O’Malley leads bishops on border visit

[Tigg]

I expect compassion, that’s all. My husband would be in the same position had he not spent all of his substantial savings support our family while trying to do the right thing.
Many do not have the resources and others, exploit these people. I feel like he was exploited by a law firm as well. It’s the difficulty of paperwork, sponsorships, and the fees that need attention. If these things were equitable…I think most immigrants would MUCH rather fall under the category if LEGAL.

Also, it bears mentioning, that I am a DRE in a parish. I deal will families with immigration problems all the time. I am preparing a girl for her First Holy Communion at present, who was deported separately from her entire family to Honduras. It took them several years to get her back with them. She came as a newborn in arms. No one told the family what was required for her. They all have papers. One day, when 8 years old, she is put on a plane.
Now, at 14, she’s back. We are having her First Communion. I feel for these people.
I can’t simply write them off because it’s hard for the American public to justify, understand, or approve of the immigrant’s plight. I still have to minister to her as a child of God. Immigrants have souls too.

I believe that is what the Cardinal is trying to do as well. Jesus looked beyond the label of the people he encountered. On the last day, I don’t want the Lord to say I was unkind or unfeeling. It’s just me. I understand that many people have a huge problem with immigration and immigrants. I mean no disrespect to others who have a very different approach.
Peace.
Clare

None of us want to write them off, but it’s an issue of justice for Americans too. The Mexican people cannot be blameworthy for the hidden agendas of our own government and the enticement that has been offered. They are being exploited as are we. In our own state, the Immigration Reform Coalition, innocent sounding though it seems, is using donations to hire professional lobbyists to pass same-sex marriage laws. And here’s the thing for me. While Mass is being offered at the border, are they being counseled by the bishops as to the alternatives to breaking the law and of the imprudence of life-threatening risk even to their own families? I do not believe it unreasonable to say that the bishops are actually offering encouragement of continued illegal entry since they support a *political *solution in the form of immigration reform. I ask are they considering the common good? Perhaps the Mexican bishops could offer practical and spiritual advice to their own people.

I know there are many poor still in Mexico. I will never forget the day I had a moving sale and Mexican women, unable to speak any English, were looking at some new towels I had put out and never used. I could tell they wanted them, but they shook their heads and began to walk away and I knew instinctively they did not have the money to buy them. I thrust the towels in their arms and said it’s okay….take them. In contrast my neighbor tells the story of his new driveway in which a Mexican crew laid the cement and bragged (in English) that the salary they would receive for that job would complete their new home in Mexico. THIS, as American concrete workers collect unemployment, barely able to feed their families because they have been laid off. Please read Ridgerunner’s posts #10 and 19. It is becoming a well-known fact that Mexico is experiencing an economic transformation and that’s well and good. But at what injustice done to others?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There is also the problem of illegals coming over here and voting. Many states have no requirements for voter ID which means we get NON citizens making choices in OUR politics.
Since most illegals are poor they have a very hard time weighing morality with free food, housing, healthcare, education, cell phones etc. I heard recently that NY is thinking about giving illegals a drivers license! As we know the majority of them cave in to selfishness and give their support to the santa clause party, even though they know deep down that all this free stuff does not come free to the hardworking citizens who are paying large percentages of their income in taxes.
They don’t have to worry about taxes (besides sales tax) and they have no SSN or ID so if they commit a crime they just relocate and make up a new name (many of them get caught though since they are almost 30% of our prison population)

Being poor makes you immoral or more likely to engage in immoral behavior?

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

Those words are surely in more common use, to be sure. I used traffic violations because that is legally on par with illegally entering this country. We too often make it seem like a criminal act, when it is only an illegal act.

I don’t see the difference between an act that is illegal, meaning against the law, which is a crime, and a criminal act, which is a crime.

You draw a distinction that does not exist. According to Merriam-Webster, “criminal” is a synonym for “illegal,” and the definition of “crime” is to commit an illegal act.

Sneaking into this country without permission to be here, committing that crime, is much more serious than committing a traffic violation. Anyone trying to equate the two acts is trying to downplay the seriousness of illegal immigration in order to make it seem that it is no big deal.

That type of thinking is probably the root cause of our illegal alien problem.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t see the difference between an act that is illegal, meaning against the law, which is a crime, and a criminal act, which is a crime.

