play nice.
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Rascalking
Guest
Sorry, I respectfully disagree, in part. He IS a truly a great man-but he needs to bring it out in the open. There are children that are being effected!!!Amen!!!
At this time, all Catholics should be behind our beloved Pope Benedict. He is a truly good man, and there is nothing more he needs to say about abusers. I am amazed that Catholics are not supporting him in every way.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
He already has. This has been re-hashed over and over. Where have you been?
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Rascalking
Guest
I’ve been observing at watching my beloved church fall apart at the seems. In order to be clear, let me state that I think there is probably more hushed up than what we know about. I don’t know if the Pope has anything to do with it, I don’t know. What I DO know is that the church-my church-is taking so many punches right now-there needs to be, in my opinion, a “lay it all out” session that the Pope and Cardinals have where they hide nothing-they show us warts and all-and they do proper reconciliation, and then, hopefully, move on.
I think that one child absued is one child too many.
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whatevergirl
Guest
*I’m definitely supportive of the Pope, and pray for him always…I don’t think wishing for clarity from the Pope on some issues, is not supporting him. But, we don’t have to agree. I don’t believe we should put words in each other’s mouths, though…I have always been supportive of the Pope, he is a holy man. But, he leads our Church, and yes, he has spoken out about a variety of things on these scandals, but as this thing grows in the media (whether it is because of the media or not) he should bring some clarity about what we’re hearing. That’s all I’m saying.
He is considering an emergency summit himself, which I think would be a good thing to do.*
He is considering an emergency summit himself, which I think would be a good thing to do.*
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joe_cool
Guest
Because all of the wagging tongues have forced him into it.
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Maeglin
Guest
I agree with Whatevergirl. This is not just a case of idle gossip. This is a matter of having faith in the Church hierarchy to do the right thing and prosecute abusive priests rather then shuttling them around. All Catholics have a vested interest in the matter because it is endangering the credibility of our Church and its ability to evangelize and retain its own members. It is also a lack of justice for the abused children and their families.
I would be happy if the Church held a synod on the abuse, and the church instituted a new canon law to immediately report any allegations of sex abuse to the secular authorities instead of covering it up or investigating it internally. Bishops need to have their see’s on the line if they cover up or fail to report. The Church needs to step aside and cooperate with secular authorities when it comes to these investigations.
The problem is that the universal nature of the Church means that clergy in certain corrupt nations could be persecuted and falsely smeared. The Church is trying to protect the clergy because no one else will do it. Some countries won’t give an accused clergyman a fair trial.
This has gone too far though; the Church is endangering its moral credibility at the expense of protecting the institution from harm. It’s time for the hierarchy to have faith that the Church will survive and do the right thing.
I would be happy if the Church held a synod on the abuse, and the church instituted a new canon law to immediately report any allegations of sex abuse to the secular authorities instead of covering it up or investigating it internally. Bishops need to have their see’s on the line if they cover up or fail to report. The Church needs to step aside and cooperate with secular authorities when it comes to these investigations.
The problem is that the universal nature of the Church means that clergy in certain corrupt nations could be persecuted and falsely smeared. The Church is trying to protect the clergy because no one else will do it. Some countries won’t give an accused clergyman a fair trial.
This has gone too far though; the Church is endangering its moral credibility at the expense of protecting the institution from harm. It’s time for the hierarchy to have faith that the Church will survive and do the right thing.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Why in the world would your church fall apart? This has happened many times before in the past - people trying to denigrate the Catholics and priests like they are all pedophiles. While I am sure that in a few cases, this actually happened, I think those cases are few and far between.
Stand firm. Honor our Spiritual Leader. If we Catholics don’t stand up for him, who will? Please don’t support the stupid, lying, dirty-minded media.
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Rascalking
Guest
I do stand firm and honor our spirtual leader. Saying they need to be more open is not not standing behind them.
And we calling the media names doesn’t mean this tragedy never happend. While the true cases might be few and far between, they are real, suffering, people who had unspeakable crimes commited against them.
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anode
Guest
Those in the hierarchy who trying to defend the Catholic church are making two major errors.
