Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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Mr_Skeptic said:
Hamas endorses the mosque, and says that they “have to build” it there. nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI

Let’s see…

We have an Imam who blamed America for 9/11 and said that Osama Bin Laden was “made in America”, who is spearheading the Ground Zero Islamic Victory Center, and is aligned with Hamas on this conquest.
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Where have you been? The words of the Imam after 9/11 are almost the same as the words in the official Report on 9/11 and they are the words used by Glenn Beck with his blackboard, spelling out the very same words. Why did George Bush rely on this Imam? why has the state dept and the Pentagon counted on him for consultation? Muslims are already praying regularly near ground zero in that old delapidated bldg. Should they not be permitted to turn it into a suitable prayer place plus activity center? And who would pay them their $4.5million if they are denied legal use of it?

The bldg those Carmelite nuns wanted to turn into a convent had been the bldg where the Nazis made the poisonous gas they used in the death camp. That’s why it was not suitable. There is a Catholic church 600 metres from the camp yet many Catholics participated in the genocide. Somehow people are living with such a religion so close. Besides how can anyone equate Nazis with Islam? 99% of Muslims are peace loving people. Many of our foreign born doctors are Muslim (since the US does not produce enough physicians for its populace we rely on foreigners)…do you question his/her religion when you are treated by a doctor from Syria (our local heart specialist), Pakistan, (my primary care physician), India, or Muslims from other countries???
 
I wonder what people would have thought if Americans wanted to build a monument to Pres. Harry Truman in Heroshima?
 
judyroberts said:
I wonder what people would have thought if Americans wanted to build a monument to Pres. Harry Truman in Heroshima?
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That analogy is deficient. Truman expressly authorized the bombing. This Islamic center expressly condemned the terrorist attacks.
 
Below is an interesting letter from our local paper this morning. Many seem to see this issue as a freedom of religion issue. I find that ironic, considering the true lack of freedom many live with in Islamic countries. Anyway, here is the letter:

"Supporting freedom

Regarding “Obama speaks out for mosque plan in NYC” (Aug. 14): I agree with President Barack Obama that we must take the high road and set an example of freedom of religion in regard to the building of an Islamic center near ground zero.

But I would feel much better about it if there was a strong vocal and continuing commitment by Muslims to support freedom of religion in Islamic countries as well. In addition, it would be a great opportunity for the members of this mosque and other Islamic groups to denounce strongly the following barbaric practices perpetrated by fundamentalist Islamic groups especially by, but not limited to, the Taliban and al-Qaida.:

• Executing Muslims for wanting to convert to another religion.

• Stoning of women and men for adultery. In most cases, it is only the woman who is punished. Also women who have been raped have been condemned to death while the rapist is not punished.

• Killing people who have criticized Islamic practices.

• Funding of al-Qaida and other terrorists organizations by citizens of Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries. They should be condemned by all freedom-loving people, including Muslims. Supporting terrorism brings dishonor to any religion.

• Denying human rights to women and girls in Islamic countries."

Source (4th letter down, I think): stltoday.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_457b6209-404a-5b7c-b16b-2910f8e3f567.html
 
This may be worthy of its own thread, but an increasing number of New York construction workers are vowing that they will not work on a Park 51 mosque/Muslim community center.
The proposed Islamic center near ground zero is facing stiff opposition from a group that will be vital if the plan is to be realized: the New York City building industry.
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Construction worker Andy Sullivan has set up a “Hard Hat Pledge” on his website, calling on construction workers to vow not to do work on the Park51 community center and mosque, the New York Daily News said.
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More here: aolnews.com/nation/article/construction-workers-voice-opposition-to-ground-zero-mosque/19602461

DaveBj
 
We could have approached or handled this mosque issue better like the Russian. Somebody deleted my Russian mosque comments from couple days ago. I don’t feel like typing it again. Anyway, here’s another one from Mother Bear.

