Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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Wouldn’t you expect the majority of Muslims to support terror if terror was at its core?
Wouldn’t you expect the majority of Catholics to be unequivocally pro-life and anti-gay marriage, if respect for life and patriarchy was at its core? Yes. Funny you should notice that.

Sometimes people simply ignore or discard the parts of the religion that do not appeal to them. How many Catholics are using artificial birth control? Is that because Catholicism doesn’t forbid birth control? No, it’s because most of them don’t care that it does.
 
Many if not all of them are known to have frequented strip clubs, consumed alcohol, and slept with prostitutes.
So do some Iranian clerics. Just because they have sinned, does not mean they are not orthodox. I am orthodox Catholic, but that doesn’t mean that I haven’t betrayed my faith in the past. The faith is what we are discussing, not whether someone adheres perfectly to it, and is free from all sin.

Prostitution is a tricky subject in Islam, because of temporary marriages. Those get out of hand, just as Catholic annulments have been getting out of hand lately.
 
I don’t dislike Muslims. Like a good Catholic, I hate the sin, not the sinner. Islam as a system–and this is the crux of my argument–is a warren of all the worst sins in human history. Argue against that.
Good! I was worried that you mistrusted those involved with the construction because they were Muslims! Just to be clear, why is it that you think the reason for the Mosque’s construction is all of the offensive, hard-line, traditional stuff you posted, instead of the groups stated goals: park51.org/mission.htm
 
… If the Imam’s intentions were benevolent, altruistic and pure, he’d say something along the lines of, “Hey, guys. I didn’t realize how this would be so controversial, offensive and insulting.That wasn’t my intentions. You are right. I’ll build elsewhere.”. If he were to do something like that, I’d have a hell of a lot more respect for him, and have a more positive view of Islam.

But, no. He is driving this thing through, regardless of the consent of the citizenry. That tells me a different story about his true intentions.
Good point. Americans are not saying don’t build mosques. Most of us are saying just don’t build it right there.

There are plenty of non-offensive places you can build a mosque in the United States of America. For that matter, there are many non-offensive places in New York you could build a mosque.
 
**You’re just a bunch of bigoted hate mongers! **-- Wishing you peace.

As a German, I can assure you that it can be perfectly moral to oppose the take-over of your country by destructive forces. Now it is the Muslims, once it was the Nazis, the communists, the facists, the segregationists, the slavers…

Just because it is a religion does not mean that it cannot be a destructive force. There were moderate Nazis too, you know. I know some of them personally, as they are my relatives. There are moderate communists. There are moderate white supremicists. There are moderate, pro-choice, fornicating Christians.

The fact that a group contains moderates does not negate the fact that the group’s core ideology is destructive to those around it. It just means it has hangers-on who don’t really mean it.
Talk about hitting nail on the head. Thank you.
 
I don’t have a nice website to counter all of your quotes for me but-
KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Is not a call to kill anyone.
Is not a call to kill anyone/Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Carefully excludes 2:190 “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.”
and 2:192 “But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

So… don’t start a fight, and when the aggressor asks for peace then oblige him, but in the mean time fight back. Sccccccarrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy:eek:
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
The first quote is only one half of 2:193- “3 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.”
Same for 8:39 " And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do."
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
Because early the early Muslims didn’t have much choice- fighting was a part of life.
… martyrs… Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
… I do not feel the need to respond to 3 words picked out of as many ayats. Furthermore, don’t Christians also believe martyrdom is a holy thing? Our first martyr is a saint!
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
Swap out “God” for Allah and see if you are still offended- that is, is the idea that those who die in the name of God are saved a bad one?
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
See above.
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
See. Above.
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
A Christian notion again.
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
I’ll let you look up 4:88 (hint- it says something about allowing your enemy to live in peace when war is over- unless…)

Alrightie, that’s enough Quran reading for one day I think.
 
So do some Iranian clerics. Just because they have sinned, does not mean they are not orthodox. I am orthodox Catholic, but that doesn’t mean that I haven’t betrayed my faith in the past. The faith is what we are discussing, not whether someone adheres perfectly to it, and is free from all sin.

Prostitution is a tricky subject in Islam, because of temporary marriages. Those get out of hand, just as Catholic annulments have been getting out of hand lately.
So how do you define an orthodox Muslim in such a way that someone can go out of their way to violate the morality set forth by Islam in their last days on Earth and still be an Orthodox Muslim?
 
Ok…This is America. In America people can worship whatever they want. They can build centers of worship wherever they want as long as it’s within local laws (ie. proper zoning, building is to code, etc). It’s private property. It’s guaranteed by the constitution. We don’t get to just arbitrarily reject a place of worship because you don’t like the religion.

