Obama Announces New Climate Plan

[lynnvinc]

If you are ignorant enough to believe coal fired plants are cheap because of subsidies, then I guess its no use for me to continue. Clean coal technology is there because of private business, like the fortune 500 corporation I work for. You have nothing to go on but propaganda; I have 30 years in the business.

Solar is only viable because of tax incentives of over 80% to the consumer paid for by the tax payers against their will.

Natural gas is the cheapest now because of private industry advances, in spite of government pressure and nuts pushing to outlaw fracking for no reason but the fact that they don’t like fossil fuels

Your great intellectual world is starting to crumble, crumble because of truth.

PS. Why do you ignore my posts? Can’t answer adequately?

I do think you are right that oil, coal, and gas energy can be produced a lot cleaner, and I hope and pray it is, because we are going to need these sources well into the future, even if people shift as quickly as feasible to alt energy (which will not fill 100% of our energy needs).

I’m glad you’re on the side of clean coal.

I also know that wastes can be disposed of in a lot safer ways. For instance if they incinerate toxins at high enough temps, etc. But what happens in reality is the bottom line drags them to reduce those temps and emit toxic pollution into the air we breathe (just one type of example). And there are unforseen accidents, and known accidents-in-the-making – like the TVA didn’t address the weaknesses and cracks in their coal ash dam in E. Tennessee, which finally burst.

We need people to be informed and vigilent and hold gov and industries’ feet to the fire and make them protect the people from undue risks and harms.

And we need a holistic approach, understanding that we will continue to need fossil fuels well into the future, even if alt energy reaches its max potential.

 

[qui_est_ce]

:tiphat:

How do you go through life thinking people are so inherently evil? So now Dick Chaney is purposely poisoning people for profit? You have no proof that anything that has been blamed on fracking is true. You are truly misled and a perfect example of how screwed up our higher education system is in our country. I feel for you and will pray for you.

:tiphat:

Thank you.

 

[Lapey]

For why it is not viable. I think you answered that in the post, because it’s not efficient. I would imagine coal is more efficient because there is a tremendous amount of energy stored in coal, due to the fact that it was once organic matter which did not decompose, so the energy stored in its cells because of photosynthesis did not escape into the environment.

You’ve got it. But I would add, solar has not become the magic electricity source because to power just one house of average size it takes panels which would cover the entire roof and will only produce part of the needs, and for only the sunny portion of the day. For an average house, lets say 1800 square feet; it cast approximately $100K. 80% of that is paid for by taxpayers. The consumers who do say yes will see a decrease in electric bills, at our expense.

The way to go is nuclear, it is the cheapest and cleanest of fuels, but environmentalists won’t allow that to happen.

 

[tomarin]

You’ve got it. But I would add, solar has not become the magic electricity source because to power just one house of average size it takes panels which would cover the entire roof and will only produce part of the needs, and for only the sunny portion of the day. For an average house, lets say 1800 square feet; it cast approximately $100K. 80% of that is paid for by taxpayers. The consumers who do say yes will see a decrease in electric bills, at our expense.

The way to go is nuclear, it is the cheapest and cleanest of fuels, but environmentalists won’t allow that to happen.

I’m pro-nuclear myself. Coal is a wonderful source of energy, it’s cheap and plentiful, but it’s dirty. We may never be able to wean ourselves off of it entirely, but I prefer nuclear because it is cleaner (and therefore “greener”).

 

[qui_est_ce]

You’ve got it. But I would add, solar has not become the magic electricity source because to power just one house of average size it takes panels which would cover the entire roof and will only produce part of the needs, and for only the sunny portion of the day. For an average house, lets say 1800 square feet; it cast approximately $100K. 80% of that is paid for by taxpayers. The consumers who do say yes will see a decrease in electric bills, at our expense.

The way to go is nuclear, it is the cheapest and cleanest of fuels, but environmentalists won’t allow that to happen.

So basically, people who live in sunny climates will benefit the most, while we in less sunny climates subsidize their lower energy costs. :doh2:

 

[Used2beSherryG]

I like that the President stated that we don’t have time for the “flat Earth society”.

Maybe later he will include those who think the world is 6000 years old.

Folks may have problems with Obama but it is great to have a leader who acknowledges valid science.

What color WAS the Kool-Aid???

 

[Ridgerunner]

So far, the only government subsidy I’ve found for coal is research into clean coal.

I doubt the government has a lot of interest in clean coal now. It just doesn’t want coal, period. I understand it has reneged on some of the research that would have resulted in standards, etc, for it, so the coal industry is sort of stuck.

This administration just doesn’t want this country to have inexpensive energy, so it’s encouraging the “alternatives” that the European countries have already found too expensive and are abandoning.

We can’t have inexpensive energy in this country. Why, we might go out and have children or something if we could keep them warm and fed!

