Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[seekerz]

Those who oppose the Mosque are the first to throw away this essential American freedom.

Maybe that is the intent: throw away our freedoms, change the constitution, remake America, then blame it on those we disagree with…

 

[scipio337]

He’s the president of the United States, which includes muslim citizens. Sometimes you do what is right instead of what is popular.

And sometimes, you straddle a fence in the effort to not be unpopular.

WASHINGTON – Weighing his words carefully on a fiery political issue, President Barack Obama said Saturday that Muslims have the right to build a mosque near New York’s Ground Zero, but he did not say whether he believes it is a good idea to do so…

“I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right that people have that dates back to our founding.”

FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, FOR THE LAST TIME, NOBODY (AND APPARENTLY, PRES OBAMA) IS ARGUING THAT THEY DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO BUILD THERE!!!

 

[Catherine_D]

Maybe that is the intent: throw away our freedoms, change the constitution, remake America, then blame it on those we disagree with…

There is a significant segment of the population in this country that believes the current administration is doing just that. Thanks for noticing!

 

[scipio337]

Thank you - he is the president of the United States as you say which includes Muslims citizens - and the commander in chief - for a military that includes Muslims - involved in two wars to protect the rights of countries with a majority of Muslims to dictate their own futures. Demonizing a faith based on the radicals does none of us any good. Blessings

I was one of those people who put their lives on the line overseas to protect the rights of Muslims.

I’m not “demonizing a faith based on the radicals”. I’m concerned Rauf has ties to radicals.

 

[Catherine_D]

I was one of those people who put their lives on the line overseas to protect the rights of Muslims.

I’m not “demonizing a faith based on the radicals”. I’m concerned Rauf has ties to radicals.

Rauf has also advocated that the US become “more Shariah compliant”. Shariah law allows men to beat their wives with impunity, devalues women and makes them 2nd class citizens, and allows such things as stoning to death. And this is just part of it.

These views are radical in the extreme. This is what Rauf seeks to impose on this country.

 

[seekerz]

There is a significant segment of the population in this country that believes the current administration is doing just that. Thanks for noticing!

I believe that is what the extreme right in this country is doing, thanks for putting me on notice to clarify. They have been fear-mongering since before this administration took office. Since that level of fear cannot coexist with true freedom, I’m afraid they gave up their freedom even before this administration was sworn in…Now they are simply looking for a bogeyman to blame and for some reason for right now, that bogeyman is Islam.

 

[seekerz]

Rauf has also advocated that the US become “more Shariah compliant”. Shariah law allows men to beat their wives with impunity, devalues women and makes them 2nd class citizens, and allows such things as stoning to death. And this is just part of it.

These views are radical in the extreme. This is what Rauf seeks to impose on this country.

You know, what really confuses me is this: what’s the real reason for opposition to the mosque? I keep hearing it’s not about Islam, then I read comments like yours. How would for example moving the location, prevent Sharia being “imposed” on the country? Could it not be “imposed” from any mosque anywhere, including the site where Muslim prayers are held within the Pentagon?

I think the mosque opponents need to call a conference to decide just what the justification for their opposition is based on. Really. Get it straight then maybe the other side can hear what you’re saying. Until then this is just a spectacle that mixed-up people are making of themselves before the world - which of course they are totally free to do…

 

[Catherine_D]

You know, what really confuses me is this: what’s the real reason for opposition to the mosque? I keep hearing it’s not about Islam, then I read comments like yours. How would for example moving the location, prevent Sharia being “imposed” on the country? Could it not be “imposed” from any mosque anywhere, including the site where Muslim prayers are held within the Pentagon?

I think the mosque opponents need to call a conference to decide just what the justification for their opposition is based on. Really. Get it straight then maybe the other side can hear what you’re saying. Until then this is just a spectacle that mixed-up people are making of themselves before the world - which of course they are totally free to do…

So far as I can read, the point in bringing up Rauf’s views on Shariah law is to illustrate his extreme radical views. He is being portrayed as a moderate and a “bridge builder” but an examination of his record does not support that.

I personally have no stake in the outcome of this controversy. No one I personally knew died in the murders of September 11. So I can’t personally identify with those who lost loved ones that day. I can only sympatize with their loss and try to understand their pain.

In this controversy, I cannot help but notice a double standard. Those who support the mosque being built there claim it is for religious freedom and the first amendment. Well, those that oppose the mosque have first amendment rights too, and that includes expressing their opposition.

No one that I have read about, or seen in a news report or televised discussion, says that the building of the mosque is not legal, no one questions that. But just because something is legal doesn’t make it right. Abortion is legal, yet it is a grave sin. So clearly legal does not equal moral. Maybe once upon a time it did, but not anymore.

