Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[scipio337]

Please tell me how my argument is a strawman (and my apologies if it is – I just don’t see it).

…doesn’t it mean that they also think all Muslims are responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

The implication is that this is an argument for iamrefreshed, or anyone oppossed to the community center/mosque being built at this site.

 

[JulieAA]

So am I as a Christian responsible for Eric Rudolph or the guy who murdered an abortion doctor recently because Christian ideology was the impetus of their actions?

If I’m not (and I don’t think I am) then how can I blame these particular Muslims for the actions of the 9/11 fanatics?

I think the will of the families who have actually lost loved ones at the towers have every right to feel as they do. We are called not to judge anyone (not our job), but we are all called to the sensitivities of others. Why is it so important to build that mosque in that particular place? The Quaran teaches sensitivity to others, so why is that not addressed?
Rights should not trump sensitivity.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

In addition to requiring solving the mystery of where the $100 million is going to come from [Al Gore’s Buddhist nuns?], .

And the U.S. State Department funding the mega-mosque imam’s fund raising tour to the Middle East.

Then there is the mystery of the hidden six floors of the mosque:

bigpeace.com/cbrim/2010/08/17/ground-zero-mosques-hidden-websites-follow-the-shariah/

The author suggests that perhaps it will be the headquarters of the center to impose Sharia Law. But if you visit the link above, there are a bunch of additional links.

Excerpts:

Follow the Shariah Index Project to solve the puzzle of the 6 mystery floors: We found two hidden websites with copiously deleted information, all about the Imam’s Cordoba Institute Shariah Index Project. For reference, here’s the Imam’s most recent hidden website (also available here as a pdf). And here’s the Imam’s earlier hidden website (also available here as a pdf). The information on those websites – information that the Imam tried to hide with a new whitewashed version – suggests that the six mystery floors of the Ground Zero Mosque will be dedicated to the Imam’s long-term goal: the Shariah Index Project, designed to benchmark Shariah compliance, to distribute Shariah propaganda, and to enforce Shariah law in America and worldwide.

Drawing from those hidden webpages and other sites, we’ve constructed a timeline for the Shariah Index Project and a partial list of Rauf’s partners in the Project. In Part 2, we’ll reveal the disturbing background and views of those partners. And in Part 3, we’ll present the bottom line – how this all ties together as a historic Islamist effort to market and to enforce Shariah in America, starting from Ground Zero.

Numbered Documents, for everyone’s convenience! Below, from the hidden websites, is the evidence Rauf tried to cover-up. We’ve even numbered the Shariah Index Project documents he mentioned, to make it easy for the Imam and his staff – for example, Courtney Erwin, attorney and director of the Shariah Index Project and corporate contact for the Cordoba Institute - to provide copies to the American public.

Courtney Erwin could end the cover-up of these documents today, given her leading role in the Shariah Index Project since its inception. Erwin, by the way, has been working in Doha (Qatar, home of jihad-supporter Sheik Qaradawi, so admired by Imam Rauf) for the past three months. She states that her team includes a “Qatari legal researcher,” presumably for ongoing work on the Shariah Index Project. She may also be working with one of the core Shariah experts partnering in the Shariah Index Project, Dr. Jasser Auda, since January 2010 an Associate Professor in the Public Policy Program, Faculty of Islamic Studies, Qatar Foundation in Qatar. (Qatar is also one of the countries Imam Rauf is scheduled to visit on his State Department-funded trip this summer.) Look for much more on Erwin and Auda in Part 2.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I think the will of the families who have actually lost loved ones at the towers have every right to feel as they do. We are called not to judge anyone (not our job), but we are all called to the sensitivities of others. Why is it so important to build that mosque in that particular place? The Quaran teaches sensitivity to others, so why is that not addressed?
Rights should not trump sensitivity.

Suffering a tragedy does not make one right in opposing a group merely because you feel they are responsible for that tragedy. Full stop.

If you opposed a Catholic church near the site because you felt Catholics were responsible, you had better believe that people would ask you “why do you think Catholics were responsible.” There are precious few, however, willing to ask “why do you think the Muslims at the Islamic center are in any way tied to the terrorists?”

 

[JulieAA]

Suffering a tragedy does not make one right in opposing a group merely because you feel they are responsible for that tragedy. Full stop.

If you opposed a Catholic church near the site because you felt Catholics were responsible, you had better believe that people would ask you “why do you think Catholics were responsible.” There are precious few, however, willing to ask “why do you think the Muslims at the Islamic center are in any way tied to the terrorists?”

You are missing my point. I never said that the Muslim community is responsible for anything. There are many, many good Muslims who are peace loving people. My point: why is it so important to build in that exact place which would be insensitive to those who have lost love ones? Of course they have the right to build anywhere on private land as they choose…the question has to do with: sensitivity.

 

[scipio337]

How so? Why, in your opinion, did the attacks take place here rather than say, Japan? Japan is composed almost entirely of ‘infidels’ rather than ‘Dhimmis’- if the attack was religiously motivated it would seem they were a much better target.

Namely, because Japanese did not station troops in “the land of the two Holy Mosques”.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

But I would also point out the alarmingly low amount of Shinto and Buddhist acts of terrorism against the US, given our much longer and larger military presenses in Japan and South Korea.

Last time I checked, having non-Muslims barred from Islamic holy sites is a belief pretty exclusive to Islam.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

You are missing my point. I never said that the Muslim community is responsible for anything. There are many, many good Muslims who are peace loving people. My point: why is it so important to build in that exact place which would be insensitive to those who have lost love ones? Of course they have the right to build anywhere on private land as they choose…the question has to do with: sensitivity.

