Obama declares support for same-sex marriage

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And marriage was around before there were nation states to issue marriage licenses. Marriage is for the creation and rearing of children which dates back to the beginning of man, so it does predate Judaism and the USA
So once again…going by your definition of marriage: if a couple does not intend or want to create and rear children, and intend to use birth control for the rest of their lives as they have sex-- then they, too, should not be allowed to get married.

Yes, I’m thinking marriage predated Judaism…and has not always been a religious ceremony, correct?
Or at least, it was a ceremony of other religions before Judaism and Christianity.

Therefore, the definition of marriage for everybody should not be the job of the Jewish or Christian leaders. I mean, a Buddhist would not need to follow a definition of something a Catholic is taught–correct? A Catholic would not follow the definitions of the Mormon church.
Jews don’t believe Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah and son of God, right?–and that’s a biggie in religious belief.
So each religion, or non-religion, seems to have their own definitions of what’s what and they differ with what they teach their followers.

Therefore…even if the Catholic or Jewish religion defines homosexuality as sinful or disordered and marriage as something that can only be between men and women…it is only defining it for their followers.

Other religions or those who are not-religious are indeed free to define homosexuality and marriage differently.
 
And just which religions or non-religions have defined marriage since the beginnings of history in a way which included homosexual marriage? None that I am aware of. They viewed marriage as between men and women for the very practical purpose of continuing their civilization and their society. Some societies had nothing agaist homosexual practices; but only opposite sex couples could be married. That was taken for granted, as a matter of nature.
 
Laugh all you want. The topic also does not come up in my dealings with associates who are homosexual (relatives, acquaintances, friends, employees of mine). It would be inappropriate for me to bring it up, and probably most of them are not interested in hearing opinions of others regarding personal decisions they have already made and are living. (I assume that if they were interested in knowing my opinion, they would ask me.)

It would be particularly inappropriate in a work setting to discuss it. One of my homosexual employees has brought it up several times; I merely listen and do not engage her. I believe she thinks that I agree with her because I do not argue but merely listen without comment. The topic has zero to do with my professional relationship with her, or with her work product. In addition to legal and social problems that could arise by my offering an unsolicited opinion, my opinion about her lifestyle choices is irrelevant to her performance on the job.
Some excellent points in there. Sometimes when we bring up something and offer our view when people have not asked us for our take on something, it can result in problems. Sometimes it’s best to do as you do with your coworker and merely listen. 👍
 
Manny Pacquiao, Christian Filipino boxer and congressman, has reportedly disagreed with President Barack Obama’s support of redefining marriage to include same-sex couples, and has insisted people should always put God’s word first.
Manny Pacquiao for president! Catholic, boxer, Filipino… what’s there not to like? Instead we get stuck with at best a CEO banker type or worse, the defacto leader of the culture of death.
 
And just which religions or non-religions have defined marriage since the beginnings of history in a way which included homosexual marriage? None that I am aware of. They viewed marriage as between men and women for the very practical purpose of continuing their civilization and their society. Some societies had nothing agaist homosexual practices; but only opposite sex couples could be married. That was taken for granted, as a matter of nature.
That’s quite right. Societies have long recognized marriage as being exclusively being a state existing between male and female. So much so, in fact, that in some cases, as in English Common Law, the state of marriage was simply imposed by legal fiat upon cohabiting couples that met certain criteria, irrespective of the couple never having undergone any ceremony.

What this touches upon is that the state of marriage is recognized by the state not as a validation of love, but for other reasons. Moderns are somehow confused that the state is necessary to validate (insert following here) “love”, or “relationships”, or sex, or something. But marriage does not exist to put the Government OK on Erotic Love. That’s the irony of the whole situation here. Gays hope that the state will allow marriage for that reason, it’s the official approval of disordered sex that will cause, they feel, what they know to be disordered to become ordered.

Marriage as a civil institution exists in order to impose upon males and females responsibility for the offspring that they create, whether they love each other or not. That’s the primary reason for the legal state of marriage. The secondary reason is to give to those who have created children a bit of an economic advantage to aid in their rearing, thereby lessening that chance of children, in both instances, becoming a burden on the state. The final reason that the state recognizes marriage is that it recognizes what the Church has recognized as a fact from day one, which is that married couples really do become one. If you’ve been married for a long time, and I have, you know the extent that’s true. Marriage was recognized by the state as if it wasn’t, a lot of widows, primarily female, would have lost their property upon their husband’s deaths, and additionally marriage provides an estate plan for blood relatives where none otherwise has been created, reflecting the desires of the overwhelming majority of people.

