Obama Announces New Climate Plan

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I am on my knees, tears in my eyes to appeal to all of you to please do what you can to reduce your personal and household GHGs at least in ways that don’t cost or save you money immediates, short-run or long-run, whatever is feasible and economically sensible.

You do not have to like any plans. You can hate me if you want. But please do this, not for me, but just in case, outside chance those wicked climate scientists might just by fluke be correct. Please do it for the children, for the future, for the poor of the earth. I’m not asking you to give charity, just do whatever is sensible economically that also helps reduce GHGs. If people could at the least do that, that would be very wonderful.

You don’t even have to tell me. Let me go to my grave thinking I’m a total failure. Just please consider it.
Luckily it has been a much cooler summer than usual so we were able to suffer through the heat until mid-July before we turned on our air condition. When it’s not been raining (which we have been blessed with an abundance) I hang my clothes on the line to dry. Although I would love to make mass at least a couple of days during the week, I stay at home and save my gas. I can’t afford one of those volts. Doubt it would make many trips down my road anyhow. You can thank our President and his economic (or lack of) plan for this. Maybe I wouldn’t feel so bad about all this if him and Al felt they should do the same to save the world instead of flying all over it.
 
Lynn, I don’t think anybody hates you. It seems that your concern comes from a place of genuinely good intentions. We should take care of the planet; on that count you are correct. However, once you start peeling back the outer veneer of the “science” of climate alarmists, there is “no there there”. It’s become so intrinsically tied to politics and dubious business ventures that in many cases do more harm than good.

You are asking those who disagree with your opinions to consider your point of view. Will you consider the point of view of the skeptics?
 
Luckily it has been a much cooler summer than usual so we were able to suffer through the heat until mid-July before we turned on our air condition. When it’s not been raining (which we have been blessed with an abundance) I hang my clothes on the line to dry. Although I would love to make mass at least a couple of days during the week, I stay at home and save my gas. I can’t afford one of those volts. Doubt it would make many trips down my road anyhow. You can thank our President and his economic (or lack of) plan for this. Maybe I wouldn’t feel so bad about all this if him and Al felt they should do the same to save the world instead of flying all over it.
Yes, we have been blessed with cooler weather and abundant rainfall this summer as well.

When my kids were babies I used cloth diapers and hung them in the sun to dry.
 
I am on my knees, tears in my eyes to appeal to all of you to please do what you can to reduce your personal and household GHGs at least in ways that don’t cost or save you money immediates, short-run or long-run, whatever is feasible and economically sensible.

You do not have to like any plans. You can hate me if you want. But please do this, not for me, but just in case, outside chance those wicked climate scientists might just by fluke be correct. Please do it for the children, for the future, for the poor of the earth. I’m not asking you to give charity, just do whatever is sensible economically that also helps reduce GHGs. If people could at the least do that, that would be very wonderful.

You don’t even have to tell me. Let me go to my grave thinking I’m a total failure. Just please consider it.
I have, from the very first time I saw any of your MMGW posts, agreed that people ought to save energy. It’s the responsible thing to do for a number of reasons. You know that, and you know I have always said that.

Where we depart is where you endorse Obama’s anti-human agenda to make energy artificially expensive for the poor, the elderly and the jobless. I realize he purports to base it on all those MMGW opinions (now starting to fade) that garnered a lot of agreement a few years ago. But cruelty is cruelty is cruelty, and Obama obviously has no belief in MMGW himself. So what are we left to think about it? Well, it’s a money-raiser for him and for his billionaire friends, none of whom act as if they believe in it either. I am not willing, nor is the majority willing any more, to support imposing burdens on those who can least afford it, all for the sake of Obama’s determination to raise enough money to achieve his goal of wiping the Repub party off the face of the political map.

And I’m not even a Republican. But one doesn’t have to be a Republican to be concerned about the total concentration of power Obama and his people seek, and particularly when they obviously have no compunction against employing cruel measures to achieve it.
 
Maybe they have grandchildren they are actually concerned about…bec as we ALL know, fossil-fuel-funded denialist industry fake-science spin aside, AGW is happening and is and will have very harms effects, but some of us just don’t want to take responsibility for it. It’s what you call fallen human nature.
You have been brain washed into believing industry is bad, profit is evil and the only entity which cares for people is government. Yet you have completely chosen to ignore the hurt placed on real people right now; instead you trump up charges that we who do not believe the lies do not care about our kids and grandkids. This is not charitable on your part. In fact it’s down right ugly.

