Obama intensifies push for ‘Buffett Rule’

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I think SS and Medicare should be means tested although perhaps with respect to SS some return of one’s investment might be appropriate, particularly if we are trying to exact cooperation from those who paid in for decades thinking they WOULD get something out of it…whether they “need” it or not.
Actually, I hate to break it to you, but taxes are not an “investment”, That comes from a liberal mindset, there are no private accounts with SS, from the beginning it was a system where we took money from those who work and gave to those who didn’t work.
 
Actually, I hate to break it to you, but taxes are not an “investment”, That comes from a liberal mindset, there are no private accounts with SS, from the beginning it was a system where we took money from those who work and gave to those who didn’t work.
And according to reports out today, SS and SS Disability will go broke in 2016. That is ust four years from now, folks.
 
Ridgerunner you probably haven’t read my previous posts in which I am in full 100% screaming agreement with you. I think SS and Medicare should be means tested although perhaps with respect to SS some return of one’s investment might be appropriate, particularly if we are trying to exact cooperation from those who paid in for decades thinking they WOULD get something out of it…whether they “need” it or not.

I work for very successful high income individuals and they certainly have substantial incomes after retirement and don’t need the additional SS to put food on the table. I don’t think they would object to either a means testing or extended retirement age (one is still working at age 85 and collecting SS!)

My point is with respect to Stinkcat’s premise that SS is a “welfare” type system where money is transferred from working people to non-working people. I think it’s a different sort of animal. Had the feds not raided SS for other expenses, the “trust fund” might have lasted longer. DId you hear today’s news? It’s going bankrupt sooner than we thought.
Clearly something needs to be done, it’s just a matter of the method!

Lisa
Oh. My points of disagreement (if we disagree at all) are marginal. I still do, however, think that most baby boomers really never expected to be able to receive SS at all. I have heard them (and certainly younger people) say that for decades.
 
Oh. My points of disagreement (if we disagree at all) are marginal. I still do, however, think that most baby boomers really never expected to be able to receive SS at all. I have heard them (and certainly younger people) say that for decades.
You have been talking to different boomers than I’ve been around. While I agree most younger people (primarily starting with generation X) compare the chance of collecting social security to Big Foot sightings - the boomer generation most definately plans on collecting “their” social security in full with interest and COLAs.

I was going over retirement planning with an investment planner who was in his late 50s. When he asked me about my target retirement date I told him I would probably work until I was 72 or so. He seemed shocked then said, “So you want to draw SS and pay check for a couple years?”

At which I chuckled and said “Yeah, that’s a plan. Does anyone think that will happen”? He then made a comment about how it better happen because lots of people are counting on it.
 
Oh. My points of disagreement (if we disagree at all) are marginal. I still do, however, think that most baby boomers really never expected to be able to receive SS at all. I have heard them (and certainly younger people) say that for decades.
You know I suspect when people say this they don’t really think it through…if they did we’d see a lot more savings and planning for retirement. I’ve made flippant remarks to that end myself but in reality when I get that occasional statement from the SS and see how much I’ve put in (working full time since 1974 other than one year during college) I expect to at least get out what I’ve put in. Probably silly of me given the integrity (NOT!) of our politicians.

BTW I heard that the SSI portion of SS is going to be bankrupt in just a couple of years. I didn’t realize they kept those calculations separate. Apparently the grim job picture has pushed more and more people into claiming disability and collecting their SS “early.”

Lisa
 
You have been talking to different boomers than I’ve been around. While I agree most younger people (primarily starting with generation X) compare the chance of collecting social security to Big Foot sightings - the boomer generation most definately plans on collecting “their” social security in full with interest and COLAs.

I was going over retirement planning with an investment planner who was in his late 50s. When he asked me about my target retirement date I told him I would probably work until I was 72 or so. He seemed shocked then said, “So you want to draw SS and pay check for a couple years?”