 

[Used2beSherryG]

You are confused - its now climate change - even if the climate isn’t changing all the much.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I doubt the government has a lot of interest in clean coal now. It just doesn’t want coal, period. I understand it has reneged on some of the research that would have resulted in standards, etc, for it, so the coal industry is sort of stuck.

The newest article I could find was from 2011.

We can’t have inexpensive energy in this country. Why, we might go out and have children or something if we could keep them warm and fed!

Sad.

 

[Ridgerunner]

“fracking fluid” is 90% water. It’s 9.5% sand. The remaining 1/2 of 1% is largely products people eat or use in household products, like salt, guar gum (used also in ice cream) and detergents. Fracking fluid is pumped back out, recycled, and used again and again.

The fracking zones are far below the water tables. Water tables don’t actually extend down terribly far.

 

[tomarin]

So basically, people who live in sunny climates will benefit the most, while we in less sunny climates subsidize their lower energy costs. :doh2:

I don’t think solar energy is limited to certain regions, necessarily. It can be captured in Arizona, say, and shipped to Maine, in theory at least. Of course the devil is in the details, and distributing the energy may require more energy.

 

[Ridgerunner]

You’ve got it. But I would add, solar has not become the magic electricity source because to power just one house of average size it takes panels which would cover the entire roof and will only produce part of the needs, and for only the sunny portion of the day. For an average house, lets say 1800 square feet; it cast approximately $100K. 80% of that is paid for by taxpayers. The consumers who do say yes will see a decrease in electric bills, at our expense.

The way to go is nuclear, it is the cheapest and cleanest of fuels, but environmentalists won’t allow that to happen.

Solar is no more a good source now than it was in the late 1970s and 1980s. Yes, there were tax breaks and subsidies then too, and people took them. But of course, they don’t last forever and, without subsidies to replace them, and not being all that effective anyway, they ended up in landfills.

So today, based on what you’re saying, I will pay $20,000 to cover my roof with solar panels (that’s after I cut down some trees to avoid shading them). Then when the hail wrecks them, (which, around here in Tornado Alley, would take from one to three years) I’ll have to spend $100,000 to replace them? But Lapey, lots of us would still be paying on the home improvement loan for the $20,000.

Think I’ll pass on that deal.

 

[lynnvinc]

How do you go through life thinking people are so inherently evil? So now Dick Chaney is purposely poisoning people for profit? You have no proof that anything that has been blamed on fracking is true. You are truly misled and a perfect example of how screwed up our higher education system is in our country. I feel for you and will pray for you.

Okay, next you are going to say that the film GASLANDS is totally bogus and all the folks who gave testamony on it about their contaminated water, soil, and air were hired actors pulling off a great hoax.

Why are the fracking companies so afraid to have fracking fluids regulated and monitored (except diesel, which is), if the process is as safe as you and they claim? And I do think it can be done a lot safer.

However, it isn’t being done nearly as safely as it could, bec companies can get away with doing it dangerously to ensure higher profits for themselves. See water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/class2/hydraulicfracturing/wells_hydroreg.cfm “Congress provided for exclusions to UIC [underground injection control] authority…, however, with the most recent language added via the Energy Policy Act of 2005:… excludes – (i) the underground injection of natural gas for purposes of storage; and (ii) the underground injection of fluids or propping agents (other than diesel fuels) pursuant to hydraulic fracturing operations related to oil, gas, or geothermal production activities.”

Note that Obama seems perfectly happy with this and is promoting unregulated fracking. So both sides are corrupt, not just Chenney & Bush.

Another issue is that a lot of fracking operations are smaller and emit below legal limits, tho the sum total of all the emissions from all those companies in an area could be quite high – acc to one study the air pollution from the hundreds of fracking operations around the Ft. Worth area are greater than auto pollution.

Those pepole whose water has been irrepairably contaminated by fracking fluids and methane have no gov agency to turn to, because the industry is largely unregulated. So all they can do it sue the company, and good luck with little guys trying to sue big guys.

And if companies do pay some settlement, plaintiffs often have to sign non-disclosure agreements not to ever talk about the contamination and their harms. Makes it difficult to research into such harms and get a clear picture.

So people have to keep in mind that “no knowledge” of some harm, does not mean it is not happening. Some people may NOT be attributing their harms to some contamination source (even when science has established a link), and others may have signed nondisclosure agreements. Or science may not have yet established a link at 95% confidence, maybe only 80% confidence.

But God knows. And God would expect us to be prudent in our actions not to harm others or self, even when we don’t have perfect or full knowledge; and would expect us to help protect others, esp the more vulnerable and less able to protect themselves.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Solar is no more a good source now than it was in the late 1970s and 1980s. Yes, there were tax breaks and subsidies then too, and people took them. But of course, they don’t last forever and, without subsidies to replace them, and not being all that effective anyway, they ended up in landfills.