You choose to use the tactic of fear and shame to convince people of your view, while completely ignoring the view of the other side.

PS. AWG is not happening and your sides policies are causing more damage and pain to grand kids now in real time than AWG will ever, because it is a pipe dream of Al Gore!
 
I am on my knees, tears in my eyes to appeal to all of you to please do what you can to reduce your personal and household GHGs at least in ways that don’t cost or save you money immediates, short-run or long-run, whatever is feasible and economically sensible.

You do not have to like any plans. You can hate me if you want. But please do this, not for me, but just in case, outside chance those wicked climate scientists might just by fluke be correct. Please do it for the children, for the future, for the poor of the earth. I’m not asking you to give charity, just do whatever is sensible economically that also helps reduce GHGs. If people could at the least do that, that would be very wonderful.

You don’t even have to tell me. Let me go to my grave thinking I’m a total failure. Just please consider it.
And I am on my knees praying for you to get your head out of the sand to see what this once great country is doing TO its people. We are building a dependant nation, a nation of people who will need to be fed, clothed, housed, etc. Because of hate filled policies. Yes I meant to write hate filled. The liberal left in America hates our greatness as a nation; it has for quite some time. They hate business and success, they hate prosperity and independence. The left despises people like the Koch brothers at the same time they build people like Al Gore into billionaires earned mostly through government and lies.

This is what is ridiculed by the left and called trickle down “voo doo” economics. When individuals make money, a strong middle class is built. When we crush the industry leaders, we crush the middle class. When the Koch brothers venture into new business, guess what, THEY HIRE PEOPLE!!! I mentioned in one of my first posts that the fortune 500 company I work for announced lay offs last week, but you ignored it. You also ignored why they are laying off, EPA regs and Obama-Care.

I’m with you on one thing; we need to do some serious praying. The problems facing America are man made and you are toting the line for the ones causing it.

Lets think about things this way, I believe that the people who prop up these lies and cause these policy change do more harm in ten years to people in this country than all of the coal burned in America in the same ten years.

Its time for us to acknowledge the Creator and worship Him and live in His world as use the resources He has designed and provided for us to use. Its time for us to understand that conservation and caring for the environment is needed and is a good thing as long as it does not move toward the extreme which is where we are now. When our conversation and caring for the environment goes to this extreme as to literally hurt people, we must know and trust God enough to see we have gone too far. We have much work to do to reverse the paths we have traveled the last 20 or so years, but the first priority is to stop taking on water, plug the holes.

We must start by throwing out all of the crew that wants to continue this destructive path; the fear mongering politicians. It does not matter what the party affiliation is, if they are pro-abortion and/or pro-MMGW I will vote and campaign against them.
 
The left despises people like the Koch brothers …
The Koch brothers have already been brought up in this thread as an example of the powerful exertions that the right has in twisting the American mind. Without debating the idea of whether or not Koch’s influence is insidious, one has only to point to the amount of money that left-wing organziations have at their disposal in selling their version of ‘scientific’ truth.

frontpagemag.com/2012/paul-schnee/david-horowitz-discusses-the-new-leviathan-at-the-wednesday-morning-club/
 
The Koch brothers have already been brought up in this thread as an example of the powerful exertions that the right has in twisting the American mind. Without debating the idea of whether or not Koch’s influence is insidious, one has only to point to the amount of money that left-wing organziations have at their disposal in selling their version of ‘scientific’ truth.

frontpagemag.com/2012/paul-schnee/david-horowitz-discusses-the-new-leviathan-at-the-wednesday-morning-club/
It’s amazing how well the anti-science crowd always makes an appeal to postmodern interpretations of science. There is no truth, there is just one’s perspective. There is no objective reality, there is just your political and social milieu. Really, for Catholics to make this line of argument is to jettison the entire theological framework on which the Church relies.

This trend occurs in all the areas of controversial science – epidemiology (where the PR industry first piloted the method for cigarette makers), geology and astronomy (big bang theory), biology (natural selection).

Here’s my challenge: show me a single global climate model that includes all the major physical and chemical processes that have been identified as influential on the climate and does not predict that increased anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases does NOT cause global mean temperature to rise between 1950 and 2100. Just a single model is all it takes, and you skeptics will convince me.
 
It’s amazing how well the anti-science crowd always makes an appeal to postmodern interpretations of science. There is no truth, there is just one’s perspective. There is no objective reality, there is just your political and social milieu. Really, for Catholics to make this line of argument is to jettison the entire theological framework on which the Church relies.