1) They are trying to shoot the messenger. The worst of these is Bill Donohue in his YouTube clips insulting the victims of the horrendous scandals in Ireland. But others have tried to compromise other major players in these cases. One is Archbishop Weakland, (who was ultimately involved in his own scandal). BUT this has nothing to do with Weakland’s repeated attempts to get Cardinal Ratzinger to take seriously the case against Fr. Murphy in Milwaukee. Others are trying to denigrate the New York Times articles, which are based on well-documented research.
**2) They are denying responsibility at the highest levels. ** They are refusing to take ownership for the scandals. Although the current pope and others have initiated many reforms to prevent recurrence of the scandals, the point remains that both the Munich scandal and the failure of Murphy’s trial in Wisconsin took place on Ratzinger’s watch. In Germany, Fr. Hullerman, who was chased out of Essen for abuses, escaped into the Munich archdiocese, despite vociferous warnings by his psychiatrist. IF Archbishop Ratzinger was not interested in pastoral matters, as was widely perceived, he should have appointed reliable underlings who could be counted on to keep him in the loop. Apparently he didn’t. He was very ill-served by Gruber, Fahr and others, but the fact remains that Ratzinger remains responsible. If he didn’t know about Hullerman, he should have.
As head of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger was also ill-served by his secretary, Bertone, when the Murphy case came up. Bertone must have known two things: Murphy was a heinous pedophile, criminally ignored by the Milwaukee archdiocese, and he was old–time was running out. But *someone *ignored Weakland’s letters for months, finally responding only after intercession by another department, and another letter from Weakland, and continued to stall. Finally Bertone suggests a ‘pastoral’ solution, rejected by Murphy’s bishop --and then Murphy dies. Bertone is now Secretary of State under the pope—which probably indicates that Ratzinger thinks he is effective—and therefore, he spoke for the Cardinal during the Murphy case. Again the buck stops with Benedict, but he refuses to recognize and apologize for his lack of oversight in both cases–referring to them as “petty gossip”. All he has to do is acknowledge that he, the man in charge, is ultimately responsible in both cases.
1) They are trying to shoot the messenger. The worst of these is Bill Donohue in his YouTube clips insulting the victims of the horrendous scandals in Ireland. But others have tried to compromise other major players in these cases. One is Archbishop Weakland, (who was ultimately involved in his own scandal). BUT this has nothing to do with Weakland’s repeated attempts to get Cardinal Ratzinger to take seriously the case against Fr. Murphy in Milwaukee. Others are trying to denigrate the New York Times articles, which are based on well-documented research.
**2) They are denying responsibility at the highest levels. ** They are refusing to take ownership for the scandals. Although the current pope and others have initiated many reforms to prevent recurrence of the scandals, the point remains that both the Munich scandal and the failure of Murphy’s trial in Wisconsin took place on Ratzinger’s watch. In Germany, Fr. Hullerman, who was chased out of Essen for abuses, escaped into the Munich archdiocese, despite vociferous warnings by his psychiatrist. IF Archbishop Ratzinger was not interested in pastoral matters, as was widely perceived, he should have appointed reliable underlings who could be counted on to keep him in the loop. Apparently he didn’t. He was very ill-served by Gruber, Fahr and others, but the fact remains that Ratzinger remains responsible. If he didn’t know about Hullerman, he should have.
As head of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger was also ill-served by his secretary, Bertone, when the Murphy case came up. Bertone must have known two things: Murphy was a heinous pedophile, criminally ignored by the Milwaukee archdiocese, and he was old–time was running out. But *someone *ignored Weakland’s letters for months, finally responding only after intercession by another department, and another letter from Weakland, and continued to stall. Finally Bertone suggests a ‘pastoral’ solution, rejected by Murphy’s bishop --and then Murphy dies. Bertone is now Secretary of State under the pope—which probably indicates that Ratzinger thinks he is effective—and therefore, he spoke for the Cardinal during the Murphy case. Again the buck stops with Benedict, but he refuses to recognize and apologize for his lack of oversight in both cases–referring to them as “petty gossip”. All he has to do is acknowledge that he, the man in charge, is ultimately responsible in both cases.
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curlycool89
Guest
This is already what the law is. According to one of my Profs (who’s a priest and canon lawyer), if they see any sort of credible report it’s immediately passed on to the secular authorities.
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