Obama Announces New Climate Plan

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Take a deep breath. This discussion has been going nowhere for quite some time. It’s plain to see that both sides are convinced they are right and both sides are convinced the evidence is on their side. I don’t think a situation like this will be solved by more argumentation, do any of you? Better we all remain friends.
 
JamesCaruso said:
Take a deep breath. This discussion has been going nowhere for quite some time. It’s plain to see that both sides are convinced they are right and both sides are convinced the evidence is on their side. I don’t think a situation like this will be solved by more argumentation, do any of you? Better we all remain friends.
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I’m kind of having fun now, no argument.😃
 
Lapey said:
What is the insult?🤷
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You don’t see, “leftists trying to scare others or shame them into compliance with the lies of our federal government” as an insult?

Shame? scare? lies? Do you see that in a quote such as this?

“In this context, one considers relations between human activity and climate change which, given their extreme complexity, must be opportunely and constantly monitored at the scientific, political and juridical, national and international levels. The climate is a good that must be protected and reminds consumers and those engaged in industrial activity to develop a greater sense of responsibility for their behaviour.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#III
 
Michael_Mayo said:
You don’t see, “leftists trying to scare others or shame them into compliance with the lies of our federal government” as an insult?

Shame? scare? lies? Do you see that in a quote such as this?

“In this context, one considers relations between human activity and climate change which, given their extreme complexity, must be opportunely and constantly monitored at the scientific, political and juridical, national and international levels. The climate is a good that must be protected and reminds consumers and those engaged in industrial activity to develop a greater sense of responsibility for their behaviour.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#III
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This quotation does not purport to establish that there IS climate change, let alone manmade global warming. It’s simply an expression of concern which, back in 2005 when this was written, seemed considerably more concerning than it does now.

Most definitely, this document does not identify any particular source of “climate change”. Given that ongoing desertification can definitely cause “climate change” and is probably a vastly more concerning source that CO2 emissions (if, indeed they are contributors) using this document to support limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food through artificial constraints on energy usage is a misapplication. That is particularly so since the document encourages making adequate provision for universal access to the world’s goods.
 
I’ll say I am continually amazed that some support Obama and his partisans in a plan to (as Obama admits) “make utility bills skyrocket”. The current MMGW “plan” (which is not a plan but a group of vague talking points) will operate to the disadvantage of the poor and, indeed, the greater part of the populace, and to the advantage of the super-wealthy who have invested billions in the presently artificial “alternative energy” business.

It would be difficult to imagine anything currently more unchristian in our political environment, other than abortion.

But then, it would be unrealistic to expect those who are insoucient of human life in one way to care much about it in other ways.
 
Ridgerunner said:
It would be difficult to imagine anything currently more unchristian in our political environment, other than abortion.
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He still has most of his 2nd term left so I’m sure we’ll see something to top them both.
 
Ridgerunner said:
This quotation does not purport to establish that there IS climate change, let alone manmade global warming. It’s simply an expression of concern which, back in 2005 when this was written, seemed considerably more concerning than it does now.

Most definitely, this document does not identify any particular source of “climate change”. Given that ongoing desertification can definitely cause “climate change” and is probably a vastly more concerning source that CO2 emissions (if, indeed they are contributors) using this document to support limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food through artificial constraints on energy usage is a misapplication. That is particularly so since the document encourages making adequate provision for universal access to the world’s goods.
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I see your point. But “support limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food through artificial constraints on energy usage” is an unfair conclusion. Asserting that people concerned about AGW do not care about poor people having less access (and certainly it will always be the poor who lack full access) is deflecting the conversation. There can always be ways to assist access. The call is to recognize that the climate is a good, a common good that must be protected. The call is to develop a greater sense of responsibility for our behavior.