You draw a distinction that does not exist. According to Merriam-Webster, “criminal” is a synonym for “illegal,” and the definition of “crime” is to commit an illegal act.

Sneaking into this country without permission to be here, committing that crime, is much more serious than committing a traffic violation. Anyone trying to equate the two acts is trying to downplay the seriousness of illegal immigration in order to make it seem that it is no big deal.

That type of thinking is probably the root cause of our illegal alien problem.

What’s the punishment set down by law for being in this country illegally?

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

What’s the punishment set down by law for being in this country illegally?

As far as I know, it is incarceration until the case can be reviewed, and then deportation. If someone is caught entering at the border, I think they are turned back.

These things should happen if the authorities actually enforce the laws.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

As far as I know, it is incarceration until the case can be reviewed, and then deportation. If someone is caught entering at the border, I think they are turned back.

These things should happen if the authorities actually enforce the laws.

So in other words not really a serious crime. No actual punishment for being here illegally (incarceration of a suspect prior to conviction isn’t actually a punishment, nor is deporting them- they shouldn’t be here, so they’re sent back). An illegal immigrant caught speeding would actually receive a greater punishment for speeding (the fine) than for being here illegally (which actually is more than just being sent home, they are barred from applying for citizenship for I think a decade). You’re right, comparing being here illegally to speeding isn’t actually very accurate. Speeding is the greater offense.

 

[Tigg]

Since most illegals are poor they have a very hard time weighing morality with free food, housing, healthcare, education, cell phones etc.

I doubt poverty has much to do with it unless you insinuate theirs is the greater temptation. If their pastors and bishops are not giving them moral guidance I dare say they are much in the same boat as the rest of us.

 

[Ender]

I do not understand. You object to a bishop having his own opinion?

I object to bishops presenting their political opinions as if they were church doctrines.

If you read the article, there is no mention of amnesty or removing the border fence. What you will find is praying for the 6000 who died there crossing the border and care for the suffering, you know, Jesus stuff.

This event did not happen in a vacuum. Surely you are aware of the positions already expressed by the bishops, which includes a call for citizenship for illegals.

Ender

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

So in other words not really a serious crime. No actual punishment for being here illegally (incarceration of a suspect prior to conviction isn’t actually a punishment, nor is deporting them- they shouldn’t be here, so they’re sent back). An illegal immigrant caught speeding would actually receive a greater punishment for speeding (the fine) than for being here illegally (which actually is more than just being sent home, they are barred from applying for citizenship for I think a decade). You’re right, comparing being here illegally to speeding isn’t actually very accurate. Speeding is the greater offense.

You can look up the law yourself. I gave you an answer based on what I think and have seen is the punishment. Personally, I find incarceration for any amount of time punishment.

Illegal immigration has a detrimental effect on our economy, employment, tax burden for legal citizens, our education system that is crowded with illegals, our personal safety as evidenced by the large number of illegals in jail for committing things like rape and murder, our national safety because of the possibility of terrorists sneaking over our weak borders, our personal health because of the unchecked health status of someone who sneaks into our country, and on and on.

To posit that those detriments brought by illegal immigration equate to the violation of someone driving 10 MPH over the speed limit is patently absurd and dangerous thinking, quite frankly.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You can look up the law yourself. I gave you an answer based on what I think and have seen is the punishment. Personally, I find incarceration for any amount of time punishment.

Illegal immigration has a detrimental effect on our economy, employment, tax burden for legal citizens, our education system that is crowded with illegals, our personal safety as evidenced by the large number of illegals in jail for committing things like rape and murder, our national safety because of the possibility of terrorists sneaking over our weak borders, our personal health because of the unchecked health status of someone who sneaks into our country, and on and on.

To posit that those detriments brought by illegal immigration equate to the violation of someone driving 10 MPH over the speed limit is patently absurd and dangerous thinking, quite frankly.

Pre-trial incarceration isn’t punishment. It’s part of our legal due process. It’s given when the court feels the suspect charged with a crime is either a danger to society or are a flight risk. Given the variable in the amount of time an illegal immigrant might spend incarcerated prior to their hearing and the option for an illegal immigrant to simply waive their right to a hearing and just be deported we can’t conclude that pre-trial incarceration for illegal immigrants waiting on their hearing is due to the danger they may present to society. Illegal immigrants are held in custody prior to their hearing due to their flight risk. Not a punishment.