My bad, why then do you think it is insensitive to those who lost loved ones?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Namely, because Japanese did not station troops in “the land of the two Holy Mosques”.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

But I would also point out the alarmingly low amount of Shinto and Buddhist acts of terrorism against the US, given our much longer and larger military presenses in Japan and South Korea.

Last time I checked, having non-Muslims barred from Islamic holy sites is a belief pretty exclusive to Islam.

I would say that is likely due to Japan and Korea’s relative prosperity. That is to say, the Japanese and Koreans cannot blame the US for poverty, lack of self government, etc. Would you say that you think Muslims are inherently more violent people?

 

[JulieAA]

My bad, why then do you think it is insensitive to those who lost loved ones?

Well, for starters, that is exactly what the victims families (in great numbers) have said themselves. I guess if you have not lost anyone in this manner (God forbid) you most likely could not relate to this.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Well, for starters, that is exactly what the victims families (in great numbers) have said themselves. I guess if you have not lost anyone in this manner (God forbid) you most likely could not relate to this.

I see, I was unclear in my wording. Why do the families feel it is insensitive?

 

[scipio337]

But that sounds like a reason FOR construction. It is vital that people realize the twisted ideology in the attacks is completely separate from the Islam practised by the majority of Muslim-Americans. If people are not told this (and the educational process may be uncomfortable) they might have unfair–or even discriminatory–views about Muslim-Americans.

In your mind, it might. In others, it isn’t a reason FOR construction at this particular site, especially in the name of building a better understanding between faiths.

To me, a much more noble gesture than “Hey, screw you guys opposed to this community center, you’re just racists and bigots, and well build it wherever we like” would be the “We understand the the real questions and issues surrounding the proposed community center. Let’s see how we can work this out”. Even if that means a building at a different site.

 

[JulieAA]

I see, I was unclear in my wording. Why do the families feel it is insensitive?

I guess “sensitivity” is not a term you can understand through words…only through your heart will it make sense to you. I do say this with all due respect.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Aren’t you assuming that they think the way you do?

I’m not assuming anything. They are protesting you know.

And if they do think that, doesn’t it mean that they also think all Muslims are responsible for the 9/11 attacks? If they think that, I have to say that they’re wrong.

I can’t read their minds.

However, 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks.

 

[tjm190]

However, 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks.

“What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Jew does is thrown back at all Jews”- Anne Frank

A slightly modified version of the quote applies here.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

“We understand the the real questions and issues surrounding the proposed community center. Let’s see how we can work this out”. Even if that means a building at a different site.

I am trying to understand the real questions and issues, but no one is telling me what they are.

 

[scipio337]

I would say that is likely due to Japan and Korea’s relative prosperity. That is to say, the Japanese and Koreans cannot blame the US for poverty, lack of self government, etc.

I hope you are not implying that Muslims have a legitimate cause in blaming the US for those issues.

TheTrueCentrist:

Would you say that you think Muslims are inherently more violent people?

No, but I would say Islam is more prone to violent interpretation than the majority religions in Japan. In an interesting parallel, Japan had a militaristic society for centuries, but it was culturally, not religiously based.

 

[estesbob]

Suffering a tragedy does not make one right in opposing a group merely because you feel they are responsible for that tragedy. Full stop.

If you opposed a Catholic church near the site because you felt Catholics were responsible, you had better believe that people would ask you “why do you think Catholics were responsible.” There are precious few, however, willing to ask “why do you think the Muslims at the Islamic center are in any way tied to the terrorists?”

Nobody is opposing a group. People are opposing building a mosque at this location. The fact that nobody has an objection to building this mosque elsewhere disproves the fact that this is based on any animosity towards Muslims.

I personally believe the Carmelites had every right to build a convent across from Auschwitz. I also, however, agree with John Paul II that it was not a good idea to do so. Once he found out that the Jews were upset with it he blocked it. He didn’t ask the Jews why they were upset about it or make arguments about how they’re overreacting and that they shouldn’t be upset about it all. He recognized it become a point of controversy and out of goodwill he stopped it. . It appears that the developers of this mosque have reached the same conclusion. If they really want to foster understanding and tolerance they will move the mosque out of respect for the feelings of those who lost loved ones in the twin Towers. Whether you think that these feelings are valid is totally irrelevant.

 

[scipio337]

Nobody is opposing a group. People are opposing building a mosque at this location. The fact that nobody has an objection to building this mosque elsewhere disproves the fact that this is based on any animosity towards Muslims.

I personally believe the Carmelites had every right to build a convent across from Auschwitz. I also, however, agree with John Paul II that it was not a good idea to do so. Once he found out that the Jews were upset with it he blocked it. He didn’t ask the Jews why they were upset about it or make arguments about how they’re overreacting and that they shouldn’t be upset about it all. He recognized it become a point of controversy and out of goodwill he stopped it. . It appears that the developers of this mosque have reached the same conclusion. If they really want to foster understanding and tolerance they will move the mosque out of respect for the feelings of those who lost loved ones in the twin Towers. Whether you think that these feelings are valid is totally irrelevant.

Ding, ding!

 

[estesbob]

I am trying to understand the real questions and issues, but no one is telling me what they are.

You have been told repeatedly. Hour response has been that their feelings were not valid and they needed to get over it

 

[tjm190]

I hope you are not implying that Muslims have a legitimate cause in blaming the US for those issues.

We (we meaning the West, although not so much the US until later) had a part to play in bringing the Middle East to its current state- of course, most of our involvement was during the Cold War Era in response to soviet activity in the area. So it’s not as if the situation would be much improved had the US done nothing.

Similarly, the Europeans could only get their colonial foot in the door in the 1800’s because the Mughals, Ottomans, and Saffavid’s were in a state of steady decline and had massively unpopular governments.