At which I chuckled and said “Yeah, that’s a plan. Does anyone think that will happen”? He then made a comment about how it better happen because lots of people are counting on it.
Maybe you and i just live in different parts of the country. Around here, nobody believes in the government whatsoever, and believes in blood and bone that their ultimate resource is themselves and family. Perhaps not surprisingly, it’s one of the most conservative parts of the U.S., and most definitely in the state (Mo).
 
Maybe you and i just live in different parts of the country. Around here, nobody believes in the government whatsoever, and believes in blood and bone that their ultimate resource is themselves and family. Perhaps not surprisingly, it’s one of the most conservative parts of the U.S., and most definitely in the state (Mo).
Are people in your neck of the woods against farm subsidies? If they are, good for them, but my main point is that a lot of people seem to be conservative and against government spending, except for programs that benefit them.
 
Are people in your neck of the woods against farm subsidies? If they are, good for them, but my main point is that a lot of people seem to be conservative and against government spending, except for programs that benefit them.
Of course some are shortsighted and think of only their own hides but I believe that the level of disagreement with government spending has as much to do with what benefits us as A) whether we feel we’ve paid in and thus should get something out i.e. SS and B) when the government spends money wastefully, stupidly, unnecessarily and most importantly on what was not authorized by the Constitution.

Particularly on this list you will not find people begrudge tax dollars spent on the TRULY needy. Nor do most begrudge effective and necessary programs. What we do begrudge is the waste and the fraud and the duplication that seems rampant in the federal budget. The Catholic teaching on subsidiarity would certainly improve the utilization of our tax dollars.

Lisa
 
Are people in your neck of the woods against farm subsidies? If they are, good for them, but my main point is that a lot of people seem to be conservative and against government spending, except for programs that benefit them.
It’s hard to answer because almost all agriculture around here is ranching and they don’t get subsidies.

Probably the grain people (few) are ok with subsidies at times, but I don’t think they have relied on them for some time because market prices are sufficiently rewarding.

Ranchers don’t get subsidies for raising beef. But there are various “conservation” programs for such things as building paddocks for rapid rotation grazing, excluding cattle from streams and that kind of thing. But not many take them up on it because the government requires commitments to do certain practices consistent with the “cost-sharing”, running in a number of years. That kind of thing goes against the kind of thinking ranchers generally have, and rightly, in my view, because ranching is highly intuitive, whereas government programs are almost “Aspergers’-formulary”, to coin a term for it. Besides, last year’s drought made the whole range of practices impractical during that period anyway. People just “scrambled” with their own ideas how best to survive it, and most did, having only themselves to thank for it.

And NOBODY wants the government involved in their streams and springs. I don’t know of a single person who has taken a dime under those programs.
 
It reduces their rate of growth to be more consistent (but still at a deficit) with the economy’s capacity to pay.
Effectively the same thing.
When one looks at income stagnation for working people, one really needs to look at increases in involuntary transfer payments.
So your claim is that taxes has increased, and that these increases are responsible for income stagnation. Is the claim that taxes, as a percentage of income, has increased for working people? Show me the numbers to back that claim. Aren’t right-wingers constantly saying that rich people pay all the taxes and that the lower classes pay nothing? Or is the claim that rich people have seen an increase in taxes, rendering them too poor to invest? If so, the facts points out the reality of the exorbitant increases in income for this group, directly contradicting that claim.
That’s why childlessness and taxation are the primary enemies of prosperity for working people.
I dont’t think the lower classes should pay more taxes.
So, the real cures for low income are full employment and child-rearing.
Well, I agree that this is important, but you haven’t actually addressed the issue I brought up, which was income inequality. When it comes to income inequality, several factors play into it, but my point was a straightforward moral argument. I was simply saying - given the situation we have, with a high income inequality and low taxation (as a percentage of income) - who should we ask to sacrifice? The moral thing would be to ask the people who have benefited from the system and the recent income inequality (which is a fact). Unless you have a moral argument against this, the best thing you can do is make an economic argument, apologizing for why we cannot raise taxes.