Marriage still serves all of these purposes, although it’s been badly damaged in modern times by legal modifications to the state of marriage (I’ll touch on that in a second).

Homosexual “marriage” serves none of these purposes. The sex act in same sex couples does not create life. It’s noted that gays can adopt, but then singles can adopt in many places too. Gays, from the state’s perspective, do not “risk” creating life, and therefore their sexual behavior does not risk creating wards of the state, eliminating one of the reasons that marriage was recognized by the state. As noted they can adopt (although the jury is out on whether that’s a good idea or not) but then so can singles (for whom the jury is likewise out).

There’s very little to suggest that the bond between same sex couples equates with the same bond that exist between married conventional couples, and in fact the opposite seems to be the evidence. Therefore the property protection aspects of marriage actually probably amount to a legal complication for them rather than a benefit. And in terms of inheritance the same is true, as they cannot create life. In a few years we can anticipate a lot of legal challenges from blood relatives of deceased gays, where they lack a will, as those who have a traditional right to inherit take on those whose claim is based on sharing a bed and a disordered sense of erotic love.

All of these things not only argue for the continued existence of the traditional definition of marriage, but argue against recognizing even “civil unions” of gays. Frankly, it’s a really bad deal for gays, as well as everyone else, and mostly amounts to an increased set of business for lawyers really.

But then. . . (continued below)
 
But then. . . (as I was saying). . . aren’t a lot of my arguments above about the reasons the state recognizes marriage obsolete? We now have lots of couples whose marriage amounts to nothing more than a party and sex, followed by divorce. Couples have children without being married and with next to no legal implication all the time. Couples never become one as they split up so rapidly, and make a mockery of divorce by serial marriages. With all that being the case, shouldn’t we just throw in the civil towel and allow any definition of marriage?

No.

For one thing, if marriage is serving no purpose for the state, the state shouldn’t recognize it at all. The state’s not in the “let’s validate your sex act” game, or shouldn’t be.

Moreover, however, all the reasons that the state recognized marriage in the first place still exists.

What this debate should be waking us up to is not that we now have a debate about allowing gays to marry (which they already can, as long as its to a member of the opposite sex) but that we’ve allowed a massive corruption of the definition of marriage to occur. And our society is suffering from it hugely. All the time you read in the paper about the “boyfriends” of young mothers beating up the kids of their “girlfriends”, who often have had children by multiple bed partners. Kids are being raised by their mothers alone, as the father was never married to the mother and took off. When young men are killed they leave complicated estates (I’ve seen it) with multiple mothers standing in desperate hope of some funds for children by one man who never learned that his sex organs didn’t exist for more than entertainment. Poverty is increasing in the country, and it’s link to a lack of marriage in the parents is well demonstrated.

What all this tells us is not only that things have become so debased we can’t recognize what marriage is between opposite genders, we can’t recognize, as a society, what it is for at all.

If there’s any hope here, and by that I truly mean for our society, we need to reverse this trend. Drawing a line in the sand with gay marriage is a good place to start, but it’s pretty much digging a trench in the supply depot miles behind the lines, because we failed on the first lines of defense. What really needs to occur is to take some ground back starting right now.

There’s lots of ways this can occur, but a good place to start would be to start advocating recognizing a common law state of marriage where sex has produced children. It doesn’t matter what impact that has on the parents freedom or anything else. Let’s not worry about child support. If you had sex, and had a kid, in the eyes of the state, you’re married.

And let’s make divorce more difficult. Once you are in, particularly if you have children, you’re in. If you have to separate so be it, but easy divorce is not in the best interests of the state. Nor is serial marriage.

All of this can’t happen all at once, but one thing that can happen is to quit pretending that we have to accept everything personally. Attitudes make a big difference. A friend getting divorced and remarried? Don’t go to the second marriage and sure don’t participate in it. Friend having a kid out of wedlock, don’t pretend like that’s oh so nifty. Ask, “so how is the father?”. Some male you know have a knocked up girlfriend? Ask, “so when is the wedding”. Quite pretending like all of this is okay, in other words.
 
