Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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TheTrueCentrist said:
Were you not suggesting earlier that you yourself are a survivor? Your above statement is then circular, it amounts to “it is offensive because I say so.”
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Yes I am. It was in reply to a poster who stated that people affected by 9/11 need to “get over it”.

Do you share his opinion?
TheTrueCentrist said:
You are within your rights to feel however you want, but why do you feel justified in inconveniencing Muslims just because you feel like it.
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How are Muslims being inconvenienced?
 
JulieAA said:
I guess I am not the brightest bulb on the block, so maybe you can clarify something for me. Why is it so important to build this mosque in this particular place when the muslim community know first hand how hurtful this is to the 911 families?
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This is an excellent point, and one that I have been asking myself since this whole controversy exploded. WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT TO BUILD THERE??? From what I understand, there are Mosques all over the place in that area. So what is the logical reason? Lots of questions…still no answers.
 
iamrefreshed said:
Yes I am. It was in reply to a poster who stated that people affected by 9/11 need to “get over it”.

Do you share his opinion?

How are Muslims being inconvenienced?
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One of my favourite quotes is: “Too often we… enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK. I certainly will not be so callous as to tell you to “get over it,” but if you are going to use your status as a survivor to push for one point of view, I treat you with respect when I hold you to the same intellectual standards as everyone else.

We have gotten away from the main topic a little, I believe. You are advocating that the Muslims change plans and move to who knows where. That is an inconvenience. In more general terms, however, interfering with the plans of a religious group “because I feel like it” is a dangerous path.
 
Teelynn said:
This is an excellent point, and one that I have been asking myself since this whole controversy exploded. WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT TO BUILD THERE??? From what I understand, there are Mosques all over the place in that area. So what is the logical reason? Lots of questions…still no answers.
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To copy your style:
WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT THEM NOT TO BUILD THERE???

Its going to be primarily a community centre, only a small part will be a mosque, presumably because there are other mosques in the area.
 
Teelynn said:
This is an excellent point, and one that I have been asking myself since this whole controversy exploded. WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT TO BUILD THERE??? From what I understand, there are Mosques all over the place in that area. So what is the logical reason? Lots of questions…still no answers.
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The only reason they gave was to foster understanding and tolerance Obviously building the mosque here has had the exact opposite of the desired effect. . I believe it is because of this that the developers are considering moving it to him less controversial location. Since no one is opposing them building it elsewhere the idea that opposition to this mosque is fom making the charge. As is normal for these kinds of discussions they prefer to frame the dispute as the enlightened versus the bigots.
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
One of my favourite quotes is: “Too often we… enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” JFK. I certainly will not be so callous as to tell you to “get over it,” but if you are going to use your status as a survivor to push for one point of view, I treat you with respect when I hold you to the same intellectual standards as everyone else.
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I never used my ‘status’ (I’m unsure what you mean by that) to push a point of view. I simply stated that “getting over it” was not something that poster had a right to dictate.
TheTrueCentrist said:
We have gotten away from the main topic a little, I believe. You are advocating that the Muslims change plans and move to who knows where. That is an inconvenience. In more general terms, however, interfering with the plans of a religious group “because I feel like it” is a dangerous path.
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I am advocating that the Muslims consider the feelings of families who lost loved ones on 9/11. Maybe even meet with them? They do want to build a bridge, no?
 
Knowing that most people view the construction of this mosque so close to ground zero as being “insensitive” to the families of the 911 victims, do you have any idea which construction firm would be willing to take on this task? Maybe TheCentrist knows this answer?
 
estesbob said:
The only reason they gave was to foster understanding and tolerance Obviously building the mosque here has had the exact opposite of the desired effect. . I believe it is because of this that the developers are considering moving it to him less controversial location. Since no one is opposing them building it elsewhere the idea that opposition to this mosque is fom making the charge. As is normal for these kinds of discussions they prefer to frame the dispute as the enlightened versus the bigots.
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So you’ve just covered 7a, lets refer to my summary for my next response… Ah yes, why is it insensitive (or intolerant or detrimental to understanding)?
TheTrueCentrist said:
  1. Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
  2. Support group: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive?
  3. Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
  4. Support group: But those involved with the Islamic centre, along with the majority of other Muslims, have denounced the terrorists’ interpretation of Islam. Therefore equating the two groups because of religion is not reasonable.
  5. Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
  6. Support group: No, but we have no reason to be suspicious. Why do you suspect the Muslims involved with the Islamic centre are lying about their beliefs and intentions?
  7. Opposition group:
    a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
    b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.
    c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
    d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
  8. Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)
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JulieAA said:
Knowing that most people view the construction of this mosque so close to ground zero as being “insensitive” to the families of the 911 victims, do you have any idea which construction firm would be willing to take on this task? Maybe TheCentrist knows this answer?
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That is the Muslims problem, not ours. I am sure they can find someone.
 
JulieAA said:
Knowing that most people view the construction of this mosque so close to ground zero as being “insensitive” to the families of the 911 victims, do you have any idea which construction firm would be willing to take on this task? Maybe TheCentrist knows this answer?
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There has been speculation of the be very hard for them to find any union workers to work on the site.
 
iamrefreshed said:
I am advocating that the Muslims consider the feelings of families who lost loved ones on 9/11. Maybe even meet with them? They do want to build a bridge, no?
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They would probably love to have you visit them in their new Islamic centre.

They probably did consider the feelings of the families, as did I. But evidently we are both missing something because we concluded it was not insensitive. Can you tell me where we went wrong?
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
To copy your style:
WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT THEM NOT TO BUILD THERE???

Its going to be primarily a community centre, only a small part will be a mosque, presumably because there are other mosques in the area.
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IF …This Imam and his group were to be a little more transparent, he could (given he was truthful and up front with his info) put this controversy to rest, or at least take some of the fuel out of the fire. But he chooses to fan the flames. The ball is in his court…and he does nothing. He will not even meet with officials. They have stated he has refused a discussion with officials.

As to YOUR QUESTION…I think it has been sufficiently answered numerous times in this thread. The answer is beyond redundant.
 
I think that not jsut the mosque builders, but Obama now too, bit off jsut a little more than they could chew.
Americans sent a clear message that Ground Zero must be respected on their terms. No amount of the usual browbeating, or labeling people as bigots is going to make this issue go away:thumbsup:
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
They would probably love to have you visit them in their new Islamic centre.

They probably did consider the feelings of the families, as did I. But evidently we are both missing something because we concluded it was not insensitive. Can you tell me where we went wrong?
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Already did.

I’m sure the Westboro folks determined they were not insensitive to the families of dead soldiers. Why can’t you just understand their point of view?🤷
 
Teelynn said:
This is an excellent point, and one that I have been asking myself since this whole controversy exploded. WHY ON EARTH DO THEY WANT TO BUILD THERE??? From what I understand, there are Mosques all over the place in that area. So what is the logical reason? Lots of questions…still no answers.
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I wouldn’t say there are mosques all over the place here. At least I don’t know of any from personal experience. I read in a NY Times article that there are two downtown, one of which will expand into the Cordoba House project (if it happens). They’ve both been here for years.
 
tomarin said:
I wouldn’t say there are mosques all over the place here. At least I don’t know of any from personal experience. I read in a NY Times article that there are two downtown, one of which will expand into the Cordoba House project (if it happens). They’ve both been here for years.
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They do need to come out with more information. It would behoove this Imam to offer some facts about the project that Americans could feel grounded about. We will see how this plays out. Again…common sense is what is called for, but is sorely lacking.
 
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