Also supporting this is how pre-trial incarceration is handled in our legal system in general. It can be, but is not always counted as part of the sentence handed down to someone convicted of a crime (a person sent to prison for 10 years doesn’t get to count the 2 years of pre-trial incarceration as part of that 10 years unless the judge specifically allows it). There is also the issue of someone being incarcerated for being here illegally, being found not guilty, and if we go with your “it’s punishment” serving prison time for a crime they didn’t actually commit. Bottom line, incarceration prior to their hearing isn’t actually punishment.

Your middle paragraph actually has nothing to do with what we are discussing (being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding), nor have you actually provided support for any of it.

Patently absurd would be arguing that being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding even after one presents evidence that being here illegally isn’t actually punished (incarceration prior to hearing, deportation if found to be here illegally). Patently absurd would also be trying to change the subject from being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding to some illegal immigrants (like some citizens) engage in other illegal activities.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

Pre-trial incarceration isn’t punishment. It’s part of our legal due process. It’s given when the court feels the suspect charged with a crime is either a danger to society or are a flight risk. Given the variable in the amount of time an illegal immigrant might spend incarcerated prior to their hearing and the option for an illegal immigrant to simply waive their right to a hearing and just be deported we can’t conclude that pre-trial incarceration for illegal immigrants waiting on their hearing is due to the danger they may present to society. Illegal immigrants are held in custody prior to their hearing due to their flight risk. Not a punishment.

Also supporting this is how pre-trial incarceration is handled in our legal system in general. It can be, but is not always counted as part of the sentence handed down to someone convicted of a crime (a person sent to prison for 10 years doesn’t get to count the 2 years of pre-trial incarceration as part of that 10 years unless the judge specifically allows it). There is also the issue of someone being incarcerated for being here illegally, being found not guilty, and if we go with your “it’s punishment” serving prison time for a crime they didn’t actually commit. Bottom line, incarceration prior to their hearing isn’t actually punishment.

Your middle paragraph actually has nothing to do with what we are discussing (being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding), nor have you actually provided support for any of it.

Patently absurd would be arguing that being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding even after one presents evidence that being here illegally isn’t actually punished (incarceration prior to hearing, deportation if found to be here illegally). Patently absurd would also be trying to change the subject from being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding to some illegal immigrants (like some citizens) engage in other illegal activities.

Actually, you are changing the subject and obfuscating the issue with your attention to punishment over the effects and consequences of the two crimes. And we are all drifting from the subject of the original post, actually, which began with the Mass held by the Bishops and spurred on a discussion about immigration reform.

I just think it is irresponsible to downplay the seriousness of illegal immigration, which brings with it all the detrimental consequences I listed in my previous post, because you think that being fined $100 and receiving 3-points on your license is more painful than spending time in jail and then being deported back to a home country where you find it difficult to survive.

Maybe you would think illegal immigration was serious and detrimental to this country if we applied a life sentence to the crime. We do not have a perfect justice system, and we do have crimes that do not bring a proper punishment, which is why I don’t think you can base the seriousness of the consequences of illegal immigration on the punishment.

Preventing people from coming here illegally and deporting illegal aliens who are found here is quite effective, if the authorities would only enforce the laws.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

Patently absurd…

By the way, OldCatholicGuy, I apologize for using the term “patently absurd.” It seems to have insulted you. It was uncharitable of me and an emotional reaction to what I see as wrong and illogical thinking on this issue.

I tried to come back and edit out the remark, but I discovered that, once we leave the website, the edit function disappears from our posts.

 

[Ender]

Pre-trial incarceration isn’t punishment. It’s part of our legal due process. It’s given when the court feels the suspect charged with a crime is either a danger to society or are a flight risk.

“.… the suspect charged with a crime…” Doesn’t this conflict with your position that illegal entry into the US isn’t a crime?

Illegal immigrants are held in custody prior to their hearing due to their flight risk. Not a punishment.

This also conflicts with your assertion that illegal entry is not a crime inasmuch as the punishment for a civil infraction is typically a fine, not imprisonment … or even “held in custody.”

Patently absurd would be arguing that being here illegally is a greater crime than speeding …

I really don’t know myself but I did find this article which addressed the subject.A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. This may be something like a routine traffic offense such as speeding. The only penalty for a civil offense is a fine. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence.