We shall try this again:

A) The President is not Catholic. As such, he is not bound by the CCC or the Bishops. He can not be referred to as a heretic, because he is not Catholic.

B) What occurs in Confession including all details regarding, is not open to speculation or discussion by others.

C) I do not recall His Holiness or any of my last 2 Bishops ever telling me I could/couldn’t vote Mr. Obama. Everything else is a personal opinion and is not binding.
The Church doesn’t base its teachings on specific people Thus you will never see them teach that you can not vote for a specific person by name. They have made it clear’),however that you can not support someone who supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand.
Couple that with Obamas support of homosexual couplings and it is beyond belief that any Catholic believes there are proportionate reasons that would allow them to vote for Obama
 
The Church doesn’t base its teachings on specific people Thus you will never see them teach that you can not vote for a specific person by name. They have made it clear’),however that you can not support someone who supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand.
Couple that with Obamas support of homosexual couplings and it is beyond belief that any Catholic believes there are proportionate reasons that would allow them to vote for Obama
Unfortunately, this relegates Catholics to being One Issue voters, and, I think, makes us more irrelevant when it comes to all the other issues facing our country. 🤷
 
Unfortunately, this relegates Catholics to being One Issue voters, and, I think, makes us more irrelevant when it comes to all the other issues facing our country. 🤷
What “relegates Catholics to being One Issue voters” is the gravity of the issues, not the policy. Were President Obama to scuttle his support for abortion, contraception, and homosexual marriage, it wouldn’t be “One Issue”.
 
What “relegates Catholics to being One Issue voters” is the gravity of the issues, not the policy. Were President Obama to scuttle his support for abortion, contraception, and homosexual marriage, it wouldn’t be “One Issue”.
But, that’s not the way it is now, and will not be for a long while if ever IMO, meaning that until that day Catholics will remain One Issue voters.
 
But, that’s not the way it is now, and will not be for a long while if ever IMO, meaning that until that day Catholics will remain One Issue voters.
Then so be it. Until such a time that there are no issue of such import, we Catholic voters will have to remain so.
 
Then so be it. Until such a time that there are no issue of such import, we Catholic voters will have to remain so.
It is unfortunate that the Democrat Party has so embraced the culture of death that Catholics are limited in their choices.
 
So once again…going by your definition of marriage: if a couple does not intend or want to create and rear children, and intend to use birth control for the rest of their lives as they have sex-- then they, too, should not be allowed to get married.
Not ‘once again,’ because you changed from claiming a couple not able to, to a couple choosing not to. In this case of choosing not to have children, yes it is not a marriage. Of course that ability it very new and a key to why many people longer know what marriage is.
Yes, I’m thinking marriage predated Judaism…and has not always been a religious ceremony, correct?
Or at least, it was a ceremony of other religions before Judaism and Christianity.
I would say there was a time when there never was a ceremony. It is a natural human arrangement to produce and raise children.
Therefore, the definition of marriage for everybody should not be the job of the Jewish or Christian leaders. I mean, a Buddhist would not need to follow a definition of something a Catholic is taught–correct? A Catholic would not follow the definitions of the Mormon church.
Jews don’t believe Jesus is the long-awaited Messiah and son of God, right?–and that’s a biggie in religious belief.
So each religion, or non-religion, seems to have their own definitions of what’s what and they differ with what they teach their followers.

Therefore…even if the Catholic or Jewish religion defines homosexuality as sinful or disordered and marriage as something that can only be between men and women…it is only defining it for their followers.
I see no different purpose for Buddhist, Muslim, Christians, Mormons, Jewish, Shinto, or Zoroastrian marriage. Same sex marriage does not satisfy that basic human purpose.
Other religions or those who are not-religious are indeed free to define homosexuality and marriage differently.
One is free to define homosexuality, marriage, bicycle, continent, or motor-scooter any way they choose, but it doesn’t mean others are forced to accept these new definitions. Marriage is a child focused human institution for the creation and rearing of children; it has historically been supported by the tribe for the good of the tribe. The tribe can turn its back on marriage but it can’t change what it is. The President seems to have turned his back on marriage.
 
