Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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TheTrueCentrist said:
Here is a list of other establishments near the “hallowed” ground.
aolnews.com/nation/article/ground-zero-mosque-name-belies-distance-from-world-trade-center-site-other-local-realities/19590651

Would you say that strip clubs and gambling establishments are more or less acceptable than a mosque on this site?
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The question is,

If we were being attacked by a radical fringe of strippers, would we be having this discussion?

Would you be fighting for strippers rights to build a strip club, regardless of the fact that there are strippers out there who would love to get another chance at blowing a NYC building up?
 
bbarrick8383 said:
The question is,

If we were being attacked by a radical fringe of strippers, would we be having this discussion?

Would you be fighting for strippers rights to build a strip club, regardless of the fact that there are strippers out there who would love to get another chance at blowing a NYC building up?
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So what you are saying is that the reason for your opposition to the Islamic center is not that the ground is “hallowed.” If it was, then any such dubious establishments would be an affront to the memory of those who died. Instead you are saying that you object to the center because it is Muslim and you believe that the Muslims want to attack America.

Do you realize how offensive that would be to a non-radical Muslim?
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
So what you are saying is that the reason for your opposition to the Islamic center is not that the ground is “hallowed.” If it was, then any such dubious establishments would be an affront to the memory of those who died. Instead you are saying that you object to the center because it is Muslim and you believe that the Muslims want to attack America.

Do you realize how offensive that would be to a non-radical Muslim?
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A little bit of both.

But until I’m convinced that it is a non-radical muslim building this mosque and paying for it I’ll continue to oppose it.

Were the strip clubs already there, undamaged by the planes on 9/11? Then they have the right to stay there. But if I was a city official I think I would show a little more respect to the area and the people who lost their lives there.

Building a mosque is not a sign of respect.
 
PatrickSebast said:
I’m glad he did it, and it makes me think better of him. It is easy to stand up for politically popular opinions, but when you are already be called a “secret muslim” and the majority of the country opposes the mosque standing up for basic American principles or religious freedom and rights regarding privately owned property isn’t so easy. Even if you don’t like the man or what he is supporting you have to give him credit for sticking to his principles.
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Making oneself blind, or totally ignoring, public criticism and outrage is not cause for admiration. Its controversy for controversy’s sake. Do you ‘give credit’ to Eminem for coming out with yet another idiotic, low-life album just when the entire world is calling him a low-life idiot? Didn’t think so.

Also, just FYI, our President doesn’t have any principles. He demonstrated this for all the world to see when he immediately abandoned his promise regarding campaign finance–remember that? His reasoning, of course, was that he needed that extra boost in order to work his ‘ground-breaking’ wonders–there was simply too much ‘at stake’ to forgo that extra advantage.

Regarding the laughable ‘crypto-Muslim’ incident. There is something to the fact that his father is a foreign national from a radically different culture, and that his youth was spent in foreign countries that are definitely not the ‘usual’ Grand Tour countries where we send our college students to spend their summers or spend a year studying abroad in.

What exactly makes him committed to American culture, and how can we be sure that this commitment is firm enough?

The truth was, the 2008 presidential election marked a watershed moment for the ‘American world’ political layout. With China sitting on more money than we can imagine, and power alignments everywhere shifting rapidly, we needed someone who put America first and foremost–not simply as an equal player at a global round table.

Obama wasn’t that candidate, and the only way this fact can be conveyed to most dumbass Americans was to tell you that he is ‘secretly Muslim’.

Finally, and this might surprise most of you, but there is a sizable portion of America who simply can’t be distracted from their busy jobs at Jack-in-the-Box long enough to give a **** about the Ground Zero Mosque. And then there’s another herd who actually delight in making empty statements about how the Ground Zero Mosque is actually in line with America’s tradition of religious freedom.

In any case, make no mistake: if you can’t be bothered to actually study Islamic jurisprudence and understand that the heart and soul of Islam is expansion and impressing their beliefs on others (i.e., you, yes–you!), just know that any given cleric or qadi holds opinions so barbaric and radical as to make Torquemada look like some rosy-cheeked angel.
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
There is a mosque on the hallowed ground of the pentagon:

salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/05/muslims_infiltrate_pentagon
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That is shameless equivocation.

The question is, ‘Should the mosque–a symbol of Islam–be built near the ruins of an American landmark, that was destroyed because a handful of Muslims attacked an American symbol, so as to imply Islam’s victory over America and America’s way of life’.

This, by the way, leaves out the likelihood that this building is being bankrolled by people and entities that either tacitly condoned the September 11th attack or even supported it. Nevermind the shameless insensitivity demonstrated by these individuals, however ‘moderate’.

So, please, explain how the Pentagon enters into it.

Moreover, the Pentagon attack was less deadly, and the image left in the American mind of the September 11th attack was concerned chiefly with ‘ground zero’.

And while you’re at it, please tell us how ‘strip clubs’ and ‘casinos’ enter into this argument? If anything, these were the things that irked the Muslim fundamentalists more than anything…
 
TheTrueCentrist said:
So what you are saying is that the reason for your opposition to the Islamic center is not that the ground is “hallowed.” If it was, then any such dubious establishments would be an affront to the memory of those who died. Instead you are saying that you object to the center because it is Muslim and you believe that the Muslims want to attack America.