Tolerance goes both ways. That is, if it is truly tolerance. I’m not seeing the tolerance go both ways in this controversy. If it doesn’t go both ways, then what you end up with is one side imposing its will on the other. That’s not freedom, that’s tyranny.

 

[seekerz]

So far as I can read, the point in bringing up Rauf’s views on Shariah law is to illustrate his extreme radical views. He is being portrayed as a moderate and a “bridge builder” but an examination of his record does not support that.

I personally have no stake in the outcome of this controversy. No one I personally knew died in the murders of September 11. So I can’t personally identify with those who lost loved ones that day. I can only sympatize with their loss and try to understand their pain.

In this controversy, I cannot help but notice a double standard. Those who support the mosque being built there claim it is for religious freedom and the first amendment. Well, those that oppose the mosque have first amendment rights too, and that includes expressing their opposition.

No one that I have read about, or seen in a news report or televised discussion, says that the building of the mosque is not legal, no one questions that. But just because something is legal doesn’t make it right. Abortion is legal, yet it is a grave sin. So clearly legal does not equal moral. Maybe once upon a time it did, but not anymore.

Tolerance goes both ways. That is, if it is truly tolerance. I’m not seeing the tolerance go both ways in this controversy. If it doesn’t go both ways, then what you end up with is one side imposing its will on the other. That’s not freedom, that’s tyranny.

How can it be tyranny when the land is privately owned? It’s not the government donating the land.

I am free to demonstrate outside the houses of Wall Street fat cats but they are also free to build their multimillion dollar homes. That they might proceed to build such homes with their legally obtained (and in my mind, immoral) mega-bonuses, does not equate to any kind of definition of tyranny I’m aware of.

Your post just cements my impression of confusion in the ranks of mosque opponents. We are free to support or oppose it, they are free to build it AND there is no tyranny in them exercising that right.

 

[4elise]

There is a significant segment of the population in this country that believes the current administration is doing just that. Thanks for noticing!

It is not the administration that is objecting to the building of the Mosque — and therefore disregarding our basic values of religious freedom,** it is IMHO the pundants **using the issue as a political football, **those who are afraid **because they haven’t taken to heart the words of Jesus 'Be Not Afraid, , , and yes, some who are anti-Muslim, who lump all Muslims with terrorists.

 

[scipio337]

How can it be tyranny when the land is privately owned? It’s not the government donating the land.

I am free to demonstrate outside the houses of Wall Street fat cats but they are also free to build their multimillion dollar homes. That they might proceed to build such homes with their legally obtained (and in my mind, immoral) mega-bonuses, does not equate to any kind of definition of tyranny I’m aware of.

Your post just cements my impression of confusion in the ranks of mosque opponents. We are free to support or oppose it, they are free to build it AND there is no tyranny in them exercising that right.

And your post just confirms the willful ignorance of those in support who are willing to turn a blind eye to any impropriety, ties to terrorism, questionable statments, etc.

You speak of Islam being the “bogey man”, but your are quite guilty of doing the same with your “extreme right in this country is doing… fear-mongering”…yadda, yadda. Everything motivated on the “extreme right” (because evidently, that MUST be the only type of people who are opposed to this community center/mosque) is done so out of fear-mongering, hatred, racism, a certain joy in kicking puppies, etc, etc, etc.

Are you willing or to acknowledge that people have legitimate concerns regarding this community center, or do we get to see you demonize people who have an opposing view for another 60 pages???

 

[4elise]

I was one of those people who put their lives on the line overseas to protect the rights of Muslims.

I’m not “demonizing a faith based on the radicals”. I’m concerned Rauf has ties to radicals.

Thank you for your service.
I believe you are concerned about Rauf’s ties.

I believe those ‘ties’ have been made by others - and what you fought for - to protect the rights of Muslims includes their right to build a Mosque on private property, just as much as the right of yourself and others to protest.

 

[4elise]

Rauf has also advocated that the US become “more Shariah compliant”. Shariah law allows men to beat their wives with impunity, devalues women and makes them 2nd class citizens, and allows such things as stoning to death. And this is just part of it.

These views are radical in the extreme. This is what Rauf seeks to impose on this country.

These things are against our laws.
These things will not stand in our country.

 

[estesbob]

And your post just confirms the willful ignorance of those in support who are willing to turn a blind eye to any impropriety, ties to terrorism, questionable statments, etc.

You speak of Islam being the “bogey man”, but your are quite guilty of doing the same with your “extreme right in this country is doing… fear-mongering”…yadda, yadda. Everything motivated on the “extreme right” (because evidently, that MUST be the only type of people who are opposed to this community center/mosque) is done so out of fear-mongering, hatred, racism, a certain joy in kicking puppies, etc, etc, etc.

Are you willing or to acknowledge that people have legitimate concerns regarding this community center, or do we get to see you demonize people who have an opposing view for another 60 pages???