This trend occurs in all the areas of controversial science – epidemiology (where the PR industry first piloted the method for cigarette makers), geology and astronomy (big bang theory), biology (natural selection).

Here’s my challenge: show me a single global climate model that includes all the major physical and chemical processes that have been identified as influential on the climate and does not predict that increased anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases does NOT cause global mean temperature to rise between 1950 and 2100. Just a single model is all it takes, and you skeptics will convince me.
Show me a single climate model that correctly predicted the “stall” in global warming the last 13 years.
 
Show me a single climate model that correctly predicted the “stall” in global warming the last 13 years.
I can’t do that, but I’d be careful about defining too narrow a hoop for any model to jump through. Uncertainties in land cover and emission inventories affect the ensemble of averages that GCMs produce. You have to keep in mind: garbage in, garbage out. But the climate models themselves are all consistent in predicting a positive sensitivity of global mean temperatures to GHG emissions.

I don’t trust any single model prediction, but take the envelope of all predictions as indicative of the limits of precision we can have. However, my challenge is a valid one because models are the only way to figure out how all of the interacting processes in air, water, land, and sun behave together. To my mind, dynamic models that include the fundamental processes of energy transfer, matter flow, and chemistry are the only way to systematically assess the impact that GHG have over decades.

My challenge remains because I don’t believe that there is a single model that systematically tries to account for all of our knowledge of the processes of meteorology, oceanography, and geology and concludes that GHG changes over the last 100 years and predicted for the next 100 years don’t explain the first-order changes in temperature over time.

Edited: here is New Scientist’s magazine’s take on the allegation of a “stall.”
newscientist.com/article/dn23060-has-global-warming-ground-to-a-halt.html#.UghJomS9Kc0
 
It’s amazing how well the anti-science crowd … postmodern interpretations of science.
Calling those who disagree anti-science is a point of rhetoric, and not a point of fact.

There is no anti-science crowd. Yours is an troll from ad hominem that doesn’t even address what I posted,
 
Here’s my challenge: show me a single global climate model that includes all the major physical and chemical processes that have been identified as influential on the climate and does not predict that increased anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases does NOT cause global mean temperature to rise between 1950 and 2100. Just a single model is all it takes, and you skeptics will convince me.
Can we do that standing, or do we have to do it on ice skates while simultanteously blowing a bugle?

This is just silly. No matter whose study one looks at, and no matter what side of it the study is on, nobody takes all imaginable influences into account because one can’t. Many are verly poorly understood and likely there are many that are virtually unknown. For example, it’s known that plate subduction and spreading releases CO2 and methane, but nobody has a clue how much. Nor does anybody have any idea how much that and plate spreading causes ocean warming.
 
I can’t do that, but I’d be careful about defining too narrow a hoop for any model to jump through. Uncertainties in land cover and emission inventories affect the ensemble of averages that GCMs produce. You have to keep in mind: garbage in, garbage out. But the climate models themselves are all consistent in predicting a positive sensitivity of global mean temperatures to GHG emissions…html#.UghJomS9Kc0
That’s the problem - “global warming” only lasted about 15 years - talk about your narrow hoop.
 
That’s the problem - “global warming” only lasted about 15 years - talk about your narrow hoop.
That is undoubtedly why they now say “climate change”. If it was warming, then quit warming, that’s “climate change”. Do you get it now? 😉
 
I have, from the very first time I saw any of your MMGW posts, agreed that people ought to save energy. It’s the responsible thing to do for a number of reasons. You know that, and you know I have always said that.

Where we depart is where you endorse Obama’s anti-human agenda** to make energy artificially expensive for the poor, the elderly and the jobless.** I realize he purports to base it on all those MMGW opinions (now starting to fade) that garnered a lot of agreement a few years ago. But cruelty is cruelty is cruelty, and Obama obviously has no belief in MMGW himself. So what are we left to think about it? Well, it’s a money-raiser for him and for his billionaire friends, none of whom act as if they believe in it either. I am not willing, nor is the majority willing any more, to support imposing burdens on those who can least afford it, all for the sake of Obama’s determination to raise enough money to achieve his goal of wiping the Repub party off the face of the political map.

And I’m not even a Republican. But one doesn’t have to be a Republican to be concerned about the total concentration of power Obama and his people seek, and particularly when they obviously have no compunction against employing cruel measures to achieve it.
.
 