You could say: “look, economically, it’s not viable to raise taxes. Corporations and rich people are either amoral or immoral, and will not sacrifice. They would rather take their money and invest in China, where there is people poorer than you who are willing to work in terrible conditions for less than you. If Americans struggle and starve as a result, they couldn’t care less as long as they squeeze out a couple of more bucks. Sorry about that. Unfortunately, we must ask the poor and the middle-class to sacrifice yet again.”

Do you see right-wingers taking this position? No. Until that changes, I have no interest in excuses.

PS: you might want to investigate the relationship between high employment and increases in income. High employment means that employers need workers. There are less unemployed, and thus more competition to find workers. But there is no straightforward casual relationship between employment and income increases. You have to look at the factors that come together.

For instance, certain industries pay a very low wage. People are willing to work for this wage because there is a lack of higher paid work available to them. The problem for the US, and much of the western world in general, has been deindustrialisation. Less manufacturing and less blue collar jobs. What has increased is service-sector jobs, high tech etc. This has resulted, on average, in a need for more highly skilled staff.

Now, there is a large portion of the population that isn’t suited for that kind of work. So, the lower paid worker at Walmart, who could be suited for a low-tech manufacturing job before deindustrialisation, can get paid a pittance since Walmart need not fear competition from these high-tech employers. Thus, the fact that jobs are created doesn’t necessarily result in higher wages for everyone. Things are a lot more complicated than that.
 
Well, I agree that this is important, but you haven’t actually addressed the issue I brought up, which was income inequality. When it comes to income inequality, several factors play into it, but my point was a straightforward moral argument. I was simply saying - given the situation we have, with a high income inequality and low taxation (as a percentage of income) - who should we ask to sacrifice? .
Low taxes?

What country are you talking about? Overall taxes for married people in the $50k to $200k range is about 40%-50% overall. Between income, FICA, Sales tax, and property tax I was in the 52% range last year.
 
Oh. My points of disagreement (if we disagree at all) are marginal. I still do, however, think that most baby boomers really never expected to be able to receive SS at all

I have heard that also, but my question would be, are they doing anything about it?
 
Oh. My points of disagreement (if we disagree at all) are marginal. I still do, however, think that most baby boomers really never expected to be able to receive SS at all
I have heard that also, but my question would be, are they doing anything about it?
I can’t speak for baby boomers, but I, as part of “Generation X” (more of a tweener though sociologically) have never expected to have Social Security. I’m trying to recover my 401k right now, after having my retirement funds wiped out by lay-offs twice. Other than that, I expect to be working longer.

I’m considering Long Term Care insurance, as well. I don’t expect Medicare to be there for me. My only concern is that I have no idea whether the money will be wasted. Universal healthcare? Company solvency? Then again, my retirement funds won’t mean much either if the dollar becomes worthless.

Oh yeah…I’m excited for the future on Earth. :rolleyes:

My faith is what really sustains me.
 
Of course some are shortsighted and think of only their own hides but I believe that the level of disagreement with government spending has as much to do with what benefits us as A) whether we feel we’ve paid in and thus should get something out i.e. SS and B) when the government spends money wastefully, stupidly, unnecessarily and most importantly on what was not authorized by the Constitution.
Is Social Security authorized by the constitution? What about medicare? If they are not, then why should these programs exist?
 
Is Social Security authorized by the constitution? What about medicare? If they are not, then why should these programs exist?
Yep. They are considered taxes which are authorized by the 16th Amendment. This issue was discussed at length with respect to Obamacare. Since it was supposedly NOT a tax (although the government tried to argue both sides at various times) it was then not covered by the l6th Amendment and had to find refuge under the Commerce Clause. There were many who noted that had it been a tax as was SS/Medicare it would have had a greater chance to stand.

If you listened to the discussion though, the absolute ridiculousness of “creating commerce so you can regulate it” was brought up as an argument against it.

Of course it still begs the question about whether these programs are still viable and I suspect the answer to that is no.