It is an undisputable fact that it is a violation of the criminal code to enter the country illegally. 8 U.S.C. 1325(a), which has been in effect for decades and codified in its current form since 1991, is unambiguous that doing so is a crime.

A first offense under 8 U.S.C. 1325(a) is a Class B misdemeanor. For the first commission of the offense, the person is fined, imprisoned up to six months, or both, and for a subsequent offense, is fined, imprisoned up to 2 years, or both (8 U.S.C. § 1325).

globalsecurity.org/security/systems/immigrant-illegal.htm
The distinction between a crime and a civil violation is not altogether clear but I’m pretty sure there aren’t many speeders who risk spending six months in jail for speeding. The third paragraph is explicit: illegal entry is a misdemeanor. And a misdemeanor is a crime.

Ender

 

[oldcatholicguy]

“.… the suspect charged with a crime…” Doesn’t this conflict with your position that illegal entry into the US isn’t a crime?
This also conflicts with your assertion that illegal entry is not a crime inasmuch as the punishment for a civil infraction is typically a fine, not imprisonment … or even “held in custody.”
I really don’t know myself but I did find this article which addressed the subject.A civil offense is an infraction of a law that is not a crime. This may be something like a routine traffic offense such as speeding. The only penalty for a civil offense is a fine. A crime is a violation of the law that is punishable by a fine or a jail sentence.

It is an undisputable fact that it is a violation of the criminal code to enter the country illegally. 8 U.S.C. 1325(a), which has been in effect for decades and codified in its current form since 1991, is unambiguous that doing so is a crime.

A first offense under 8 U.S.C. 1325(a) is a Class B misdemeanor. For the first commission of the offense, the person is fined, imprisoned up to six months, or both, and for a subsequent offense, is fined, imprisoned up to 2 years, or both (8 U.S.C. § 1325).

globalsecurity.org/security/systems/immigrant-illegal.htm
The distinction between a crime and a civil violation is not altogether clear but I’m pretty sure there aren’t many speeders who risk spending six months in jail for speeding. The third paragraph is explicit: illegal entry is a misdemeanor. And a misdemeanor is a crime.

Ender

Please cite where I claimed illegal immigration wasn’t a crime and/or entering the country illegally wasn’t a crime.

 

[TMC]

So in other words not really a serious crime. No actual punishment for being here illegally (incarceration of a suspect prior to conviction isn’t actually a punishment, nor is deporting them- they shouldn’t be here, so they’re sent back). An illegal immigrant caught speeding would actually receive a greater punishment for speeding (the fine) than for being here illegally (which actually is more than just being sent home, they are barred from applying for citizenship for I think a decade). You’re right, comparing being here illegally to speeding isn’t actually very accurate. Speeding is the greater offense.

Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime. It is a regulatory violation. A better analogy than speeding is failing to get your car inspected on time.

 

[TMC]

Please cite where I claimed illegal immigration wasn’t a crime and/or entering the country illegally wasn’t a crime.

Entering the country illegally is a crime - a misdemeanor. Being here without authorization is not a crime. The distinction is important because many (maybe most) undocumented aliens come here legally and overstay their legal visit.

 

[TMC]

Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime. It is a regulatory violation. A better analogy than speeding is failing to get your car inspected on time.

Entering the country illegally is a crime - a misdemeanor. Being here without authorization is not a crime. The distinction is important because many (maybe most) undocumented aliens come here legally and overstay their legal visit.

Of course, none of this speaks to the morality of immigration. The State can declare certain types of immigration unlawful, but that does not determine the morality of those acts. Similarly, people can brand others as “illegal” but that does not make the supposed “illegals” any less moral, or any less deserving of our acceptance and assistance.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Actually, you are changing the subject and obfuscating the issue with your attention to punishment over the effects and consequences of the two crimes. And we are all drifting from the subject of the original post, actually, which began with the Mass held by the Bishops and spurred on a discussion about immigration reform.

I just think it is irresponsible to downplay the seriousness of illegal immigration, which brings with it all the detrimental consequences I listed in my previous post, because you think that being fined $100 and receiving 3-points on your license is more painful than spending time in jail and then being deported back to a home country where you find it difficult to survive.