 

[Catherine_D]

It is not the administration that is objecting to the building of the Mosque — and therefore disregarding our basic values of religious freedom,** it is IMHO the pundants **using the issue as a political football, **those who are afraid **because they haven’t taken to heart the words of Jesus 'Be Not Afraid, , , and yes, some who are anti-Muslim, who lump all Muslims with terrorists.

Actually, the previous statement was not in reference to the current administration’s position on the mosque, it was more general. The current administration is clearly in favor of the mosque.

Having said that, and back to the issue at hand, which pundits are you referring to? What statements have they made that lead you to this conclusion?

 

[seekerz]

And your post just confirms the willful ignorance of those in support who are willing to turn a blind eye to any impropriety, ties to terrorism, questionable statments, etc.

You speak of Islam being the “bogey man”, but your are quite guilty of doing the same with your “extreme right in this country is doing… fear-mongering”…yadda, yadda. Everything motivated on the “extreme right” (because evidently, that MUST be the only type of people who are opposed to this community center/mosque) is done so out of fear-mongering, hatred, racism, a certain joy in kicking puppies, etc, etc, etc.

Are you willing or to acknowledge that people have legitimate concerns regarding this community center, or do we get to see you demonize people who have an opposing view for another 60 pages???

Uh, excuse me but which specific point/points in my post are you referring to? If you feel the need to vent over the confusion among mosque opponents, I can empathize with you. On the other hand, if you are seeking a rational discussion where I say something specific and you counter it, I’d be more than happy to oblige…as of my previous post, the ball is in your court.

 

[4elise]

Actually, the previous statement was not in reference to the current administration’s position on the mosque, it was more general. The current administration is clearly in favor of the mosque.

Having said that, and back to the issue at hand, which pundits are you referring to? What statements have they made that lead you to this conclusion?

I’ve quoted Gingrich and others have quoted Palin - others have quoted reporters on CNN and Fox - which has been discussed at length… doing so most have been accused of using them as the right wing ‘boogie men’ — so obviously that is in vain to have any reasonable discussion… most recently the President’s support for the right to build the Mosque (the actual original point of this thread) gave his opposition something to inflate (even if they agreed with the idea only 6 months ago) - so now this issue is in the public as something to rally to troops against, to disseminate misinformation about to manipulate -

And to agree with this issue - one is automatically labeled as the ‘left’ - because IMHO there is a great desire to divide our country for the political interest of those who wish to gain power - it is disgusting.

 

[estesbob]

Uh, excuse me but which specific point/points in my post are you referring to? If you feel the need to vent over the confusion among mosque opponents, I can empathize with you. On the other hand, if you are seeking a rational discussion where I say something specific and you counter it, I’d be more than happy to oblige…as of my previous post, the ball is in your court.

There has been no confusion from mosque opponents. We have stated clearly that we believe building a mosque at this location is insensitive. In reply we have been told that we are racist, bigots, mindless robots being controlled by a vast white wing conspiracy etc. etc. etc. This is been sprinkled with attacks on the usual far left bogeymen-Sarah Palin ,Newt Gingrich , Dick Cheney George Bush yada yada yada. 9/11 victims who have posted to this forum have been told to quit whining and get over it. They thread jumped the shark yesterday when the mosque apologists started personal attacks on anyone disagreed with them.

 

[estesbob]

I’ve quoted Gingrich and others have quoted Palin - others have quoted reporters on CNN and Fox - which has been discussed at length… doing so most have been accused of using them as the right wing ‘boogie men’ — so obviously that is in vain to have any reasonable discussion… most recently the President’s support for the right to build the Mosque (the actual original point of this thread) gave his opposition something to inflate (even if they agreed with the idea only 6 months ago) - so now this issue is in the public as something to rally to troops against, to disseminate misinformation about to manipulate -

And to agree with this issue - one is automatically labeled as the ‘left’ - because IMHO there is a great desire to divide our country for the political interest of those who wish to gain power - it is disgusting.

Actually what you and others said was that those who oppose the mosque had based their opinions on the directions from the usual left-wing bogeyman. The only thing I disagree with the person who commented that the left claims these bogeymen kick puppies is at the left really believes they eat a puppies for breakfast every morning.

 

[4elise]

There has been no confusion from mosque opponents. We have stated clearly that we believe building a mosque at this location is insensitive. In reply we have been told that we are racist, bigots, mindless robots being controlled by a vast white wing conspiracy etc. etc. etc. This is been sprinkled with attacks on the usual far left bogeymen-Sarah Palin ,Newt Gingrich , Dick Cheney George Bush yada yada yada. 9/11 victims who have posted to this forum have been told to quit whining and get over it. They thread jumped the shark yesterday when the mosque apologists started personal attacks on anyone disagreed with them.

Where was someone personally attacked?
Where was a victim told to get over it?