This is the land of the free. Not the land of free white christians and the hell with everyone else.
 
Gee, I don’t know.

But, read the following and tell us what you think.

Someone went to the trouble of collecting the appropriate passages from the Koran about the killing of infidels. And here they are:

wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Here is an excerpt … a SMALL fraction of the quotes from the Koran: click on the link above for a LOT more.
Hmmm Ok From USCCB -NAB Website:

Deuteronomy 13:5-11
5 The LORD, your God, shall you follow, and him shall you fear; his commandment shall you observe, and his voice shall you heed, serving him and holding fast to him alone.
6 But that prophet or that dreamer shall be put to death, because, in order to lead you astray from the way which the LORD, your God, has directed you to take, he has preached apostasy from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and ransomed you from that place of slavery. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
7 "If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known,
8 gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other:
9 do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him,
10 but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.
11 You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.

1 Samuel 15: 1-3
1Samuel said to Saul: “It was I the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now, therefore, listen to the message of the LORD.
2 This is what the LORD of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.
3 1 Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’”

Numbers 31: 16-18
16 Why, they are the very ones who on Balaam’s advice prompted the unfaithfulness of the Israelites toward the LORD in the Peor affair, which began the slaughter of the LORD’S community.
17 3 Slay, therefore, every male child and every woman who has had intercourse with a man.
18 But you may spare and keep for yourselves all girls who had no intercourse with a man.

II Chronicles 14: 12-14
12Asa and those with him pursued them as far as Gerar, and the Ethiopians fell until there were no survivors, for they were crushed before the LORD and his army, which carried away enormous spoils.
13 Then the Judahites conquered all the cities around Gerar, for the fear of the LORD was upon them; they despoiled all the cities, for there was much booty in them.
14 They attacked also the tents of the cattle-herders and carried off a great number of sheep and camels. Then they returned to Jerusalem.

1 Samuel 6:18-19
18 The golden mice, however, corresponded to the number of all the cities of the Philistines belonging to the five lords, including fortified cities and open villages. The large stone on which the ark of the LORD was placed is still in the field of Joshua the Beth-shemite at the present time.
19 The descendants of Jeconiah did not join in the celebration with the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh when they greeted the ark of the LORD, and seventy of them were struck down

Deuteronomy 2: 31-37
31 "Then the LORD said to me, ‘Now that I have already begun to hand over to you Sihon and his land, begin the actual occupation.’
32 So Sihon and all his people advanced against us to join battle at Jahaz;
33 but since the LORD, our God, had delivered him to us, we defeated him and his sons and all his people.
34 2 At that time we seized all his cities and doomed them all, with their men, women and children; we left no survivor.
35 Our only booty was the livestock and the loot of the captured cities.
36 From Aroer on the edge of the Wadi Arnon and from the city in the wadi itself, as far as Gilead, no city was too well fortified for us to whom the LORD had delivered them up.
37 However, in obedience to the command of the LORD, our God, you did not encroach upon any of the Ammonite land, neither the region bordering on the Wadi Jabbok, nor the cities of the highla

Ezekiel 9:5-11

5To the others I heard him say: Pass through the city after him and strike! Do not look on them with pity nor show any mercy!
6 Old men, youths and maidens, women and children–wipe them out! But do not touch any marked with the X; begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the men (the elders) who were in front of the temple.
7 Defile the temple, he said to them, and fill the courts with the slain; then go out and strike in the city.
8 As they began to strike, I was left alone. I fell prone, crying out, Alas, Lord GOD! Will you destroy all that is left of Israel when you pour out your fury on Jerusalem?"
9 He answered me: The sins of the house of Israel are great beyond measure; the land is filled with bloodshed, the city with lawlessness. They think that the LORD has forsaken the land, that he does not see them.
10 I, however, will not look upon them with pity, nor show any mercy. I will bring down their conduct upon their heads.
11 Then I saw the man dressed in linen with the writing case at his waist make his report: “I have done as you ordered.”
 
Here’s what I think …

From a variety of different surveys, we know that a large majority of Americans and New Yorkers are against the building of the Mosque on that particular site. Count me in with that group. There are several different lines of inquiry, all pointing to a majority in opposition to the Mosque. If the Imam’s intentions were benevolent, altruistic and pure, he’d say something along the lines of, “Hey, guys. I didn’t realize how this would be so controversial, offensive and insulting.That wasn’t my intentions. You are right. I’ll build elsewhere.”. If he were to do something like that, I’d have a hell of a lot more respect for him, and have a more positive view of Islam.