Lisa
 
BTW I heard that the SSI portion of SS is going to be bankrupt in just a couple of years. I didn’t realize they kept those calculations separate. Apparently the grim job picture has pushed more and more people into claiming disability and collecting their SS “early.”

Lisa
One doesn’t “claim” SSDI, they meet requirements entitling them to it. SSDI isn’t given out willy nilly.
 
One doesn’t “claim” SSDI, they meet requirements entitling them to it. SSDI isn’t given out willy nilly.
I didn’t say that. Simply that the economic downturn has resulted in more claims for SSI. Perhaps people who would have qualified but didn’t take advantage of SSI because they had better paying jobs they were able to do regardless of their limitations are now taking this option. You can check the statistics and will find that SSI has seen a noticeable increase that has been attributed to the poor job market. As a result the added demand has pushed the insolvency of ths program ahead a few years.

BTW I am well aware of SSI’s requirements as I work in healthcare.

Lisa
 
One doesn’t “claim” SSDI, they meet requirements entitling them to it. SSDI isn’t given out willy nilly.
:confused:

So…if you don’t “claim” it, how does the government find you to decide if you meet requirements? Do they have an investigative group roaming the country looking for potential SSDI recipients?
 
I dont’t think the lower classes should pay more taxes.

Well, I agree that this is important, but you haven’t actually addressed the issue I brought up, which was income inequality. When it comes to income inequality, several factors play into it, but my point was a straightforward moral argument. I was simply saying - given the situation we have, with a high income inequality and low taxation (as a percentage of income) - who should we ask to sacrifice? The moral thing would be to ask the people who have benefited from the system and the recent income inequality (which is a fact). Unless you have a moral argument against this, the best thing you can do is make an economic argument, apologizing for why we cannot raise taxes.

PS: you might want to investigate the relationship between high employment and increases in income. High employment means that employers need workers. There are less unemployed, and thus more competition to find workers. But there is no straightforward casual relationship between employment and income increases. You have to look at the factors that come together.

The problem for the US, and much of the western world in general, has been deindustrialisation. Less manufacturing and less blue collar jobs. What has increased is service-sector jobs, high tech etc. This has resulted, on average, in a need for more highly skilled staff.

Now, there is a large portion of the population that isn’t suited for that kind of work. So, the lower paid worker at Walmart, who could be suited for a low-tech manufacturing job before deindustrialisation, can get paid a pittance since Walmart need not fear competition from these high-tech employers. Thus, the fact that jobs are created doesn’t necessarily result in higher wages for everyone. Things are a lot more complicated than that.
A couple of thoughts.

You persist in speaking of “income inequality.” Where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or even Catholic teachings is there anything about income EQUALITY? I suspect you are on the Left and the Left looks at equality of OUTCOME as a goal whereas I see the Right as working for equality of OPPORTUNITY.

Now neither of us are going to be happy because neither situation will ever occur. OTOH what is the better solution…pull everyone down to “equality” as was done in communist countries or allow the freedom to succeed which may “unjustly” enrich the Steve Jobs of the world but in doing so look at how many others have benefitted? How many benefit by forced “equality.” That is the overall fallacy of your argument. There will never be income equality because the marketplace values different skills differently. Ironically some of the most unimportant skills (singing, throwing balls, hitting balls, catching balls, acting) are paid at the highest rate. Funny how no one howls that Lady Gaga is making too much money but they want doctors to operate for less per hour than the copier repairman makes (this is true btw).

As to your complaint about the lack of manufacturing jobs in America…to what do you attribute this? Greedy rich people? How about unions? How about over-regulating various industries? How about high taxation?

Just an example, a friend operated a sock making company in the south which was known for its many textile operations. She said that they wanted so much to remain in the United States but every year between union demands, taxes, and regulations they had two choices, bankruptcy or to move their plant to southeast Asia. They did the latter.

So the people who had those well paying jobs with good benefits are now flipping burgers or greeting their friends at Walmart.

Any thoughts Persuader?

Lisa
 
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