So today, based on what you’re saying, I will pay $20,000 to cover my roof with solar panels (that’s after I cut down some trees to avoid shading them). Then when the hail wrecks them, (which, around here in Tornado Alley, would take from one to three years) I’ll have to spend $100,000 to replace them? But Lapey, lots of us would still be paying on the home improvement loan for the $20,000.

Think I’ll pass on that deal.

I’ve seen too many broken and unused solar panels in my area. People leave them in until it’s time to put in a new roof.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t think solar energy is limited to certain regions, necessarily. It can be captured in Arizona, say, and shipped to Maine, in theory at least.

Shipping all that sunlight will require an awful lot of mason jars, Tomarin. Where are they all going to come from?

 

[tomarin]

Shipping all that sunlight will require an awful lot of mason jars, Tomarin. Where are they all going to come from?

That’s why I added “the devil is in the details.”

But I do have a solution: the job of shipping the solar energy would fall to an army of malevolent gnomes.

 

[Lapey]

Okay, next you are going to say that the film GASLANDS is totally bogus and all the folks who gave testamony on it about their contaminated water, soil, and air were hired actors pulling off a great hoax.

Note that Obama seems perfectly happy with this and is promoting unregulated fracking. So both sides are corrupt, not just Chenney & Bush.Why is it B & C have to be brought up in every conversation? Deflection of attention maybe?

But God knows. And God would expect us to be prudent in our actions not to harm others or self, even when we don’t have perfect or full knowledge; and would expect us to help protect others, esp the more vulnerable and less able to protect themselves.

The hoax is this, the issues with the water sources you talk about were contaminated long before fracking was used. Methane burning in water sources exist in nature. Methane comes from the ground naturally as does water; this should not be a shock to you. The fact that the contamination is not in question, the source is. You have nothing to prove fracking caused this pre-existing condition; but Obama Care can take care of that PEC.

God does know all, especially when in the name of the environmental crisis hoax we cause more pain and death to good people who seem to be more proportionately poor and helpless while at the same time making rich people richer; which is exactly what statistics show is happening under this current administration.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Okay, next you are going to say that the film GASLANDS is totally bogus and all the folks who gave testamony on it about their contaminated water, soil, and air were hired actors pulling off a great hoax.

Why are the fracking companies so afraid to have fracking fluids regulated and monitored (except diesel, which is), if the process is as safe as you and they claim? And I do think it can be done a lot safer.

.

Not totally bogus. I don’t doubt the credits are accurately stated; producer, director, key grip, musical director, best boy, and so on.

No need for hired actors. I am sure if I had a week to do it in, I could find at least 50 people who absolutely, positively will swear they were abducted by aliens, and they’ll produce their various artifacts and physical results to prove it. I probably wouldn’t even have to pay them to be in my movie. If they were going to be in a movie, they would probably pay me to be in it.

Within two weeks I could find 100 people who will swear their children (or they) were poisoned by childhood vaccinations, and they will know at least five “experts” who will, with charts and graphs demonstrate that it’s so.

Within two days I could find 10 people who would swear that they had been severely poisoned by cows’ milk and their immune systems fatally compromised by it, and were snatched from the brink of death by turning to organic goats’ milk or soy milk or something.

And, of course, the people who can demonstrate, and have artifacts to prove it, that the government is altering the weather with foil strips, balloons that release gases, and, of course, those tell-tale chemical vapor trails in the sky that the government deceptively says are jet trails, are a dime a dozen.

 

[qui_est_ce]

That’s why I added “the devil is in the details.”

But I do have a solution: the job of shipping the solar energy would fall to an army of malevolent gnomes.

 

[Lapey]

I’m glad you’re on the side of clean coal.

I also know that wastes can be disposed of in a lot safer ways. For instance if they incinerate toxins at high enough temps, etc. But what happens in reality is the bottom line drags them to reduce those temps and emit toxic pollution into the air we breathe (just one type of example). And there are unforseen accidents, and known accidents-in-the-making – like the TVA didn’t address the weaknesses and cracks in their coal ash dam in E. Tennessee, which finally burst.

We need people to be informed and vigilent and hold gov and industries’ feet to the fire and make them protect the people from undue risks and harms.

And we need a holistic approach, understanding that we will continue to need fossil fuels well into the future, even if alt energy reaches its max potential.

The electric utility industry has produced methods and technologies to burn coal much more efficiently and cleaner than anyone ever imagined. there are new technologies in scrubbers and boilers which have changes the output of impurities tremendously, and still being found. We have to do this, its the right thing to do. Your president and colleagues want to end coal as a fuel, not improve its use but end it.

You mention the TVA; you know why it is an issue? You guessed it, it is government owned and operated.