Friday, July 23, 2010
Code: 
                 ** [Window on Eurasia: ‘Unwritten’ Directive from Moscow Blocking Construction of New Mosques in Russia, Moscow Imam Says](http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2010/07/window-on-eurasia-unwritten-directive.html) **
Paul Goble

Staunton, July 22 – Even if Moscow gives public approval for a new mosque, local officials follow “an unwritten directive” not to permit the construction of any new mosques in the Russian Federation, according to Shamil Alyautdinov, the imam of the Russian capital’s Memorial Mosque.
In comments on an Ekho Moskvy program on “Islamic Identity and Religious Radicalism, Alyautdinov said that this “unwritten directive” means that “even in certain North Caucasus republics, churches are being built today but not mosques,” a pattern that is radicalizing some Muslims (www.islamnews.ru/news-25550.html).
Indeed, the Moscow imam said, in one of the republics there where 60 percent of the population is Muslims, “there are more churches than mosque.” Moreover, there and elsewhere, Alyautdinov continued, Moscow approves the reconstruction of churches but “not on one mosque is there a sign indicating ‘repair’ or ‘construction.’”
But even in the Russian capital, Muslims have not been able to secure approval from local and regional officials to build new mosques, even when senior federal officials say that they have no objection, statements that many assume are both accurate and determinative but in fact turn out to be neither.
“In Moscow,” Alyautdinov said, “there are a total of four mosques,” while in Beijing, China, there are 70. When his interviewer objected that in Russia there are “more than 6,000 mosques, the Moscow imam responded that in China there are 30,000, even though the number of practicing Muslims in China is roughly the same as their number in Russia – 20 million.
The lack of mosques in Russia, he continued, means that a large share of Muslims there don’t know much about their faith or feel that they are from some other planet. As a result, they all too often lack the internal knowledge and resources to resist the appeals of radicals who tell them what they think Islam is.
Asked directly as to whether there is a radical trend in Russian Islam, Alyautdinov responded that “there is the term, Russian banditism.” And he noted that the way in which people are described depends to an unfortunate degree on their power position: those without power are described in negative terms; once they get power, the descriptions change.
The Moscow imam noted that “Palestinian parties and organizations which the mass media had called terrorists, then came to power, and with them, [the Russian media and the Russian government] began to conduct a conversation on an equal basis” and without such epithets.
Alyautdinov’s comments are important not so much because they are part of a longstanding Muslim effort to build more mosques in the Russian Federation than because they are an indication that Moscow appears to have decided to show more tolerance on this question and allow local officials to take the blame, even if Moscow is the source of the decision.
 
estesbob said:
So much for the idea that building this Mosque was going to foster understanding and tolerance
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What’s more, it looks like the Cordoba Initiative (curiously being more referred as Park51 now) is already backfiring on Islam, if you listen to what Islamic scholars at Al-Azhar, the esteemed academic center of the Muslim world, have to say about it. They are opposed to building a mosque near the events of 9/11, believing it is a conspiracy to confirm a clear connection to Islam, maintaining of course that Islam is innocent of the connection. It is a “Zionist conspiracy,” which many are making use of to harm the religion.

In fact, Dr. Amna Nazir, professor of doctrine and philosophy at Al Azhar, expressed her rejection to the mosque project near the World Trade Center, saying: “Building a mosque on this rubble indicates bad intention — even if we wished to shut our eyes, close our minds, and insist on good will. I hope it is a sincere step, and not a new conspiracy against Islam and Muslims.”

Source

So never mind about the pain to those directly affected by the attack on the twin towers, as this is based on emotion, not on reason, right? I just wonder if supporters of the mosque in this country see beyond the narrow claim that it is a religious freedom issue, discounting altogether the symbolism of the mosque and the power of symbols.

As for how our President is viewed by the author of the linked article, below are snips of what he wrote:

“ … how does one interpret President Barrack Hussein Obama’s recent support for the 9/11 mosque? He certainly spent enough time growing up in the Muslim world to have a better understanding of the Muslim mindset — including its take on religious buildings as symbols of supremacy — than the average American. Far from approving it, then, he of all presidents should appreciate the triumphalist overtones a mega-mosque so near to Ground Zero conveys to Islamists.”

… the potential for the 9/11 mosque project to backfire on Islam continues to grow. At a time when nearly 70 percentof Americans already oppose the mosque plan, continued media attention and 9/11 rallies may well help realize Al Azhar’s worst fears: that the 9/11 mosque will serve as a permanent reminder of “a clear connection between the strikes of September [11] and Islam.”