Do you realize how offensive that would be to a non-radical Muslim?
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Please take the time to understand Islam, before you beg us understand and tread lightly in order to avoid offending ‘non-radical Muslims’.

The phrase itself is so strained, and idiotic, it almost makes me want to laugh. A Muslim is… what do we try to call them these days?.. Hm… oh yes!: ‘moderate’ insofar as he cleaves away from the actual doctrine of Islam. That is: a Muslim is ‘moderate’ or ‘non-radical’ in proportion with how un-Muslim he is.

Islam conceives of itself–from the very first–as a ‘tribe’, or now we would say ‘community of believers’. All of the attributes of this religion center around how tribes were run in 7th Bedouin Arabia. This conveniently makes violence against and forfeiting the property of people who do not belong to this tribes–i.e., infidels–sanctioned.
 
May I say, respectfully, that this whole thread is a bit of a joke. The fact that there are no less than nine pages of “dialoguing” among mostly non-Muslims about the appropriateness of a mosque two blocks from ground zero show how ineffective our current culture is in dealing with this issue.

Secular America is no match for Islam. The US is too busy tripping over its own politically-correct shoelaces, too worried about "offending’ someone, and too confused about what the meaning of freedom is to mount any kind of reasonable response to this insulting and provokative action. America has lost too much of its true Christian roots to know what kind of threat it faces.

Islam has had BATTLES with Christian nations in the past, and BATTLES with nations of other religious backgrounds, and still has them today. Not battles of words or ideology, mind you, but with swords and cannon, and RPGs, and suicide bombers.

Either twiddle your thumbs in ignorance, or wake up and recognize the basis for any legitimate response - our own Christian faith, and the truth and real freedom in Christ that it is about. To give up the basis of true freedom - Jesus Christ and his Church - is to give up on on a free America itself.
 
Theres a few different points of view to consider.

Ist off its private land and not government land. This presents the biggest problem for government. Especially where religion is concerned.

2nd “if” this had been proposed in the time of our forefathers it wouldn’t have lived to see the end of the day. MInd you, all our forefathers built this country with the moral values of a christian life in mind.

3rd we have Obama constantly seperating himself and our country from its Christian roots. In three seperate speechs he has cleverly gone from “we may have once been a christian nation” to “we are no longer “just” a christian nation” to squarely saying “we don’t consider ourselves a chrsitian nation anymore” These are direct quotes from three seperate speechs from past tp present.

MInd you the fact that this is desecrated land is not forgotten. I heard the radical speechs in NYC. Its very easy to have a heart felt concern for all those involved in this tragedy. Familys and friends of lost loved one’s, and all those who gave their lifes in the search for life. Matter of fact most of us here attempted to go to the city that day by I-95 but were turned away because of the existing chaos, and those trying to leave the city. I remember it all to well.

In any case I think its obvious that this is Obamas way of ingratiating himself with Muslim audiences. And this is also a popular sentiment with left wing anti-religious ideology. In which case I don’t see this as political suicide as the OP and first couple reponse’s would indicate.

Without going into a great deal of how this country was founded and the very beliefs it was built on, its safe to say we are now a far cry from that period. And yes this country was indeed a christian nation that has strayed very far from that very thinking.

Don’t sleep on this guy, he’s much more clever than we credit him with. What we need to do is start thinking ahead. We need to start paying very close attention to all the elections. Well let me me speak for myself. I need to do this and make sure all those around me also do. I don’t believe the country can afford another 2-decades of this chaos.

Is it really any wonder thinking back to the early 60’s that we are in this situation today? We as a society allowed this to happen. We did this to ourselves and need to take full responsibility for the position we find ourselves in. Until we realize our error we can’t correct it. To continue to drift from the very princibles we founded this country on, is to place the country in great jeopardy

To believe a miraculous turn of events are going to happen to correct the wrongs, is foolish thinking. We’ll correct the wrongs with the exact same princlibles we built this counrty on. I see a resurrection of the Christian faith and its far overdue. We’ve tried everything here except the exact proven principles we built the country on. The idea of seperation of church and state was never mean’t to be taken out of context as it has. Its so far out of context now that the result is a Mosque being built on sacred land. If anything that entire area is a historic sight and should be taken by the government as exactly that. The building is war memorial. I large piece of the plane landed on the roof?

This is about equal to building a Honda dealership at Pearl Harbor.

