Obama intensifies push for ‘Buffett Rule’

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Here Eugenius, I will re-post my comments to give you another chance to actually answer my points:

We’ll take it one at a time. For starters, you said I was telling you to support immoral candidates. Which immoral candidates have I told you to support? Second, when did I ever say the GOP “represents God” ? Answer those questions, Eugenius, and we can have a conversation - if in fact having a two-way conversation is your goal.

Ishii
Sure, I’ll be glad to walk you through this. But first, I never said you told me to vote for immoral candidates. I pointed out that Nixon, Reagan, Gingrich, etc., were Republicans, the party you said I should vote for.

Before we continue, let me have a moment for cross-examination (no pun intended). Did you or did you not indicate that we should vote republican because their views are more in line with the Catholic church? Does the Catholic church reflect the will of God? Do you deny that you are saying that by voting Republican we are best voting for the will of God?
 
A friend sent me a link to this YouTube video of President Obama giving a talk about the need to invest in education and the Buffett Rule. Frankly, it makes sense to me, while a lot of the responses I’ve read throughout this thread don’t. The world is changing quickly and drastically. The digital age is upon us and reduces the need for many jobs. More and more manufacturing jobs are being off-shored every day. The traditional models of employment are becoming outmoded at an increasing rate. The country really does need help transitioning. Anyway, I’d welcome any comments from people that do not agree with what is in the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=4BrgcUb3MfU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
A friend sent me a link to this YouTube video of President Obama giving a talk about the need to invest in education and the Buffett Rule. Frankly, it makes sense to me, while a lot of the responses I’ve read throughout this thread don’t. The world is changing quickly and drastically. The digital age is upon us and reduces the need for many jobs. More and more manufacturing jobs are being off-shored every day. The traditional models of employment are becoming outmoded at an increasing rate. The country really does need help transitioning. Anyway, I’d welcome any comments from people that do not agree with what is in the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=4BrgcUb3MfU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Warren Buffett doesn’t agree with the Buffett rule

Education factoids:
Increasing dollars spent on education has NOT improved the standing of American students vis a vis the rest of the world.
Billions have been spent on Head Start. Every study has indicated it makes NO difference
Half of college graduates are unemployed or are making Machiato’s at Starbucks with their Masters’ in Sociology

Personal note: I could never get that five minute of my life back if I watched yet another series of falsehoods, rhetoric if not out and out lies by Obama.

No thanks
Lisa
 
Warren Buffett doesn’t agree with the Buffett rule

Lisa
Can you provide something to back up your comment about Buffett not supporting the rule. From what I understand he was aiming for a higher income bracket, but overall thinks the tax rate still needs to change. Here is an article from May 5. Full link and excerpt provided below.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05/05/buffett-rule-faces-friendly-fire/
Buffett said about a third of the 400 richest people in America pay a 15% tax rate or less. He said rates used to be much higher for the top earning Americans and that we should restore that. What’s more, Buffett said despite recently getting voted down in the Senate, he was optimistic that some form of the rule he has proposed would be adopted. “Not dead,” says Buffett, “People are bothered by inequality. Something will happen.”
Buffett said he doesn’t use offshore accounts or other tax strategies. Yet, every year, Buffett says, he compares his tax rate to others in his office, and he routinely pays the lowest rate. “They all are in the 30s, and I am in the range of 17%,” says Buffett. “It’s time we look at that.”
That comment got applause from the Buffett faithful as well.
 
Sure, I’ll be glad to walk you through this. But first, I never said you told me to vote for immoral candidates. I pointed out that Nixon, Reagan, Gingrich, etc., were Republicans, the party you said I should vote for.
Eugenius, you’re being disengenuous. I will play your silly game once, but after this, I have better things to do.

Here is your post where you said I was telling you to support immoral Republican candidates:
the “few republicans who are not exemplary examples of personal morality and using them to deface the entire party” were Republican Presidents and/or candidates, **the very people you are telling me I am supposed to support **because they are better than everyone else and supposedly respresent God. It is this idolatry I am speaking out against.
I.e. - " the Republicans were immoral candidates, the very people you are telling me I am supposed to support."
Before we continue, let me have a moment for cross-examination (no pun intended). Did you or did you not indicate that we should vote republican because their views are more in line with the Catholic church? Does the Catholic church reflect the will of God? Do you deny that you are saying that by voting Republican we are best voting for the will of God?
they are better than everyone else and supposedly respresent God. It is this idolatry I am speaking out against.
Yes, absolutely catholics should support the candidate and party whose positions are more in line with Catholic teaching. But being more in line with Catholic teaching is not the same as “representing God” now is it? It is not idolatry to make the point that on the most important issues related to the sanctity of life, the GOP is much closer to Catholic teaching than is the Democrat party. I hope this helps you understand the issue better.

