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Catherine_D
Guest
Please make sure that every man in the US understands that, and make sure those that do not obey are prosecuted accordingly!
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4elise
Guest
I think that a woman who lives in the United States should be free to practice her religion too, and if to her a symbol of her faith is a burka I support her right to wear it, at home, at her place of work, of her own free will - just as I can wear a crucifix, or my friend wears a necklace that has the star of David.Please make sure that every man in the US understands that, and make sure those that do not obey are prosecuted accordingly!
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Catherine_D
Guest
And what do you recommend if it is forced?
Itās easy to talk about āher own free willā if that is what your life is like. What if thatās not the situation? Then what?
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4elise
Guest
Like any women being forced to do something which isnāt part of her own free will by another person - be it a boyfriend, husband, she has recourse to law, womenās shelters, and opportunities to live freely in this country - other countries may not provide this avenue, and certainly not all women avail themselves of this opportunity for freedom i.e. from an abusive relationships - even in this country. (this reminds me of the women whose children were taken from them living in Utah last year - their lives were so different to me and I could not imagine living as they chose to live)
Energy and efforts can be well spent in making sure ALL women in the United States know that they have this opportunity to live as they wish - even if this means that they want to wear a burka, something that would be objectionable to another woman.
Energy and efforts should be spent to bring this opportunity for education and freedom to other women as groups do who provide education for example for young women in Afganistan.
We believe women are equal to men, yet there are people who see Catholics and canāt understand how we donāt have women priests.
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Catherine_D
Guest
Unfortunately the women in question may be subject to physical beating by male relatives if they refuse.
I submit that, were you not interested in wearing a religious symbol, and your husband or father insisted that you do so, that you would not be beaten as a consequence. So truly, is it realistic for us to say that it is āillegalā and expect that such a pronouncement will be the end of the matter? Remember, weāve had āhonor killingsā in this country, so just because something is āillegalā doesnāt mean it doesnāt happen.
But this is, in some ways, a moot point, since hijab, niqab and burka are not religious symbols, they are cultural practices. They are only promoted as religious because it is convenient to do so. Since they are not religious, and, as such, have no protection as a religious symbol, they should be summarily outlawed. They are a barbaric, anti-female custom, designed to subjugate women. I cannot understand why feminists are not at the forefront of this issue. Please join me in defeating this barbaric practice!
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estesbob
Guest
As the mosque apologists get more and more bizarre. We have truly entered the twilight zone
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
The fact that this is causing such divisiveness, the fact that this is causing such hurt among many, and the fact that this is causing such opposition, ought to tell everyone that this ābride buildingā is a total failure.
The only other way to interpret this is - WE WILL BUILD THIS ON GROUND ZERO, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. WEāRE GOING TO FORCE THIS THROUGH, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT!
The only other way to interpret this is - WE WILL BUILD THIS ON GROUND ZERO, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. WEāRE GOING TO FORCE THIS THROUGH, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT!
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4elise
Guest
I am curious why some do not chose to actually enter the discussion - rather stand back and label people.
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seekerz
Guest
All I can see this proposed Mosque causing is irrational fear and intense anger. I mean I could get irrationally fearful and intensely angry over lots of things but that doesnāt make the objects of my emotions responsible for appeasing me.
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4elise
Guest
A man beating a woman in the United States to do anything is breaking the law.
Many laws are broken - but we have law and recourse.
You may see these coverings as a cultural practice - for many women who CHOSE to wear it it is an outward sign of their religious practice - islamfortoday.com/hijabcanada4.htm - as the Carmelite nuns who are covered from head to toe media.photobucket.com/image/carmelite%20nuns%20cover%20themselves/TERESA7_album/FORUM-2/0517SAVONA-NUNS-AT-SHRINE.jpg
So no I do not think that they should be outlawed - forcing someone to do something they do not want to do by physical force is already against the law, and this should continue to be enforced, women provided opportunities to know that they have choiceā¦ this I completely agree with you.
I do join you in speaking for the rights of women around the world and for an end to disempowerment of women in all faiths - however not imposing what I would find disempowering - but giving women the opportunity to live their faith.
I think one word that has been missing (or I missed) in this discussion is respect.
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Catherine_D
Guest
If it were actually a religious practice, I might agree with you.
Since it is not, and since it is barbaric and a means to subjugate women, I emphatically disagree.
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4elise
Guest
And if a Muslim women told you that this in her understanding is how she can best live her faith to be covered by her own free will - you think she should be denied this right?