The main problem with this discussion is that one side is using science to determine their stance on the issue, and the other side is using “their gut”. Now don’t misunderstand me: questioning a scientific finding does NOT make you anti-science! If anything, questioning what someone else tells you makes you a BETTER scientist. The problem is HOW you question them. The anti-climate change crowd has all the hallmarks of an anti-science, anti-evidence conspiracy theory crowd.

Let me explain how science works. If you want to prove something, you need a set goal. Here’s an example, right from the top of my head so it’s pretty bad. Let’s say you wanted to prove that human vitamins could make plants grow more. You set up a control group and an experimental group, and record the results. But you can’t just say “the experimental group grew more, the experiment worked”. Before the experiment starts, you need to have a goal to reach. Something that would minimize any natural variations between plants. So you would say “if the experimental group is 5% bigger by the end, the experiment worked”. If they’re only 4% bigger, then you chalk it up to natural variations. If they’re 6% bigger, then you can say you have proved your hypothesis.

The anti-climate change crowd has no such goal, that is why they are unscientific. If you point out all the research that has been done to prove climate change, they want “more” research. How much more? No one knows. A year’s worth? A decade? How much more research is necessary before they will change their minds? They can come up with no number, because they are not scientific. They don’t want to believe in climate change, so no matter much evidence you give, they will always ask for more.

They claim the researchers are paid off by the government to fake climate change. They point to the researchers who do not believe in it to prove their point. So what would happen if these researchers suddenly looked at it another way, and realized climate change was real? Would it change the crowd’s minds at all? Of course not, the crowd will simply claim those researchers are getting paid off as well.

In the winter, they claim the cold weather disproves climate change. In the summer, they claim it exists, just not caused by man. They point to the Medieval Warm Period as proof that climate change can happen without humans. When you point out that all temperatures in the Medieval Warm Period were taken into account when the current climate models were created, they switch and point to some other evidence instead.

This is how you can tell if you are on the right side or not. We have climate models. We can guess, based on our predictions, what the temperature changes should be in upcoming years. If actual changes are significantly different from our models, we know our models are wrong and we can revisit them. We are using science. We have a goal, and we know whether or not climate change is happening on whether or not we reach our goal. They have no goal, because they are not using science. They have set no threshold at which they will agree climate change is real. They have created no scenario by which their minds can be changed, because they don’t want them to be changed. The last thing they want is to admit they were wrong, so they make it impossible for this to ever occur.

If I am wrong, prove it. Give me a benchmark by which you can be convinced you are wrong. I believe our benchmark is 5% (if a climate model is off by more than 5%, it is considered invalid). We have a goal, do you? Is there a set number by which you will admit you’re wrong? Or will you keep moving the goalpost until you run out of room?

In case you are unconvinced, recall the birth certificate “controversy”. People were convinced that Obama was not qualified for office. So, he showed them a certificate of birth proving he was born in Hawaii. Of course this did not convince them, because they didn’t want to be convinced. So he showed them his official birth certificate. Of course this did not convince them, because they didn’t want to be convinced. They claimed it was fake. Now they “win” because there’s no way of proving it’s not fake. They moved the goalpost so far, they’ve ignored so much evidence that there simply is no more evidence to give. We are quickly approaching that point with climate change as well.
 
The main problem with this discussion is that one side is using science to determine their stance on the issue, and the other side is using “their gut”. Now don’t misunderstand me: questioning a scientific finding does NOT make you anti-science! If anything, questioning what someone else tells you makes you a BETTER scientist. The problem is HOW you question them. The anti-climate change crowd has all the hallmarks of an anti-science, anti-evidence conspiracy theory crowd.
You’re wrong about this. In this and many, many prior threads about the same thing, a great deal of scientific evidence challenging MMGW or whatever it’s called today, has been produced. It has simply been ignored or responded to with a deluge of environmentalist tracts, largely defaming the sources or simply starting from the same old premises and ignoring contrary evidence.

MMGW is an ideology, really, and nobody is going to convince any MMGW believer of anything, no matter what they produce in the way of evidence, so it really does sometimes come down to simply arguing the logic of the thing.

It appears the majority of Americans now have come to disbelieve the MMGW ideology. Possibly it has lived out its time except among those who are invested in it financially.
 
The main problem with this discussion is that one side is using science to determine their stance on the issue, and the other side is using “their gut”. Now don’t misunderstand me: questioning a scientific finding does NOT make you anti-science! If anything, questioning what someone else tells you makes you a BETTER scientist. The problem is HOW you question them. The anti-climate change crowd has all the hallmarks of an anti-science, anti-evidence conspiracy theory crowd.