But, no. He is driving this thing through, regardless of the consent of the citizenry. That tells me a different story about his true intentions.
Lets try this substitution game:

From a variety of different surveys, we know that a large majority of Americans and New Yorkers are against blacks sitting in the front of a bus. Count me in with that group. There are several different lines of inquiry, all pointing to a majority in opposition to blacks sitting in the front of a bus. If the black’s intentions were benevolent, altruistic and pure, he’d say something along the lines of, “Hey, guys. I didn’t realize how this would be so controversial, offensive and insulting.That wasn’t my intentions. You are right. I’ll sit elsewhere.”. If he were to do something like that, I’d have a hell of a lot more respect for him, and have a more positive view of black people.

But, no. He is driving this thing through, regardless of the consent of the citizenry. That tells me a different story about his true intentions.
 
Good point. Americans are not saying don’t build mosques. Most of us are saying just don’t build it right there.

There are plenty of non-offensive places you can build a mosque in the United States of America. For that matter, there are many non-offensive places in New York you could build a mosque.
And yet… they are being opposed from coast to coast. So not sure where those ‘most’ Americans who wouldn’t oppose it elsewhere are? Maybe it is a ‘not in my backyard’ thing?

If they are not free to practice their religion neither am I, or you. We are all free, or none of us are.
 
Yes, Obama made this speech at a Ramadan Iftar dinner. I was curious about this as well and searched on ‘white house iftar dinner’. Obama is not the first American President to host an Iftar dinner at the White House.

Does Obama back this cultural centre/mosque or not? In his speech, he certainly sounds like he strongly supports the building of this centre but after receiving some flak, he has modified his statement saying he was only talking about their freedom to build there, not the wisdom of such an action.

So what does he really think? What is his position on this? Does he support the building of the centre or not?

If he was not supporting it, why did he even bring it up?
I would hope he is supporting the right to build the mosque is sincere. The President is the President of ALL Americans, even to those that want to build a mosque in a place that is not in a popular location. I think Obama responded appropriately and walked that fine line very well!!
 
No thanks.

This is a serious matter to me.
If it is a serious matter, then you should use serious arguments. As I have shown, the line of reasoning you used can be used to legitimize racism. I seriously suggest you reconsider your rationale.
 
If you were to build a Catholic parish, you would build it near or in an area with a large Catholic community. Right? So you would imagine they would do the same when building a mosque. It’s just common sense.

Here’s the thing, the highest population of Muslims in NYC is in Brooklyn, not lower Manhattan. So for most people, to travel to this mosque they will need to travel across the Brooklyn Bridge and travel a distance and pass many other mosques along the way. It doesn’t seem very convenient.

My main problem is a- the funding, and b- the imam. First off, we don’t know where the funding is coming from. I remember reading an article recently saying that the imam was traveling to the Middle East to help fund the mosque. And secondly, the imam troubles me. He has said, on more than one occasion that the U.S. has a structure that would easily allow sharia law and that it should implement sharia. Not only that, but he also believes that the U.S. should allow religions to self govern their adherents. So there will be a Muslim court, a Jewish court, a Protestant court, and a Catholic court. Does it make sense? It’s on its way to this. A judge in NJ recently claimed that it was lawful for a man to rape his wife if his faith said it was OK ( secularnewsdaily.com/2010/07/28/nj-judge-oks-rape-of-wife-by-muslim-citing-religious-belief-overturned-on-appeal/ ).

And if I remember correctly, when I first started reading on this issue, those who were trying to build it were saying they wanted this mosque to be a place to bring understanding on the Muslim faith and that is why that site is the best place to build it. Now they are saying it has nothing to do with 9/11.

Every way you look at this, it just smells fishy.

They have the right to build it, but I just don’t think it’s wise to do it. At least address the issues of financing and the imam’s controversial statements.
 
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
– Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church.
– Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:546
 
Very interesting Joseph. Except that we are not Jewish. Try again.

TheTrue Centrist,
Also a nice try. Race is not the same thing as a political ideology or religion, which are freely chosen.

This is more comparable to someone donning a KKK outfit and greeting the people exiting a majority-black Southern Baptist church with a burning cross. Does he have a legal right to be there, on public property? Yes. Should he be there? No. Should the black people exiting the church take his action as an affront, or just assume that he just happened to feel the urge to stand on that particular spot? You decide. Are the black people who claim that the KKK is anti-republican, racist, and inherently violent just a bunch of hate-mongers, or might they have some sort of point?

Peacefully protesting Christians get chased away from abortion clinics, and they have passed laws forbidding our praying within a certain distance from the clinic, so that the “patients” won’t be disturbed and annoyed by our presence. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander, eh?
 
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
– Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church.
– Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:546
So what?? What possible bearing doesThomas Jefferson’s incorrect rants about the alleged shortcoming of Christianity have to do with the propriety of building a mosque near Ground Zero?
 
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