… should the mosque be built, it will be an Islamist triumph. However, at the rate things are going — this issue is set to be a hot topic for upcoming elections — time may well reveal that the victory of erecting a mega-mosque near Ground Zero was as much symbolic as it was pyrrhic, not just for Islamists, but their political supporters as well.”
Instead of building bridges, the mosque may just do the opposite or result in unintended consequences, a bigger wedge between those who are for and against Islam/Muslims in America, between Muslims and Jews, Muslims and other Muslims, and Muslims and non-Muslims in the world!
 
SwizzleStick said:
Below is an interesting letter from our local paper this morning. Many seem to see this issue as a freedom of religion issue. I find that ironic, considering the true lack of freedom many live with in Islamic countries. Anyway, here is the letter:

"Supporting freedom

Regarding “Obama speaks out for mosque plan in NYC” (Aug. 14): I agree with President Barack Obama that we must take the high road and set an example of freedom of religion in regard to the building of an Islamic center near ground zero.

But I would feel much better about it if there was a strong vocal and continuing commitment by Muslims to support freedom of religion in Islamic countries as well. In addition, it would be a great opportunity for the members of this mosque and other Islamic groups to denounce strongly the following barbaric practices perpetrated by fundamentalist Islamic groups especially by, but not limited to, the Taliban and al-Qaida.:

• Executing Muslims for wanting to convert to another religion.

• Stoning of women and men for adultery. In most cases, it is only the woman who is punished. Also women who have been raped have been condemned to death while the rapist is not punished.

• Killing people who have criticized Islamic practices.

• Funding of al-Qaida and other terrorists organizations by citizens of Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries. They should be condemned by all freedom-loving people, including Muslims. Supporting terrorism brings dishonor to any religion.

• Denying human rights to women and girls in Islamic countries."

Source (4th letter down, I think): stltoday.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_457b6209-404a-5b7c-b16b-2910f8e3f567.html
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We, including more than 7million Muslims, live in the United States of America. What other countries do or don’t do that is despicable we cannot control. We can only control our (speaking for American Muslims too) country. None of the awful things mentioned above that occur in other countries occur in the USA. You want American Muslims to tell Muslims in other countries what they must do, what effect would that have? Almost every country in the world condemned the pope in the 1850s for taking Edgardo Mortata, a supposedly baptized Jewish boy, away from his parents. He stole that child. Catholics throughout the world tried to get him to give the boy back to his parents but such outcry had no effect. It’s not even certain that that domestic even did secretly baptize him. It is very difficult for people in one country to have an effect on people in another. Alas. Gov’ts can attempt to have other gov’ts change, eg Iran, but private citizens cannot be mandated to change people in other countries.

Again, I ask why did President George Bush ask Imam Rauf to represent the US to Muslims around the world? Why is he now sent abroad by the state dept?
 
Grace & Peace!
estesbob said:
So much for the idea that building this Mosque was going to foster understanding and tolerance
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Estesbob, is it now your argument that because we Americans can’t handle the concept of a bunch of Muslims who mean no harm to anyone setting up a community center in one of our cities that it’s their fault we can’t handle the concept of a bunch of Muslims who mean no harm to anyone? That because we have a problem with seeing moderate Islam properly, it’s moderate Islam’s fault that we’re unwilling or unable to see them properly? And when they step up to the plate and say, we’d like you to see us properly, we’re justified in being upset with them for challenging the way we would prefer to see them? It seems like what America actually *needs *are more such centers if the out-pouring of anti-Islamic sentiment around America is any indication of how Americans actually feel. There’s no justifying such sentiment.
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InSearchofGrace:
What’s more, it looks like the Cordoba Initiative (curiously being more referred as Park51 now) is already backfiring on Islam, if you listen to what Islamic scholars at Al-Azhar, the esteemed academic center of the Muslim world, have to say about it. They are opposed to building a mosque near the events of 9/11, believing it is a conspiracy to confirm a clear connection to Islam, maintaining of course that Islam is innocent of the connection. It is a “Zionist conspiracy,” which many are making use of to harm the religion.

In fact, Dr. Amna Nazir, professor of doctrine and philosophy at Al Azhar, expressed her rejection to the mosque project near the World Trade Center, saying: “Building a mosque on this rubble indicates bad intention — even if we wished to shut our eyes, close our minds, and insist on good will. I hope it is a sincere step, and not a new conspiracy against Islam and Muslims.”
Click to expand...
More proof that what’s going on here is all part of the scapegoating/cycle of violence that should be familiar to all of us by now. We’re all choosing our victims. Terrorists, politicians, Zionist conspiracies. Eventually there’ll be an overwhelming consensus as to who is to blame (the consensus is emerging already). Then things’ll start getting desperate.

