Obama Admin knew millions could not keep their health ins.

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St_Francis said:
It is *not *“just” junk insurance that is being lost: in California, a woman whose insurance covered her both at home and in the cancer center which has so far saved her life has paid out $1.2M for her care. This is not a “junk” insurance which Californans are losing.

She can’t find coverage as good as what she had, and she’s expected to pay more…
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And I empathize, I really do. However, there are still not enough details in the article to determine to what extent her fears are well-founded. Even on the individual market (without the exchange) self-employed consumers can benefit by claiming insurance expenses on their tax returns - they just have to wait until they file, as opposed to those on the exchanges who can benefit from the subsidies right away.

So while it is a heartbreaking story we are not given enough details to determine much of anything except that this is a very confusing time for many people. Unfortunately, confusion is almost always associated with the initial periods of any kind of change - good or bad.
 
markomalley said:
Here’s a good piece in the Washington Post (can’t believe I’m refering somebody to the WaPo, but, hey…). The one thing that I don’t see discussed is that grandfathered policies will, over a matter of time, start shrinking to the point where the risk pool is no longer viable. But, otherwise, I think it’s a pretty balanced piece (again, can’t believe I’m using the term “balance” with “wapo”, but,…)
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It is a pretty good piece. I notice that it also has a link to Ezra Klein who compares an insurance plan with buying a plasma TV for $109.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/01/the-shocking-truth-about-obamacares-rate-shock/
 
seekerz said:
The whole idea of insurance is the spreading of financial risk among as large a pool as possible. Everyone pays for the unpaid bills of the under-insured or uninsured…I assume that even Native Americans, the Amish and non-citizens pay taxes. And as for the poor, well the inflation of costs that results from unpaid bills, puts costs even further out of their reach making them more dependent on some form of assistance. Everybody pays - that’s why I never got the outrage over being “forced” to pay for other people’s “free” healthcare.
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You consistently miss a key point that is basic to insurance. Insurance is about spreading the risk among a pool of people with **SIMILAR **risks. It was never originated as a way for low risk people to transfer their wealth to high risk people. Insurance plans that work, like property and casualty insurance, rate people by risk and charge accordingly. No auto insurance company would charge me, with a 1997 Chevy minivan and no tickets in 47 years, the same premium as my neighbor with the new $70,000 Corvette and a recent DWI conviction. The multi-million dollar home on a known earthquake fault is charged a lot more than the starter home far from a flood plain in Texas.

Government plans like Medicaid charge no more for the sexually promiscuous, drug abusing, obese smoker than the person who chooses none of those preventable risks. It is the worst example for anyone to use for a fiscally responsible health insurance plan. It is a subsidy for foolish, immoral and even criminal behavior. Even a liberal Democrat economist could tell you that when you subsidize something, you get more of it, not less. There is no chance of reducing health care costs until you find a way to reduce the risks being taken.
 
seekerz said:
Okay, Estebob, he “lied”…
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And it was a big lie - a deception intended to fool the American people into accepting his healthcare plan. It was passed under false pretenses.

It needs to be repealed.
 
Trader said:
Government plans like Medicaid charge no more for the sexually promiscuous, drug abusing, obese smoker than the person who chooses none of those preventable risks.
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My state (Illinois) does take smoking into account when determining premiums.
 
Trader said:
You consistently miss a key point that is basic to insurance. Insurance is about spreading the risk among a pool of people with **SIMILAR **risks. It was never originated as a way for low risk people to transfer their wealth to high risk people. Insurance plans that work, like property and casualty insurance, rate people by risk and charge accordingly. No auto insurance company would charge me, with a 1997 Chevy minivan and no tickets in 47 years, the same premium as my neighbor with the new $70,000 Corvette and a recent DWI conviction. The multi-million dollar home on a known earthquake fault is charged a lot more than the starter home far from a flood plain in Texas.

Government plans like Medicaid charge no more for the sexually promiscuous, drug abusing, obese smoker than the person who chooses none of those preventable risks. It is the worst example for anyone to use for a fiscally responsible health insurance plan. It is a subsidy for foolish, immoral and even criminal behavior. Even a liberal Democrat economist could tell you that when you subsidize something, you get more of it, not less. There is no chance of reducing health care costs until you find a way to reduce the risks being taken.
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A pool of people with similar risk? You mean like 16 yr old drivers, alcoholics and soccer moms all belonging to different car insurance pools?
 
ishii said:
And it was a big lie - a deception intended to fool the American people into accepting his healthcare plan. It was passed under false pretenses.

It needs to be repealed.
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Yes, so we need to go back from tax-payer and private consumer funded health care for the less well off, to…tax-payer and private consumer funded health care for the less well off. That should take care of the economic pressure caused by ballooning health care costs…
 
Darryl1958 said:
Rather,

He lied. Period.