Let me explain how science works. If you want to prove something, you need a set goal. Here’s an example, right from the top of my head so it’s pretty bad. Let’s say you wanted to prove that human vitamins could make plants grow more. You set up a control group and an experimental group, and record the results. But you can’t just say “the experimental group grew more, the experiment worked”. Before the experiment starts, you need to have a goal to reach. Something that would minimize any natural variations between plants. So you would say “if the experimental group is 5% bigger by the end, the experiment worked”. If they’re only 4% bigger, then you chalk it up to natural variations. If they’re 6% bigger, then you can say you have proved your hypothesis…
•The steps of the scientific method are to:

◦Ask a Question
◦Do Background Research
◦Construct a Hypothesis
◦Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
◦Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
◦Communicate Your Results

The problem is the “scientist” are skipping step 4. The other problem is observed weather patterns conflict with the communicated results. Can you name a single person promoting MMGW that predicted the 17 year absence of temperature increases (or the current temperature declines)?

They claim computer models take the place of testing - but anyone that programs computers will tell you that a program is designed to give a specific answer - I wonder what answer was programmed into their models?

As for Obama and his birth certificate - who cares and what does that do besides show your ham handed attempt to demonize people?
 
The main problem with this discussion is that one side is using science to determine their stance on the issue, and the other side is using “their gut”. Now don’t misunderstand me: questioning a scientific finding does NOT make you anti-science! If anything, questioning what someone else tells you makes you a BETTER scientist. The problem is HOW you question them. The anti-climate change crowd has all the hallmarks of an anti-science, anti-evidence conspiracy theory crowd.

Let me explain how science works. If you want to prove something, you need a set goal. Here’s an example, right from the top of my head so it’s pretty bad. Let’s say you wanted to prove that human vitamins could make plants grow more. You set up a control group and an experimental group, and record the results. But you can’t just say “the experimental group grew more, the experiment worked”. Before the experiment starts, you need to have a goal to reach. Something that would minimize any natural variations between plants. So you would say “if the experimental group is 5% bigger by the end, the experiment worked”. If they’re only 4% bigger, then you chalk it up to natural variations. If they’re 6% bigger, then you can say you have proved your hypothesis.

The anti-climate change crowd has no such goal, that is why they are unscientific. If you point out all the research that has been done to prove climate change, they want “more” research. How much more? No one knows. A year’s worth? A decade? How much more research is necessary before they will change their minds? They can come up with no number, because they are not scientific. They don’t want to believe in climate change, so no matter much evidence you give, they will always ask for more.

They claim the researchers are paid off by the government to fake climate change. They point to the researchers who do not believe in it to prove their point. So what would happen if these researchers suddenly looked at it another way, and realized climate change was real? Would it change the crowd’s minds at all? Of course not, the crowd will simply claim those researchers are getting paid off as well.

In the winter, they claim the cold weather disproves climate change. In the summer, they claim it exists, just not caused by man. They point to the Medieval Warm Period as proof that climate change can happen without humans. When you point out that all temperatures in the Medieval Warm Period were taken into account when the current climate models were created, they switch and point to some other evidence instead.

This is how you can tell if you are on the right side or not. We have climate models. We can guess, based on our predictions, what the temperature changes should be in upcoming years. If actual changes are significantly different from our models, we know our models are wrong and we can revisit them. We are using science. We have a goal, and we know whether or not climate change is happening on whether or not we reach our goal. They have no goal, because they are not using science. They have set no threshold at which they will agree climate change is real. They have created no scenario by which their minds can be changed, because they don’t want them to be changed. The last thing they want is to admit they were wrong, so they make it impossible for this to ever occur.

If I am wrong, prove it. Give me a benchmark by which you can be convinced you are wrong. I believe our benchmark is 5% (if a climate model is off by more than 5%, it is considered invalid). We have a goal, do you? Is there a set number by which you will admit you’re wrong? Or will you keep moving the goalpost until you run out of room?

In case you are unconvinced, recall the birth certificate “controversy”. People were convinced that Obama was not qualified for office. So, he showed them a certificate of birth proving he was born in Hawaii. Of course this did not convince them, because they didn’t want to be convinced. So he showed them his official birth certificate. Of course this did not convince them, because they didn’t want to be convinced. They claimed it was fake. Now they “win” because there’s no way of proving it’s not fake. They moved the goalpost so far, they’ve ignored so much evidence that there simply is no more evidence to give. We are quickly approaching that point with climate change as well.
The first benchmark should be evidencece the planet is warming
 
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