I think, though, that if you look very carefully, you’ll discover that what’s at the heart of this is the economy. Immigration issues and problems took the brunt of our anger recently, but this issue is gradually assuming most of the load. When this is played out, immigration issues will arise once more (though they may arise in tandem with the community center/anti-Islamic sentiment as they deal with fundamentally similar things, similar fears). At the bottom of it all, we’re looking for someone to sacrifice in order to fix the economy. That’s how we work as humans. That’s what we’ve been doing for millennia. That’s what’s happening here.

The real question is, “How can we stop this cycle of violence?” It’s not up to them to stop it. It’s up to us. How can we diffuse tension, bring peace. How can we break this machinery of fear and bloodlust in which we’re all trapped before it gets going in earnest? How can we show our love for the Muslim community and for those who are anti-Muslim?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Vezelay said:
We, including more than 7million Muslims, live in the United States of America. What other countries do or don’t do that is despicable we cannot control. We can only control our (speaking for American Muslims too) country. None of the awful things mentioned above that occur in other countries occur in the USA. You want American Muslims to tell Muslims in other countries what they must do, what effect would that have? Almost every country in the world condemned the pope in the 1850s for taking Edgardo Mortata, a supposedly baptized Jewish boy, away from his parents. He stole that child. Catholics throughout the world tried to get him to give the boy back to his parents but such outcry had no effect. It’s not even certain that that domestic even did secretly baptize him. It is very difficult for people in one country to have an effect on people in another. Alas. Gov’ts can attempt to have other gov’ts change, eg Iran, but private citizens cannot be mandated to change people in other countries.

Again, I ask why did President George Bush ask Imam Rauf to represent the US to Muslims around the world? Why is he now sent abroad by the state dept?
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I made the point that this isn’t really a freedom of religion issue, though some view it as such. Truth is that Muslims have the freedom to practice their religion in America (though I don’t think it is just a religion to some, they hold views that could threaten American freedoms, i.e. Honor Killings in America forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=482725), but in Islamic countries they have no real choice, which is ironic.

This building the mosque near Ground Zero issue, to me, is more about being right, having the right versus doing what is right.
 
InSearchofGrace said:
What’s more, it looks like the Cordoba Initiative (curiously being more referred as Park51 now) is already backfiring on Islam, if you listen to what Islamic scholars at Al-Azhar, the esteemed academic center of the Muslim world, have to say about it. They are opposed to building a mosque near the events of 9/11, believing it is a conspiracy to confirm a clear connection to Islam, maintaining of course that Islam is innocent of the connection. It is a “Zionist conspiracy,” which many are making use of to harm the religion.
Click to expand...
No, believe it or not Dr Amna, the roots of all evil do not extend to the Jews controlling world history. Muslims are capable of doing such callous things all by themselves.
…As for how our President is viewed by the author of the linked article, below are snips of what he wrote:
Click to expand...
“ … how does one interpret President Barrack Hussein Obama’s recent support for the 9/11 mosque? He certainly spent enough time growing up in the Muslim world to have a better understanding of the Muslim mindset — including its take on religious buildings as symbols of supremacy — than the average American. Far from approving it, then, he of all presidents should appreciate the triumphalist overtones a mega-mosque so near to Ground Zero conveys to Islamists.”
Click to expand...
Maybe he does appreciate the triumphalist tones very much. It is just more of ‘chickens coming home to roost’.
… the potential for the 9/11 mosque project to backfire on Islam continues to grow. At a time when nearly 70 percentof Americans already oppose the mosque plan, continued media attention and 9/11 rallies may well help realize Al Azhar’s worst fears: that the 9/11 mosque will serve as a permanent reminder of “a clear connection between the strikes of September [11] and Islam.”
Click to expand...
Yes it will. May there be 3000 crosses placed around the Cordoba Centre ever September 11 as reminders to that connection.
… should the mosque be built, it will be an Islamist triumph. However, at the rate things are going — this issue is set to be a hot topic for upcoming elections — time may well reveal that the victory of erecting a mega-mosque near Ground Zero was as much symbolic as it was pyrrhic, not just for Islamists, but their political supporters as well.”
Click to expand...
Elections say it the best for sure.
Instead of building bridges, the mosque may just do the opposite or result in unintended consequences, a bigger wedge between those who are for and against Islam/Muslims in America, between Muslims and Jews, Muslims and other Muslims, and Muslims and non-Muslims in the world!
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Given the duplciity of the representatives of this mosque, it is more believable that the intent of the mosque was triumphalist rather than had anything to do with building bridges.
Rima Fakih is one of those Muslimas that are building bridges that actually lead somewhere other than yet another example of Islamic triumphalism. I fully support her statments on the fiasco.
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Ground Zero Thought Experiment
*By *Andy McCarthy*http://global.nationalreview.com/images/icon_e-mail_15x13.jpg*