Without the basic facts being ironed out first, it is impossible to discuss the details.
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So let’s talk basic facts:
  1. Who was paying for the care of the uninsured and under-insured before the ACA and who is paying now?
  2. What is the rate of premium increases now as compared to previously? More importantly, what is the comparison between total consumer costs now versus previously?
  3. What is the effect on the economy of having millions of people unable to access basic affordable health care?
  4. And not the least of all, what does leaving the sick without care (and no, ER visits for non-emergencies are NOT a responsible or effective way to care for people) say of the morality of any country?
Those are the basic questions which remain, regardless of whether you believe Obama lied or not. If I agree that Obama lied, may we discuss those? After all, being president does not make one man’s words more important than the health needs of literally millions of people, does it?
 
seekerz said:
Yes, so we need to go back from tax-payer and private consumer funded health care for the less well off, to…tax-payer and private consumer funded health care for the less well off. That should take care of the economic pressure caused by ballooning health care costs…
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You are way oversimplifying things, seekerz. States can pass reforms which help the less well off get the healthcare they need. This huge monstrosity called Obamacare is unnecessary - and only lies allowed it to pass.

Ishii
 
seekerz said:
So let’s talk basic facts:
  1. Who was paying for the care of the uninsured and under-insured before the ACA and who is paying now?
  2. What is the rate of premium increases now as compared to previously? More importantly, what is the comparison between total consumer costs now versus previously?
  3. What is the effect on the economy of having millions of people unable to access basic affordable health care?
  4. And not the least of all, what does leaving the sick without care (and no, ER visits for non-emergencies are NOT a responsible or effective way to care for people) say of the morality of any country?
Those are the basic questions which remain, regardless of whether you believe Obama lied or not. If I agree that Obama lied, may we discuss those? After all, being president does not make one man’s words more important than the health needs of literally millions of people, does it?
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Absolutely we should discuss those questions you list above. What you’re saying is that our healthcare system needs to be reformed. We would probably disagree as to what shape the reforms should take.

What does allowing the state to become all powerful - such that it can control the lives of its citizens, say about the morality (and wisdom) of a country? As Mark Steyn wrote, when you allow the government to be so powerful you change the relationship of the state to the citizen to that of pusher to junkie.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
States can pass reforms which help the less well off get the healthcare they need.

Ishii
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I’m oversimplifying things? Why weren’t those reforms passed when health care costs began bankrupting sick people? Why the sudden realization among politicians now? Inability to access or afford insurance is hardly something new…
 
seekerz said:
I’m oversimplifying things? Why weren’t those reforms passed when health care costs began bankrupting sick people? Why the sudden realization among politicians now? Inability to access or afford insurance is hardly something new…
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So since they haven’t been sufficiently addressed yet, we should pass a bill that makes things worse? I don’t get your reasoning.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
Absolutely we should discuss those questions you list above. What you’re saying is that our healthcare system needs to be reformed. We would probably disagree as to what shape the reforms should take.

What does allowing the state to become all powerful - such that it can control the lives of its citizens, say about the morality (and wisdom) of a country?

Ishii
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I have lived in states where government pays for all health care…and the degree of external control wielded over personal decisions (from what you can display in your own front yard, to what kind of car-seat you must buy) is positively draconian here in comparison to what transpires in those countries. So “all-powerful” is a relative concept…
 
seekerz said:
So let’s talk basic facts:
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The basic fact that hasn’t bee agreed on is that Obama lied.
He never sold the plan on a “lie”.

It was sold on a lie.

Period.

If that cannot be acknowledged, everything that follows just comes off as more of the same political, partisan posturing.
 
ishii said:
So since they haven’t been sufficiently addressed yet, we should pass a bill that makes things worse? I don’t get your reasoning.

Ishii
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Sufficiently addressed? Have they been addressed at all? For something to be “worse” one needs a comparison. Where is it?
 
Darryl1958 said:
The basic fact that hasn’t bee agreed on is that Obama lied.
He never sold the plan on a “lie”.

It was sold on a lie.

Period.

If that cannot be acknowledged, everything that follows just comes off as more of the same political, partisan posturing.
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Didn’t I already concede the “lie” for argument’s sake? Surely there are other people in this country who count, besides Obama?
 
seekerz said:
I have lived in states where government pays for all health care…and the degree of external control wielded over personal decisions (from what you can display in your own front yard, to what kind of car-seat you must buy) is positively draconian here in comparison to what transpires in those countries. So “all-powerful” is a relative concept…
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Agree. I have lived in countries where the healthcare is administered by the govt. and there was a lot of waiting - like going to get your license renewed at the DMV. I was much younger and healthier then, 😦 So I didn’t exactly go to the doctor that much. I wouldn’t want to rely on that type of healthcare system when I had more health issues.

Ishii
 
seekerz said:
So let’s talk basic facts:
  1. Who was paying for the care of the uninsured and under-insured before the ACA and who is paying now?
  2. What is the rate of premium increases now as compared to previously? More importantly, what is the comparison between total consumer costs now versus previously?
  3. What is the effect on the economy of having millions of people unable to access basic affordable health care?
  4. And not the least of all, what does leaving the sick without care (and no, ER visits for non-emergencies are NOT a responsible or effective way to care for people) say of the morality of any country?
Those are the basic questions which remain, regardless of whether you believe Obama lied or not. If I agree that Obama lied, may we discuss those? After all, being president does not make one man’s words more important than the health needs of literally millions of people, does it?
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If it is so self evident it was needed why did they lie to sell it?
 
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