Ishii
 
Can you provide something to back up your comment about Buffett not supporting the rule. From what I understand he was aiming for a higher income bracket, but overall thinks the tax rate still needs to change. Here is an article from May 5. Full link and excerpt provided below.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05/05/buffett-rule-faces-friendly-fire/
There is a specific way for those who feel undertaxed to pay more. If Mr Buffett decided to write a check for the 5 billion (what the proposed increase would generate) he would still be worth 30 billion or so. Not exactly poor. Mr Buffett has not availed himself of this opportunity to help fund the government. When asked why he instead does and plans to continue to divest his fortune on behalf of charities, he explains the charities make better use of the money

Further Mr Buffett’s statements are totally disingenuous. He MADE his fortune using the very same tax benefits for investment income that he now begrudges to others…I got mine and the rest of you can just suck it up and pay.

In addition his company is embroiled with the IRS in a huge battle over unpaid taxes. If Mr Buffett truly believed that regardless of the laws he should pay more in taxes he could simply capitulate and pay them.

IOW talk is cheap.
Lisa
 
Eugenius, you’re being disengenuous. I will play your silly game once, but after this, I have better things to do.
This is the relevant part of what I wrote: “…Republican Presidents and/or candidates, the very people you are telling me I am supposed to support.” I hope this helps you understand and move on.
 
When asked why he instead does and plans to continue to divest his fortune on behalf of charities, he explains the charities make better use of the money.
.Better use than he would? Or than the government would?
Further Mr Buffett’s statements are totally disingenuous. He MADE his fortune using the very same tax benefits for investment income that he now begrudges to others…I got mine and the rest of you can just suck it up and pay.
I don’t think he is being disingenuous. He is pointing out that things could be different. The tax rate obviously changes over time and in the past the wealthy have paid much more. People are always going to complain about paying taxes.
 
Personally, I do agree with taxing the rich more than the poor are taxed.
 
Now you understand why we need to be careful about over identifying with a political agenda and claiming that it represents God. There is capital “I” idolatry everywhere. By the way, I don’t really agree with your four points, each one over dramatizes and over simplifies the situation. Seeing clearly, rationally and objectively is not the same as covering one’s glasses with pitch.
Did you, then, think Obama was lying when he said he would make utility rates “skyrocket”? Why is it irrational to think he meant it?

When he claimed the governent could determine who were and were not Lutheran ministers, did you think his minions didn’t mean it? Even Kagan and Sotomayor didn’t buy that one. Neverthless, his people argued it.

When Cdl Dolan says he’ll go to jail before paying for abortifacients and contraceptives and the Obama government doesn’t so much as blink and stays steady on its course, do you see no collision course between the Church in the U.S. and this government? Do you think Obama will back off, or do you think Dolan will? One has to, you know.

And, of course, there’s the Keystone pipeline, which would have created (or supported) more than 100,000 jobs. Obama squelched that. Is there a person in this country who does NOT realize small businesses are not hiring because they don’t know what radical thing the Obama administration is going to do next? I don’t think there’s anyone who questions that. Sure, there are those who say business people are skunks for not hiring anyway. But nobody really doubts that’s why they arent’.

Clarity? All one has to do is listen to the Obama people and watch what they do.
 
Personally, I do agree with taxing the rich more than the poor are taxed.
Given the poor (and a lot of others!) pay ZERO income taxes that’s kind of a moot point isn’t it? If nearly half of Americans don’t pay income taxes, either half of America is poor or there are a lot in higher income brackets who aren’t paying either. One of the inconvenient truths about the Bush tax cuts is that it took many lower income people OFF the rolls completely and reduced the lowest bracket by a third. I just don’t think the tax rate on poor people is even relevent since it’s non-existent.

Oh and don’t go into SS and medicare tax. They are not the same and unlike income taxes you get at least part of it back.

Lisa
 
.Better use than he would? Or than the government would?

I don’t think he is being disingenuous. He is pointing out that things could be different. The tax rate obviously changes over time and in the past the wealthy have paid much more. People are always going to complain about paying taxes.
Sorry, I should have clarified, he said the Gates Foundation would do a better job of using the money than would the Treasury.

As to your second statement, reiterating the obvious isn’t really a response to the charge that Buffett is being disingenuous. He COULD pay more. He doesn’t. You state the wealthy have paid more. Well they have also paid LESS. And your point iis?

BTW I saw Buffett intereviewed at length this morning and of course the Buffett rule came up. He was AGAIN asked “Since you specificially structure your income to take advantage of lower rates on investment income, if you think this is too low of a tax rate then why don’t you simply take more in salary?”

Habada habada habada…no answer. Sort of a “well this is the way the corporation and the board structures my compensation” as if he couldn’t set it up another way.