A friend poses the following: Imagine that there really were these fundamentalist Christian terror cells all over the United States, as the Department of Homeland Security imagines. Let’s say a group of five of these terrorists hijacked a plane, flew it to Mecca, and plowed it into the Kaaba.
**
Now let’s say a group of well-meaning, well-funded Christians — Christians whose full-time job was missionary work — decided that the best way to promote healing would be to pressure the Saudi government to drop its prohibition against permitting non-Muslims into Mecca so that these well-meaning, well-funded Christian missionaries could build a $100 million dollar church and community center a stone’s throw from where the Kaaba used to be — you know, as a bridge-building gesture of interfaith understanding.
**
What do you suppose President Obama, Mayor Bloomberg, the New York Times, and other Ground Zero mosque proponents would say about the insensitive, provocative nature of the proposal?
**
Do you think the State Department would make the leader of the Christian missionaries a special emissary and send him to represent the United States on diplomatic business overseas?
**
What do you suppose the Saudi reaction would be?
**
What do you suppose those ecumenical GZ mosque proponents at Hamas would say?
**
What do you suppose Pope Benedict and other Christian leaders would say?

What do you suppose imam Feisal Rauf and his friends at CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America, the International Institute of Islamic Thought, and the various other Muslim Brotherhood affiliates would say?
 
Where on earth did that Dr Amna Nazir get the idea "building a mosque ON THIS RUBBLE??? This proposed Islamic community center is NOT built on the rubble of anything much less the rubble of the 9/11 attacks.IIt is actually 4-5 blocks away from the footprint of the towers. This building had been vacant for quite some time. Nobody wanted it which is why the price sank to $4.5million, half its original value. It is a godsend for that desolate neighborhood to imagine a handsome 12 story bldg on that site instead of the ugly old factory. Muslims have been praying in that old bldg for more than a year --so much for those who think there are no Muslims around there-- and deserve to be able to make it a more suitable place for prayer and other activities. There is no sign whatsoever of any bad intentions. And who will compensate these Sufis for their $4.5million investment if you crazies succeed in denying them their perfectly legal constitutional right to build there??? This bldg cannot be seen from ground zero and ground zero cannot be seen from this bldg. There are several churches AT ground zero. Why should this particular religion be told they should not build blocks away. Innocent Muslims died in the terrorist attacks. There should not be a place of prayer nearby in which to remember them?
 
Deo_Volente said:
…
The real question is, “How can we stop this cycle of violence?” It’s not up to them to stop it. It’s up to us. How can we diffuse tension, bring peace. How can we break this machinery of fear and bloodlust in which we’re all trapped before it gets going in earnest? How can we show our love for the Muslim community and for those who are anti-Muslim?
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How to show our love for the Muslim and those who are anti-Muslim is a whole different level. Yes, we should bring peace and diffuse the tension. But is it up to the victims to stop the perpetrators from future attacks on them? Don’t you have this the other way around?

I hope you do not consider that the opponents to the mosque who have expressed their views here are anti-Muslim. It would be correct to say opponents to the project are anti-Islam, for it is the religion, or parts of it, that is the root of violent attacks by some, nevertheless dangerous, Muslims.

We as Americans of all other faiths and non-Muslims in other countries would be unable to change these core Islamic beliefs that call for violence. Only the Muslims can institute reforms in the way they apply (or don’t apply) their religious beliefs in a fraternal world. Only Muslims can work for respect for their religion and way of life (sharia) in and out of their homelands. Only Muslims can work towards efforts so Islam can be looked upon like other religions – one that really promotes peace.

The distinction between anti-Muslim and anti-Islam in arguments is often lost, hence the easy claims of bigotry that are thrown about in threads like this one.
 
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