We do need to be realistic. We will always have an influence on our air and water. Even if it turns out that CO2 is not that big a problem, is this where you want to live?

www.nationalgeographic.com

Environment

From deforestation to pollution, environmental challenges are growing—but so are the solutions. Our environment coverage explores the world’s environmental issues through stories on groundbreaking research and inspiring individuals making a difference for our planet.
www.nationalgeographic.com www.nationalgeographic.com

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/e/t/etc127/LA-smog-2.jpg

🤷
 
I cannot help but wonder if you see any current environmental threats **at all **that need action.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
You don’t see, “leftists trying to scare others or shame them into compliance with the lies of our federal government” as an insult?

Shame? scare? lies? Do you see that in a quote such as this?

“In this context, one considers relations between human activity and climate change which, given their extreme complexity, must be opportunely and constantly monitored at the scientific, political and juridical, national and international levels. The climate is a good that must be protected and reminds consumers and those engaged in industrial activity to develop a greater sense of responsibility for their behaviour.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html#III
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I’m so sorry, what term should I use to describe a left leaning person who backs liberal views and scorns conservative opinions as uncharitable and uncaring? The comments I made were in response to a post by the OP looking down his nose at people who like me do not buy into this myth. In his post he painted me as a person who is selfish and doesn’t care about people affected by disasters. That is insulting.

Why are you answering for him? Why is it every time I bring up real people being hurt right now, by this administration and its government authorities it is ignored? I can answer that one, because some feel that this myth is a greater threat than hunger and poverty. We have to be able to one day come together and be good stewards without doing direct harm to the people whom Jesus Himself instructed us to care for.

We are doing great harm to people, right now! Can’t you see this? If not it’s time for you to get outside and look around. Get to where Jesus is, in the poorest places in this country and the world, this is what I was ordained for. I just never thought I would be ministering to people we have made belong to the class of the needy.

We are bring our nation and population down to the third world nations, not improving others lives to ours. It’s like we are ashamed for being who we are and accomplishing what we have as a nation. Its time to lead from ahead, not drag down to the rear; or as Mr. Obama says, “lead from behind”. That is just silly.

Do you agree with Putin that it is dangerous to think America is exceptional?
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I see your point. But “support limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food through artificial constraints on energy usage” is an unfair conclusion. Asserting that people concerned about AGW do not care about poor people having less access (and certainly it will always be the poor who lack full access) is deflecting the conversation. There can always be ways to assist access. The call is to recognize that the climate is a good, a common good that must be protected. The call is to develop a greater sense of responsibility for our behavior.

We do need to be realistic. We will always have an influence on our air and water. Even if it turns out that CO2 is not that big a problem, is this where you want to live?

http://environment.nationalgeograph...Global_Warming/greenhousefactor-758734-lw.jpg

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/e/t/etc127/LA-smog-2.jpg

🤷
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Are you saying that as a nation, we have not made vast improvements and continue with these improvements on air quality? Please do research on these photos, I would bet that these photos are from the 70’s or 80’s long before the attention was placed because of the real issues of air pollution.

This is the problem, we used a real threat to promote mythology; in the mean time people like Al Gore have literally become billionaires because of fear fostered by the mythologists. It is hypocrisy and greed, not Christianity and charity.

Do we still have serious air pollution problemns? We most certainly do, but we haven’t focussed on these issues for years instead of working off of the progress that was being made. We have put all of our eggs in the MMGW basket and we have lost credibility because of the myths.
 
Lapey said:
Why are you answering for him? Why is it every time I bring up real people being hurt right now, by this administration and its government authorities it is ignored? I can answer that one, because some feel that this myth is a greater threat than hunger and poverty. We have to be able to one day come together and be good stewards without doing direct harm to the people whom Jesus Himself instructed us to care for.

We are doing great harm to people, right now! Can’t you see this? If not it’s time for you to get outside and look around. Get to where Jesus is, in the poorest places in this country and the world, this is what I was ordained for. I just never thought I would be ministering to people we have made belong to the class of the needy.
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Are you not talking about me as well?