He was asked again why he doesn’t write a check to Uncle Sam if he feels he’s undertaxed, instead giving money to the Gates Foundation. He repeated the same answer, that the Gates Foundation would do a better job with the money. He then said if people want to pay less in taxes I suggest they make donations.

Sorry Eugenius…that dog don’t hunt. Buffett has taken advantage of every loophole or tax advantage and then piously tells the REST of us we should pay more…

Lisa
 
Please post the quote where I said a majority of Walmart Women were ‘drug addicted crazies’ I am not sure why you keep beating this dead horse. At any rate the term ad hominem refers to your attempt to degrade the quality of my argument (that there is no justification for confiscating from the successful) by claiming I think all Walmart Women are lunatics.
I am beating the horse because you are not owning up to what you have said. You seem to be very into poor people taking personal responsibility, perhaps you should do so yourself? Take responsibility for the things you say. I have quoted your statements, and we have analyzed their purpose in your argument. Unless you have some critique of the substance of my previous point, you need to recognize the point. Did I try to degrade your general argument? Haven’t we just discussed decision-making fairly thoroughly despite your characterization? Yes, we have.

Now you say that there are no justification for taxing what you call the “successful” (I don’t think I would call rich people successful without qualification. Sounds like money-worshiping to me), which would imply that you are against taxes. But you said you are for progressive taxation. I don’t understand how that is consistent.
Very few people are on government assistance without contributing to their own fate.
What does that even mean? And can you justify it? Sounds like speculation to me.
I have no idea why you’ve turned delayed gratification to conscientiousness since the two are not the same.
Oh, I assumed you were familiar with the research. The more generalized issue is conscientiousness (being one of the Big Five personality traits), and the studies revolve around different measures related to that trait.
Given that we have generations of children who have grown up with parents who are apparently not doing this, the task may fall to school teachers but unfortunately teachers cannot undo poor parenting.
Well, teachers and other role-models can step in where parents fail, but it seems to me that correlations are present from a young age, indicating that intervention needs to happen early. In any case, better parents would be preferable, and we get better parents by doing what?
As to what WE can do to motivate men to stay with the mothers of their children…again shifting individual responsibility to someone else or some organization or government program. Really?
What did I suggest? I thought I suggested higher wages, not government programs. How is it that you continue to misrepresent my position?
Good old fashioned shame might come in handy as these men think nothing of having mulitple children and dancing away after the oats are sowed.
So your hypothesis is that if we simply shamed those men (how do you think we can do this, by the way?), they would improve behavior? Is that the same logic they use in prison to rehabilitate people? Treat them like animals and shame them and they will improve (hint: it doesn’t work very well)? We improve behavior by positive reinforcement, not negative.
THe rise in out of wedlock births and use of social services has increased steadily through booms and busts. It’s not simply a matter of not having a job, it’s also a matter of knowing Uncle Sam will pay so why should you?
No, it hasn’t. There has been a significant increase in usage of social services in conjunction with the recession, which is generally the case when it comes to recessions (higher unemployment and so on). Now, I didn’t say that the historical increase(recent decades) in single parenting has been caused by a lack of jobs per se. Other issues are obviously historically linked, like I have already mentioned (gender equality, economic productivity forcing both parents to work, urbanization etc.). But I don’t think much can, or should, be done about gender equality (perhaps something can be done about decreasing the need for economic productivity, although I doubt you’re getting any of your tea-party pals to agree).

Nevertheless, when it comes to minorities, which is what we have focused on in this context, decreased mobility seems relevant . Minority men can’t see real opportunities, so they give up on trying (you’ll see that the numbers are worse the more economically depressed the area is).
So that’s your answer to all of society’s ills…take more from the successful and give to those you (or your agents) think are more deserving.
That is not what I think. I think (and it’s also a fact about income inequality) that the economy has grown in a manner that has benefited the rich enormously. So, if government needs to raise revenue, that revenue will come from the people who have benefited from the economic system being as it is (it’s not a given that it should be like this). I would be just as happy to raise more money from the lower brackets if the income growth had been more evenly distributed. But it hasn’t been, so we work with what we have. And I have never said that government transfer are the solution to all ill’s. I have made some suggestions (raise wages, empower unions, improve education, invest in R&D etc.), only some of which might need an increase in government revenue.
 
In short, you answer is “pay higher taxes”.
No, that is not my answer. I have given several suggestion, only some of which would require government funds. Now, what is excessive taxation? Is it a specific number? Is it culturally determined (which means we can change it through a change in mindset)?

So you think if we raise taxes, then people will not invest. I want evidence that this is true, because I know that, according to mainstream economics, the reality is not what you imply it is. Investment is largely driven by demand (if it wasn’t, innovation and investment would be dead in northern Europe due to “higher” taxes), and demand can be increased by higher wages or even government transfers like food stamps. Taxes do play a role, but in the current climate, where taxes are at a historical low, lowering them further will not result in much of an improvement (Bush tax cuts is a great example) but could come at a significant societal cost. Other measures can result in improvements, like government investment in R&D and higher wages to increase demand.