What “relegates Catholics to being One Issue voters” is the gravity of the issues, not the policy. Were President Obama to scuttle his support for abortion, contraception, and homosexual marriage, it wouldn’t be “One Issue”.
It seems like Catholics are at least “Three Issue Voters.” I wonder how many issues effect the vote of the average corn farmer.
 
. . . .All of these things not only argue for the continued existence of the traditional definition of marriage, but argue against recognizing even “civil unions” of gays. Frankly, it’s a really bad deal for gays, as well as everyone else, and mostly amounts to an increased set of business for lawyers really.
. . .
Your posts give a cogent defense of marriage as it has been understood throughout history. But it seems that those who favor homosexual marriage no longer want to hear reason, they simply want to do what feels right to them. We have turned into a society based mostly on personal feelings. (Which is another reason why marriages fail.)
 
Agreed. There are your rules and the website’s rules.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150
Well, what a surprise. Yet another dismissive one liner. Everyone here seems to be great at that. At least the atheists on HuffPo depend on logic, rather than snipes.

No, it is true, you have two sets of rules here. A dissenter is not trusted and yet, I am supposed to accept the truthfulness of all you say. This has happened several times already on these forums. You dismiss my entirely true story about my uncle’s annullment yet I am supposed to accept the unrealitic notion that someone here really has realistic conversations with gay friends and they openly accept that they are “disordered.”

And it seems NO ONE needs to be charitable to a Democrat here as the Prez is slandered at will. I guess I might be the only one who feels that to be uncharitable?

Nobody answered what a homosexualist was.
 
It is unfortunate that the Democrat Party has so embraced the culture of death that Catholics are limited in their choices.
I.m.o., the culture that they have embraced most profoundly is the culture of lust, and secondarily the culture of self. Regardless of what JP2 did declare, I don’t think that they regard contraception as “the culture of death,” because that’s not their orientation. Nor (because many of them are opposed to capital punishment, and opposed to expanded involvement in military conflicts, and in favor of putting some restrictions on gun ownership) do they see themselves in those ways, either, as being part of a culture of death. And because they tend to support (governmental) anti-poverty measures, including low-cost health care for the poor (medicaid, etc.) and food stamps and various “entitlement” programs, in those ways they consider themselves part of a culture of life, not death.

Why is that important? Because language means something. In order to communicate with those who oppose you (or seem to), you need to reach them on common language and common understandings. Setting aside the fact that (in addition) they also do not tend to see abortion as murder (particularly when other, anonymous people engage in it, as opposed to themselves), the other aspects of the Party do not, in their opinion, line up with any “culture of death.” So to use that language publicly is not, i.m.o., persuasive. They simply don’t “relate” to it, and thus they immediately dismiss it and tune it out.

But I doubt that many of them would disagree that their platforms encourage permission for the free exercise of unlimited lust (with whomever) and for few restrictions on the pursuit of Self – regardless of what or whom that pursuit affects. That’s why they need to be called on their internal contradictions, i.m.o. Because the unlimited pursuit of Self actually affects society profoundly — both directly and indirectly. Unchecked, the pursuit of Self destroys society, as it undermines common purpose, united goals, the experience of empathy and the practical effect of compassion. That has economic consequences which are anti-life and certainly anti-Gospel.

The Democrats – especially the portion of them who are hedonists and atheists – recoil from the concept of a common morality because they fear (as a party) associating with religion. The remedy is to discuss morality apart from religiously partisan language, and confront them on the kind of society we are headed toward, given the alternative worship of pleasure and Self which is evident as common themes in efforts which they embrace.
 
Well, what a surprise. Yet another dismissive one liner. Everyone here seems to be great at that. At least the atheists on HuffPo depend on logic, rather than snipes.

No, it is true, you have two sets of rules here. A dissenter is not trusted and yet, I am supposed to accept the truthfulness of all you say. This has happened several times already on these forums. You dismiss my entirely true story about my uncle’s annullment yet I am supposed to accept the unrealitic notion that someone here really has realistic conversations with gay friends and they openly accept that they are “disordered.”

And it seems NO ONE needs to be charitable to a Democrat here as the Prez is slandered at will. I guess I might be the only one who feels that to be uncharitable?

Nobody answered what a homosexualist was.
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