What is your “conservative” solution for people being hurt right now? For their hunger and poverty? Yes I am well acquainted with this class of needy and not far from them myself.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I cannot help but wonder if you see any current environmental threats **at all **that need action.
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The long term threat we have right now is all the regulation being put in place by this and previous administrations that is causing the poor to suffer and the middle and upper classes to move toward being poor. We are stealing our future generation’s ability to survive; we will have the first generation of offspring that will NOT be better off then the previous. This is our fault.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I see your point. But “support limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food through artificial constraints on energy usage” is an unfair conclusion. Asserting that people concerned about AGW do not care about poor people having less access (and certainly it will always be the poor who lack full access) is deflecting the conversation. There can always be ways to assist access. The call is to recognize that the climate is a good, a common good that must be protected. The call is to develop a greater sense of responsibility for our behavior.

:
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Seems to me that causing utility bills to “skyrocket” (Obama’s promise) is precisely a limitation of human access to heat, cooling, transportation and food. I can’t imagine the converse being seriously maintained.

And most definitely stifling energy production through fossil fuels that are economically viable and using public money to subsidize otherwise uneconomic alternative means, constitute “artificial constraints”.

I do not maintain that ALL people who are concerned about MMGW are careless toward the populace, and particularly the poor, only that the governmental and business proponents of “MMGW mitigation” measures manifestly are. Among other things, they don’t live as if they believe it themselves.

And I have noticed a fundamental lack of any proposals that will ameliorate the effect of “skyrocketing” utilities on the poplace at larget, let alone the poor. Inasmuch as the current administration has done nothing for the poor in any other way, I find it difficult to imagine that it will suddenly do so in this particular way.
 
Lapey said:
Please do research on these photos, I would bet that these photos are from the 70’s or 80’s long before the attention was placed because of the real issues of air pollution.
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Why would I do that when you do not believe anything I link.
You can research them yourself.
Lapey said:
This is the problem, we used a real threat to promote mythology; in the mean time people like Al Gore have literally become billionaires because of fear fostered by the mythologists. It is hypocrisy and greed, not Christianity and charity.
.
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Also get your facts right about Al Gore. I am no fan of his but he is not a thorn in my side either.

money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=06167a85-b554-4bda-b5aa-2c4ec72ac090
 
Michael_Mayo said:
Are you not talking about me as well?

What is your “conservative” solution for people being hurt right now? For their hunger and poverty? Yes I am well acquainted with this class of needy and not far from them myself.
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First off, stop writing policy that directly hurts them without accepting (name removed by moderator)ut from other opinions. This president locks out any opposing views.

It’s like walking into a board meeting, the CEO says, all in favor raise your hand; all opposed, turn in your resignation. That is not democracy.

There have been many conservatives who have done many great things to get us where we are. Who signed the Clean Water Act? Not a democrat. For that matter, who pushed through civil rights in the 60’s? Not democrats. Oh, yea, who ended slavery in America? Not a democrat. So why is the democrat party seen as the caring party? Beats me…

I work for a large utility, the largest operator of nuclear power plants in the world, has this government asked for our help? Nope, they continue to write regulations to shut down plants, Vermont Yankee is the latest victim. We just announced its closure which will cause 750 very good paying career jobs to go away.

Coal fired plants have been proven to be an economical and safe way to produce power and recent history shows that is sensible regulations developed with experts from the industry involved can be implemented and burn coal much cleaner. But this is not what this administration wants, he is on record saying multiple times he will bankrupt the coal industry; and he is on his way to do just that. Can’t we work together? This is not such an imminent danger even if it were all true to justify the catastrophic affects we are inflicting on people right now.

There are so many ways that we can come together and make good environmental decisions without being radical on either side. And I mean radical, we have been led radically left lately with no one from the right able to do anything to stop it. The result? The lowest employment rate in generations, more employable people leaving the work force than ever before which means more people being dependant and stuck in poverty than those who are moving out of poverty and into independence. It is hard for me not to think this is what the left wants, dependency; which means power.
 
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