Obama has won

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Observer3 said:
I didn’t say that. You put words in my mouth. I was implying that I don’t know when life begins. That’s an honest answer. Yours is an arrogant assumption.
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Then you should educate yourself before supporting abortion. It is settled science as to when life begins. It is settled Church doctrine as to when life begins. I don’t know why you don’t know the same thing, but, since you don’t AND you are advocating for abortion, you really should educate yourself.

I don’t know what else to tell you. Science AND the Church have the same answer. Why would there be any question?

But, if you don’t feel like educating yourself about the topic, how about erring on the side of caution? Does life begin at conception? 1 month? 4 months? At delivery? If you don’t know but you oppose killing humans, why allow abortions at any stage?

Peace

Tim
 
Observer3 said:
I don’t support the death penalty. I don’t believe have the right to take a life. Abortion is much more gray than this issue. Again, not all of us agree when life begins. I believe its arrogant to assume when life begins, when in truth we don’t know for sure. And again, abortion is sometimes a necessary event when a mother’s life is in danger. I know this from personal experience of people I know.
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I’m trying to understand something. I get that you do not support the death penalty, I used to, but reflecting on it, it goes along with my view on abortion. There is no gray area. Several here have already given proof that life begins at conception. Scientist prove that life begins at conception, where is the gray area? The major difference is the baby is innocent and the murderer on death row is not. the baby did nothing to warrant its death sentence in the case of abortion.

When done to save the mother’s life as in removing the Fallopian tubes in cases of Ectopic pregnancy is hardly the same thing as having the doctor kill the baby under normal conditions. this is not an intentional act of deciding to abort the baby because it would be a burden or just because it has some issues that would make life difficult for the parent.

If you say that you don’t know when life begins, then maybe parents should have the option of post-birth abortion. some doctors have supported this. who’s to say when the baby is an actual human. Why not say, allow up to 9 months post-birth to decide whether to abort the, how shall we call, external post-partum embryo since we don’t know if it’s a real human or not.
 
seekerz said:
Note my words: the urge to cram things…

To me, there is a very distinct legalistic (perhaps paternalistic would be a better word) streak that seems to supersede the desire for legitimate dialogue and debate - that turns me off and I know I’m not alone.
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We have nothing but so-called dialogue and debate. Non stop.
 
Marijuana farms in Colorado & Washington State.

The sky is falling - The Sky Is Falling - THE SKY IS FALLING!!!
 
BroomWagon said:
And they don’t. The Republlicans have an ideology. Democrats just pander.
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Tomato and tomahto.
Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan
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Some racist Southerners, include Nathan Bedford Forrest, started the KKK. They were all white men. Okay to say that “white men” started the KKK?
Republicans never hung people.
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1, It’s “hanged,” not “hung.” Racist Southerners, some of whom were Republicans, some of whom were Democrats,hanged black men. Equal opportunity lynch mobs.
Don’t dump the shameful history of the Democrats on Republicans please.
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Learn some history, please, and you won’t dump, either…
 
oldcelt said:
You want fellow Americans to suffer? I doubt you confessor would view that attitude favorably.

John
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Yup. Only way they may ever possibly understand what they have done and the man they are cheering right now.
 
oldcelt said:
I am truly amazed at the bitterness I am hearing…At no time have I threatened to leave this great nation or refused to acknowledge the winner as my president, senator, etc.
If you cant tolerate democracy, perhaps it is best if you go somewhere else
This is the American way.
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I agree with the content of your post.

Anyhow, we’ve been partying all night and all day :extrahappy::extrahappy::extrahappy:

Sarah x 🙂
 
Observer3 said:
It’s sad, but you can see why we are so divided and gridlocked in congress just by reading this thread. We have people believing abortion is the most important issue and all else is secondary. This mindset of idealism is exactly why nothing gets done in Washington. Bring both parties to the middle to focus on things we actually can work on rather than shutting down someone doesn’t agree with our religious and moral beliefs.
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It is like that because the issues go to the heart of our very existence.
 
Z_Ninja said:
I’m trying to understand something. I get that you do not support the death penalty, I used to, but reflecting on it, it goes along with my view on abortion. There is no gray area. Several here have already given proof that life begins at conception. Scientist prove that life begins at conception, where is the gray area? The major difference is the baby is innocent and the murderer on death row is not. the baby did nothing to warrant its death sentence in the case of abortion.

When done to save the mother’s life as in removing the Fallopian tubes in cases of Ectopic pregnancy is hardly the same thing as having the doctor kill the baby under normal conditions. this is not an intentional act of deciding to abort the baby because it would be a burden or just because it has some issues that would make life difficult for the parent.
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  1. I don’t agree with you that there is “proof” of life at conception. We don’t know when the spirit joins the flesh, we can only guess. That is the gray area. No one is sure when the spirit joins the flesh.
  2. I don’t discriminate and believe babies are more important than an adult. Life is life. This innocence is only temporary - that baby will soon be just like you and me.
  3. I know of a few instances where a mother almost died, and probably would have if she had not had an abortion. In one of these cases, she already had children to take care of. It was unfortunate, but it was better to save her life than to lave 3 children without a mother. Late term abortions are usually because of health complications. If a person waits this long to have an abortion simply because they changed their mind, I personally think it’s not right to have one. However, I still think it’s not up to me to decide - it’s between that person and God. When most people discover they are pregnant and don’t want to be, they have it taken care of very early on.
 
oldcelt said:
If you cant tolerate democracy, perhaps it is best if you go somewhere else.

This is the American way.
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“After we win this election, it’s our turn. Payback time. Everyone not with us is against us and they better be ready because we don’t forget. The ones who helped us will be rewarded; the ones who opposed us will get what they deserve. There is going to be hell to pay. Congress won’t be a problem for us this time. No election to worry about after this is over and we have two judges ready to go.”
Obama senior advisor Valerie Jarrett
 
BroomWagon said:
Our system is made to keep the extreme leftist Obama and his supporters in check, we will have gridlock.
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What are you even talking about? The US is a center-right country. Obama is a center-right politician. You tell me what policies are extreme left.

Reading this thread and speaking with right-wingers in general, exposes the issue. The religious right misconstrues reality. Sure, there is some progressive movement in the electorate, and Obama is pandering to this. But even so, it’s not like he managed proper health-care reform (with a public option or single-payer). And if he did, he still wouldn’t be an extreme leftist. How could it be extreme to do what every other western country has done long ago? Nothing Obama has done is extremely left-wing. Not even close.

If you want to change moral views on abortion, I think you would have to engage with the academic world. The electorate, and young voters especially (that have recently went to college or are still in college), know the arguments and they largely reject the pro-life position (especially the one informed by religious right reasoning). The professors at the colleges reject your position, and in case you didn’t know, they’re the one’s teaching your kids and they consider you ignoramuses. That’s the reality.

As far as I can see, the religious right has written off science and learning. Opposition to evolution, stem cell research and climate change - no interest in listening to new ideas coming out of science and academia. This won’t work.
 
Does anyone remember my post from a while back about not everyone should have an equal right to vote? I don’t want to revisit all that now, expect to say that I bet more of you would agree with me now than before.

It was makers vs takers last night. Takers won. And they will continue to win. It can’t be turned back now.
 
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