Sorry for the typos

God Bless, GT
 
Lutheranteach said:
I don’t think the man had any choice but to back it. It’s easy for some pundit to rant and rave about it, but when it gets down to it I think it would be kind of scary to say: “No. You can’t build a religious center here because we don’t like your religion.” We can’t pick and choose on such things, or at least shouldn’t in the U.S.
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The position Obama took is the same as the vast majority of those who oppose it. That is to say that it is within the legal rights of those who want it to build it. I think the debate is over should it be built. And most of the US population says no. Keep in mind that many of the people who really understand our enemy, including Michael Yon, think our enemy will consider it a monument to their victory in battle:

Michael Yon Ground Zero Mosque: A significant error

A terrorist pilgrimage site should not be built at ground zero. Speaking as one who spends significant time in Islamic countries, and in war, I know that most good Muslims have other things on their mind, such as the weather for their crops, getting the kids to school, and the ma…ny other challenges of daily life. Most Muslims hate terrorists, and in fact nobody suffers at the hands of Islamic terrorists more than other Muslims. We are on the same side. It is a mistake for all the good people of the world, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and all the rest, to allow this pilgrimage site to be built. We will only feed the beast. Good Muslims should stand firm against this unfolding mistake.
According to Obama’s aids he is in favor of building the Mosque. But he hasn’t come out, exactly, and said that.
 
Is he back-pedaling?

From ABC News Australia

Obama in a muddle over ‘Ground Zero’ mosque
US president Barack Obama has found himself in the middle of a political firestorm over controversial plans to build a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero in New York.
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In separate appearances, Mr Obama appeared to support the plan, then, just as quickly, back away from it.
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<…>
Hours later, from the sandy beaches of the Gulf Coast, he offered this revision.
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“I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there,” he said.
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PatrickSebast said:
I’m glad he did it, and it makes me think better of him. It is easy to stand up for politically popular opinions, but when you are already be called a “secret muslim” and the majority of the country opposes the mosque standing up for basic American principles or religious freedom and rights regarding privately owned property isn’t so easy. Even if you don’t like the man or what he is supporting you have to give him credit for sticking to his principles.
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Just exactly what would those principals be? According to Mr Obama it is all about our laws and religious freedom which is very (name removed by moderator)ortant. What about the humungous Obamacare/ If it goes into efffect Catholic Hospitals will be forced to do Abortions where is the religious freedom he so adamantly defends? The man speaks out of both sides of his mouth and neither one of those sides is good for America.
 
This is an article from Two Muslims about the building of the Mosque, it is really very interesting.’

The Koran commands Muslims to, “Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book” – i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of “fitna”

Read more: ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0wjBZkyP3
 
ChristopherJB5 said:
Making oneself blind, or totally ignoring, public criticism and outrage is not cause for admiration. Its controversy for controversy’s sake. Do you ‘give credit’ to Eminem for coming out with yet another idiotic, low-life album just when the entire world is calling him a low-life idiot? Didn’t think so.
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The Catholic church has had its share of public criticism that it has ignored, for the most part. Why haven’t they allowed women priests? Why haven’t they been quicker to deal with allegations of child abuse? Why don’t they allow condoms? etc etc

The public doesn’t care about Catholicism’s internal rationale for these things, nor do they go out of their way to find out. Similarly, you ignore and are willfully ignorant regarding the attitudes and practices of Islam.
 
ChristopherJB5 said:
The question is, ‘Should the mosque–a symbol of Islam–be built near the ruins of an American landmark, that was destroyed because a handful of Muslims attacked an American symbol, so as to imply Islam’s victory over America and America’s way of life’.

This, by the way, leaves out the likelihood that this building is being bankrolled by people and entities that either tacitly condoned the September 11th attack or even supported it. Nevermind the shameless insensitivity demonstrated by these individuals, however ‘moderate’.
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Please give even one tiny scrap of solid evidence for these claims.
 
timotheos said:
Either twiddle your thumbs in ignorance, or wake up and recognize the basis for any legitimate response - our own Christian faith, and the truth and real freedom in Christ that it is about. To give up the basis of true freedom - Jesus Christ and his Church - is to give up on on a free America itself.
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So you are saying that not only should we oppose the center, but we should discriminate against Muslims everywhere.
 
Stjudeprayforus said:
another interesting take on it.

riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2010/08/why-obama-tripped-the-mosque-trap.html

He thinks he is setting an example, providing us a teachable moment, while at the same time, doing everything he can to convey to Muslims that he is tolerant of them. America is mostly tolerant of Muslims and Islam, but what they want, is some tolerance and respect in return.
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I’m afraid our enemy will just say we are fat, dumb and so afraid of them we are willing to let them build a pilgrimage spot on the site of their greatest triumph in the last 1,000 years. We all need to be open enough to look at this from the viewpoint of enemy propaganda and will it help or hurt the war effort. I tend to side with the idea that it is a bad idea and only gives the enemy more propaganda to use against us. In the eyes of many Muslims in the world this is a war of the strong vs the weak. The US being the strong bully. If they can gain this monument on our soil in the very spot of their victory, it will be priceless to them. They could care less about what our constitution says and our silly ideas about religious freedom. They don’t preach religious freedom now, they won’t all of a sudden think the Koran is wrong and the US constitution is right. You need to look at this from the eyes of the typical people who are tempted to align themselves with al-Qaeda and fundamentalist Islam.

The people we are fighting aren’t constitutional scholars, in fact they hate the constitution and are fighting against it. They see it as a weakness of ours. They will simply laugh in our face while dining on the 15th story of this building.
 
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