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seekerz
Guest
What does barbaric mean? Eastern women on a whole cover up much more though not necessarily as much as Muslims (Hindus for example may cover heads with their saris). They may also, in more traditional communities sit separately from men in public venues (even Christian churches) and not venture out without a companion or chaperone. Many of these women use the same explanation as the Muslim women do: that they feel protected from lewdness by these practices. Who am I to say their attitudes/practices are barbaric? They probably have similar negative feelings about some western dress and behavior.
Iām happy to mind my practices and let them mind theirs. As long as they are free to choose I have no problem with women covering themselves here or anywhere.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Embarrassed by Catholics and Americans who object to the mosque, who are neither charitable nor patriotic, in your opinion? Excuse me, but Catholic and American proponents to the mosque do NOT have a corner on these virtues. Charity begins at home, with our country as the big home that we will leave to our children of the future. And opponents to the mosque happen to love this country just as much as you do ā¦
The wisdom of the planned mosque near Ground Zero is debated with much passion on both sides, each side claiming reason and fairness. Construction should not go forward just because it can be done without legal impediments. The mosque site can be moved to another place as a compromise, where it is not a reminder of the horror associated with 9/11, and would not be regarded as a victory structure. Contrary to conclusions already reached by well meaning proponents, a compromise does not translate to mistreatment or discrimination of Muslims. Nobody is being excluded and no freedom is being curtailed.
Underlying the clashing positions on the mosque is that one side sees the 9/11 terror act has a connection to Islam without accusing all Muslims guilty, while the other side fails or refuses to see that there is a connection.
The issue that many rational people have with Islam (not Muslims, okay?) is it comes with the baggage of sharia and supremacist ends, not compatible with Western secular values and Judeo-Christian roots. As long as adherents of Islam who choose to live here honor our traditions and common good as the founding fathers envisioned for this great country, the door is and should remain open to them and their places of worship.
What is not a definition of place of worship? Think Taiba mosque in Hamburg, where the Islamist plotters of 9/11 hatched their demonic scheme to bring down the twin towers and other American symbols. Said mosque was shut down by the Germans early this month, upon completion of investigation, nearly 9 years after the horror that shook us all.
We have much to gain with more caution and prudence, post 9/11.
Respectfully, I donāt see that we are losing or devaluing any core American or Christian value in opposing the mosque.
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4elise
Guest
Respectfully, I believe that by opposing the construction of the mosque 2 blocks from ground zero in an old retail store we are
(1) making a false connection between all Muslims and terrorists.
(2) feeding an anti-Muslim sentiment in this country that can only create additional divisions and create opportunities for radicalization of more moderate Muslims
(3) allowing pundants to use this issue as a distraction from more important issues
(4) stepping away from our core values of religious freedom as Americans
If it were to be found that this center breaks laws then by all means shut it down, as they did in Germany. You say* āAs long as adherents of Islam who choose to live here honor our traditions and common good as the founding fathers envisioned for this great country, the door is and should remain open to them and their places of worship.ā* and that is EXACTLY the point -
This is exactly why we need to be supportive of their right to build on property they own, where zoning laws allow - without regard to their religion - and perhaps especially because of their religion - speaking out for them demonstrates to the world that we āwalk the walkā - we act on our values - IMHO it is very important.
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Good_News_1
Guest
But in point of fact, it will be, so what is the point of discussing these āshoulds?ā
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Alcrusader
Guest
If Muslims allow you to build Churches in their countries, then you should allow them too.
But if they forbid you, then why shouldnāt you do the same with them?
But if they forbid you, then why shouldnāt you do the same with them?
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Pitcharan
Guest
Godās will alone prevails (Wohi hota hai, jo mansur-e-Khuda hota hai)
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Pitcharan
Guest
Are you suggesting that all christians should reject and abandon what our Lord taught :Do as you would like to be done by and replace it with a man-made perversion Do to others exactly what they they do to you? This is how the hard hearted people of OT times perverted Godās law: Godās ālove commandā: āDo not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19 :18), was compromised to the extent of institutionalising hatred and revenge by hard hearted people who had it written down: If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. (Lev 24:19-20).
Our Lord suffered and died for the cause of truth and salvation of mankind; do you want to reverse His Love command and corrupt Christendom?
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Via_Dolorosa
Guest
The community center is not ON ground zero. It is near ground zero in an old Burlington Coat Factory. It is a community center that has a mosque chaptel ( for lack of a better word) in it. Just like the Pentagon has one in it.
When first proposed no one complanined. Some of the biggest neah sayers where all for it. What changed? I say someone turned on the hate machine and once again made an issue where previously there was none.
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