Obama backs mosque near ground zero

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Vezelay said:
And how did John Paul handle the convent move? He had the nuns move out of the Nazi bldg that had been used to store poisonous gas for the death camp and go into a new beautiful bldg just across the road where the nuns insist on keeping the 26 ft cross that had been erected for JP to say Mass. How insensitive of the pope, of the nuns. Most Germans were Christian and most Germans supported Hitler. Many of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were Christian. Hitler was baptized Catholic although, obviously, not practicing. I don’t see any message in JP’s action that relates to today’s question.
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He had the convent moved because if offended Jews even though nobody believed the nuns were trying to cause offense. It is interesting that Archbishop Dolan mentioned this exact situation when he offered to mediate this issue. It does not matter whether you think people should feel offended by the mosque or not-the problem is a large number of people are. It’s at this point that people of good intentions can sit down and work something out that everybody is happy with.
 
tpw said:
I believe it was Pope John Paul II who observed that just because a majority supports a view, doesn’t mean it’s right.

If this were some incindiary, Muslim extremist group with proven ties to Al Quaeda or the Taliban that would be one thing. What we do have is a group of Sufi Muslims of a mystical bent who have proven to be supporters of U.S. law and whose leader, the current imam, has served as an ambassador of sorts to the Middle East during the Bush administration.

Rather than act with intelligence you have a group of political opportunists (Gingrich) and people lacking in any form of credibility (Palin) attacking something they know very little about, yet who are more than happy to stoke the fires of miscontent, bigotry and genuine suffering for their own political ends. How deplorable.

To make matters worse according to the Wall Street Journal this empty debate is playing right into the hands of extremist groups who are using it to stoke further discontent among more extremist Muslims. So how about that - Gingrich, Palin and Bin Ladin are on the same page. Birds of the same feather fly together.
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You know that people are not interested in honest discussion when they start ranting about the usual left-wing bogeyman. Palin ,Gingrich ,Fox news, Wall Street Journal etc. etc. etc… For some reason the left just cannot tolerate dissent from their views- since they know that they are absolutely right about everything the only people who can possibly oppose them are people too stupid to know better that been brainwashed by the right-wing media. God save us from the self-righteous
 
estesbob said:
You know that people are not interested in honest discussion when they start ranting about the usual left-wing bogeyman. Palin ,Gingrich ,Fox news, Wall Street Journal etc. etc. etc… For some reason the left just cannot tolerate dissent from their views- since they know that they are absolutely right about everything the only people who can possibly oppose them are people too stupid to know better that been brainwashed by the right-wing media. God save us from the self-righteous
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You tell me where you think these opponent’s opinions came from:
youtube.com/watch?v=r43aSB46Qdw
 
bbarrick8383 said:
From things like this:

youtube.com/watch?v=8fSvyv0urTE&feature=search

Mr. Horowitz use to be a big time leftie, his parents were communists. Listen to his story as much as you listen to the students response.
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Mr. Horwwitz is for Mr. Horowitz. When he was no longer a BMOC and liberals started to question his self promoting musings, he moved to where he could make a big splash and became a darling of the right. And a darling he is
 
Via_Dolorosa said:
Mr. Horwwitz is for Mr. Horowitz. When he was no longer a BMOC and liberals started to question his self promoting musings, he moved to where he could make a big splash and became a darling of the right. And a darling he is
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Irrelevant to the girls response.
Horowitz was a supporter of Huey P. Newton, and raised money for the Black Panther Party. He has written that he recommended that the Panther Party hire a bookkeeper, Betty Van Patter, who was then working for Horowitz at Ramparts. In December 1974, she was murdered.[10] While her murder is unsolved, Horowitz alleges that the Panthers were responsible for her death, motivated, he states, by the desire to stop Van Patter from revealing the party’s financial corruption. Later, he cited that experience as the catalyst for reassessing his views that took him from the political left to the political right.
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Sounds like there was a little more involved than being the bmoc.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Rauf 2005

nypost.com/p/news/local/newly_released_ground_zero_imam_tUWczuKcOs9ERhZ9PO3fZM
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“What complicates the discussion, intra-Islamically is the fact that the West has not been cognizant and has not addressed the issues of its own contribution to much injustice in the Arab and Muslim world,” Rauf goes on to say, before adding, “It’s a difficult subject to discuss with Western audiences but it’s one that must be pointed out and must be raised.”

So very true.
 
Via_Dolorosa said:
Mr. Horwwitz is for Mr. Horowitz. When he was no longer a BMOC and liberals started to question his self promoting musings, he moved to where he could make a big splash and became a darling of the right. And a darling he is
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Visit Horowitz’s Web site.

He has a LOT of material that explains the Communist activities in the United States.

Tons.

Important source.

Regardless of what some say about his motives.

www.frontpagemag.com
 
estesbob said:
I know on the left it is common to believe that anyone who disagrees with their enlightened views has either been duped by Fox news , is a racist or both. Fortunately this is not the case-there are valid objections to this mosque. Whether you agree that they’ are not not is irrelevant-just as the Jews objections to the convent outside Auschwitz were taken seriously even though the nuns meant no offense.
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Interesting that anyone some disagree with are automatically labeled the ‘left’ - it is much easier to mount a defense against a ‘group’ -

Feel free to disagree with any specific point I have made. Nowhere have I said you have been duped by Fox, or are a racist.

The point I made was that the 24 hour news cycle and political pundants are using this issue. Do you disagree with this point?