Maybe you would think illegal immigration was serious and detrimental to this country if we applied a life sentence to the crime. We do not have a perfect justice system, and we do have crimes that do not bring a proper punishment, which is why I don’t think you can base the seriousness of the consequences of illegal immigration on the punishment.

Preventing people from coming here illegally and deporting illegal aliens who are found here is quite effective, if the authorities would only enforce the laws.

Your original point that I commented on had nothing to do with the effects of speeding or illegal immigration and everything to do with the seriousness of them with your objecting being that illegal immigration itself is a more serious crime than speeding. Given that you can gauge how serious our society considers a crime to be based off the punishment for it you can’t really argue that illegal immigration itself is more serious than speeding. In you search for support of your argument you then indicated that you consider pre-trail incarceration as a punishment. Well, this flies in the face of the Constitution and our due process (being punished for a crime prior to being convicted of it). Now you’ve moved on to “well illegal immigration causes other bad stuff” without actually showing this.

How much of this “bad stuff” is done by non-criminal illegal immigrants (non-criminal here used to describe those illegal immigrants who are not engaging in criminal behavior outside of being here illegally) versus criminal illegal immigrants (those who are engaging in criminal behavior in addition to being here illegally)? Given that Homeland Security and ICE shape their enforcement policies around prioritizing the capture and removal of criminal illegal immigrants versus the non-criminal (see above for term usage) illegal immigrants we should be able to conclude that the majority of the associated “bad stuff” comes from the group that our government is prioritizing in capture and removal. But, that leads to uncomfortable questions regarding why there is such a strong pull for criminal illegal immigrants in our country (like our massive illegal drug problems and the huge negative impact this has on other countries).

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime. It is a regulatory violation. A better analogy than speeding is failing to get your car inspected on time.

For my own education could you provide a citation? I assumed being here illegally was a criminal offense.

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

Your original point that I commented on had nothing to do with the effects of speeding or illegal immigration and everything to do with the seriousness of them with your objecting being that illegal immigration itself is a more serious crime than speeding. Given that you can gauge how serious our society considers a crime to be based off the punishment for it you can’t really argue that illegal immigration itself is more serious than speeding. In you search for support of your argument you then indicated that you consider pre-trail incarceration as a punishment. Well, this flies in the face of the Constitution and our due process (being punished for a crime prior to being convicted of it). Now you’ve moved on to “well illegal immigration causes other bad stuff” without actually showing this.

How much of this “bad stuff” is done by non-criminal illegal immigrants (non-criminal here used to describe those illegal immigrants who are not engaging in criminal behavior outside of being here illegally) versus criminal illegal immigrants (those who are engaging in criminal behavior in addition to being here illegally)? Given that Homeland Security and ICE shape their enforcement policies around prioritizing the capture and removal of criminal illegal immigrants versus the non-criminal (see above for term usage) illegal immigrants we should be able to conclude that the majority of the associated “bad stuff” comes from the group that our government is prioritizing in capture and removal. But, that leads to uncomfortable questions regarding why there is such a strong pull for criminal illegal immigrants in our country (like our massive illegal drug problems and the huge negative impact this has on other countries).

I did not bring up the speeding versus illegal immigration comparison. I responded to someone else who brought that comparison to the conversation. So, I see that it is a talking point for pro-illegal immigration people.

As I stated in my last post, it is unwise to judge the seriousness of some crimes by their punishment because our justice system is not perfect, and, in some cases, the punishment does not fit the crime.

It is also dangerous and foolish to ignore the consequences that some crimes bring with them, especially if you view the crime as not serious. A little insight would be prudent.

Since the subject is illegal immigration, whether or not citizens commit serious crimes and the “bad stuff” is meaningless to the conversation.

With regard to our government prioritizng the illegals who do the “bad stuff,” I guess they have changed their minds on that, since they just released into the USA upwards of 60,000 illegal aliens with “bad” criminal histories.

The rest of your post is just more obfuscation and the wrong-headed idea that speeding is more serious than illegal immigration. Again, just because you try to use technical jargon and semantics to make speeding more serious a crime than illegal immigration does not make it so when you take the time to think about the consequences of each crime.

I would rather there be more people driving 10 MPH over the speed limit, than millions of illegal aliens whose presence here can have dire consequences to the economy, employment, safety, etc.