And the next post did a great job responding re the convent complete with facts.
estesbob said:
One small church had burn the Koran day-the only people that took notice of it were those on the left looking for something else to be outraged at.
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Well… here is that story on Fox: foxnews.com/us/2010/08/13/fla-pastor-defends-koran-burning-plan/
 
tpw said:
I believe it was Pope John Paul II who observed that just because a majority supports a view, doesn’t mean it’s right.

If this were some incindiary, Muslim extremist group with proven ties to Al Quaeda or the Taliban that would be one thing. What we do have is a group of Sufi Muslims of a mystical bent who have proven to be supporters of U.S. law and whose leader, the current imam, has served as an ambassador of sorts to the Middle East during the Bush administration.

Rather than act with intelligence you have a group of political opportunists (Gingrich) and people lacking in any form of credibility (Palin) attacking something they know very little about, yet who are more than happy to stoke the fires of miscontent, bigotry and genuine suffering for their own political ends. How deplorable.

To make matters worse according to the Wall Street Journal this empty debate is playing right into the hands of extremist groups who are using it to stoke further discontent among more extremist Muslims. So how about that - Gingrich, Palin and Bin Ladin are on the same page. Birds of the same feather fly together.
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Exactly.
Perhaps the Cheney prediction that we will be attacked must be fulfilled and this is a way to ensure it will happen.
foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/04/report-cheney-warns-new-terrorist-attacks/
 
estesbob said:
You know that people are not interested in honest discussion when they start ranting about the usual left-wing bogeyman. Palin ,Gingrich ,Fox news, Wall Street Journal etc. etc. etc… For some reason the left just cannot tolerate dissent from their views- since they know that they are absolutely right about everything the only people who can possibly oppose them are people too stupid to know better that been brainwashed by the right-wing media. God save us from the self-righteous
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Seriously? — read this post - start with the last sentence first

I think the name Palin and Gingrich have been raised because of comments they have made about this issue - as well as coverage of the issue in the WSJ and Fox?? If you disagree with something someone else has said and quote them, or a news source perhaps you should address them specifically rather than label and then accuse them of being self-righteous - do you see the irony in that?
 
4elise said:
No. I would say that the 24 hour new cycle and the politicians are using this to instill fear, create and capitoliz on fear and hate, as a distraction of what really matters, and that many Americans mistakenly take the bait.

So you believe that the opposition to one is not related to the other? Really? The burn a Koran day has nothing to do with all this either?
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Has anybody else noticed that those on the left cannot carry on a discussion without constantly invoking a whole pantheon of bogeyman? Evidently we are incapable of forming our own opinions- we must be driven into fear and hate by the vast right wing conspiracy-only the enlightened on the left can come to opinions on their own. Let me rephrase God save us from the condescension of the self-righteous
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Visit Horowitz’s Web site.

He has a LOT of material that explains the Communist activities in the United States.

Tons.

Important source.

Regardless of what some say about his motives.

www.frontpagemag.com
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You forget-Horwitz drifted off the liberal plantation. One of the few mortal sins the left recognizes
 
estesbob said:
And still another left-wing bogeyman is thrown into the mix
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Why do you refuse to just discuss the issue?

The point I was making with this is that in February Chaney “predicts a “high probability” of a nuclear or biological terrorist attack in the coming years and said the Obama administration is ill-equipped to prevent it.”

Today - I believe those who are inflaming this topic are in fact empowering those who would wish to do harm to our country by radicalizing more moderate Muslims - do you disagree with this? Do you disagree that the impression of anti-Islam can only help the terrorists?
 
estesbob said:
Has anybody else noticed that those on the left cannot carry on a discussion without constantly invoking a whole pantheon of bogeyman? Evidently we are incapable of forming our own opinions- we must be driven into fear and hate by the vast right wing conspiracy-only the enlightened on the left can come to opinions on their own. Let me rephrase God save us from the condescension of the self-righteous
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Just amazing to me really…

What you are saying with the above post (again without discussing the issue) is that you are right and the ‘left’ is wrong. Self-righteous, moi?

estesbob - the ‘pantheon of bogeyman’, known to me as people who are in the public who are speaking about this issue - are part of the discussion - again - feel free to disagree with the point, but if all you are going to do is label it is difficult to have a discussion.
 
estesbob said:
Has anybody else noticed that those on the left cannot carry on a discussion without constantly invoking a whole pantheon of bogeyman? Evidently we are incapable of forming our own opinions- we must be driven into fear and hate by the vast right wing conspiracy-only the enlightened on the left can come to opinions on their own. Let me rephrase God save us from the condescension of the self-righteous
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I’d be interested to see the comments of persons who both QUOTE the “bogeyman” and also have seen the entire show/segment/whatever of the bogeyman they’re criticizing. Sometimes I wonder if the critics actually know the entire situation. You just CAN’T base your decisions on either the opinions of other people or on little snippets of information. Most poeple that I know that demonize various things have never even SEEN them. How nuts is that? How intellectually dishonest?

When I read posts that I think this is going on, it reminds me of my niece that doesn’t like green beans. She said she wouldn’t eat them because she doesn’t like them. So I asked her if she had ever eaten green beans and she confessed that she hadn’t. So then I asked her how she could know whether or not she like green beans if she had never tasted green beans. And she told me that she didn’t like green beans.

Politically, I submit that a lot of people haven’t eaten any “green beans”.
 
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