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the tax-system is in sore need of a revision. But the issue here is complex. Large corporations, through the use of donations and lobbyists, have a lot of sway in Washington, and have managed to gain loopholes, exemptions and subsidies for themselves – loopholes, exemptions and subsidies they are unlikely to want to part with. Thus, I predict little will happen before campaign finance reform and other measures are successful. Basically, get money out of politics.
If you want to go to college, find a way to pay for it.
I gave reasons for why I think people should be subsidized. Are you going to argue with that or state your opinion? I have no interest in an opinion without an argument.
People are already taxed high enough - including the rich.
Taxation is at a historical low. This is a well-known fact. So, no, if revenue is needed, raising taxes is acceptable. It would have been better to do it in the years before the recession (didn’t need Bush tax cuts, for instance. They didn’t provide much in terms of jobs), but we work with what we have. Basic economic theory says to save when the economy is doing well, and spend when it’s doing bad. The US didn’t save during the good times, which is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
 
Taxation is at a historical low. This is a well-known fact.
This I find confusing. What part of “[t]axation is at a historical low”? Tax rates? Tax revenues? Absolute (real) dollars? Percentage of GDP?

Based on this table, taxes as a percentage of the GDP have hovered around 19% since 1944. And this is significantly higher than 1934-1944, where it was less than 8%.

Even when the top marginal rates were 91%, we didn’t see tax revenues (as a percentage of GDP) rise with them. Rather, we see a rise in revenue when we see a rise in GDP. So it seems the issue here is how do we get our GDP to grow (and by extension, our tax revenues)? A focus on tax rates is irrelevant. Hence the Buffet rule isn’t about revenue.
 
This I find confusing. What part of “[t]axation is at a historical low”? Tax rates? Tax revenues? Absolute (real) dollars? Percentage of GDP?

Based on this table, taxes as a percentage of the GDP have hovered around 19% since 1944. And this is significantly higher than 1934-1944, where it was less than 8%.

Even when the top marginal rates were 91%, we didn’t see tax revenues (as a percentage of GDP) rise with them. Rather, we see a rise in revenue when we see a rise in GDP. So it seems the issue here is how do we get our GDP to grow (and by extension, our tax revenues)? A focus on tax rates is irrelevant. Hence the Buffet rule isn’t about revenue.
Actually if you look at the data, when Reagan cut tax rates, individual income tax revenue as a percentage of GDP went down. When Clinton raised tax rates, individual income tax revenue as a percentage of GDP went up. The economy grew during both time periods. So the relationship between tax rates and tax revenues is variable.
 
Education factoids:
Increasing dollars spent on education has NOT improved the standing of American students vis a vis the rest of the world.
Billions have been spent on Head Start. Every study has indicated it makes NO difference
Half of college graduates are unemployed or are making Machiato’s at Starbucks with their Masters’ in Sociology
Lisa
I’m confused about your negativity towards education. The video I referenced did not mention head start, although I would be interested in supporting details for what you said. I do not know much about the head start program. In the video the President talks about employee training to transition people from dead jobs into other fields. In my career I know too many hard-working people, through no fault on their part, whose jobs were displaced by their jobs going to China (a communist country, don’t forget) or India. These jobs were sacrificed in the interest of higher profit for the company and higher pay for the executives. If more jobs were created, they were not in America. Those displaced people are willing to work and jobs are available to people with the right skills, so it benefits everyone to invest in those people and provide education opportunities. It’s that old saying about “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”
 
So you think if we raise taxes, then people will not invest. I want evidence that this is true, because I know that, according to mainstream economics, the reality is not what you imply it is. Investment is largely driven by demand (if it wasn’t, innovation and investment would be dead in northern Europe due to “higher” taxes), and demand can be increased by higher wages or even government transfers like food stamps. Taxes do play a role, but in the current climate, where taxes are at a historical low, lowering them further will not result in much of an improvement (Bush tax cuts is a great example) but could come at a significant societal cost. Other measures can result in improvements, like government investment in R&D and higher wages to increase demand.

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the tax-system is in sore need of a revision. But the issue here is complex. Large corporations, through the use of donations and lobbyists, have a lot of sway in Washington, and have managed to gain loopholes, exemptions and subsidies for themselves – loopholes, exemptions and subsidies they are unlikely to want to part with. Thus, I predict little will happen before campaign finance reform and other measures are successful. Basically, get money out of politics.

I gave reasons for why I think people should be subsidized. Are you going to argue with that or state your opinion? I have no interest in an opinion without an argument.

Taxation is at a historical low. This is a well-known fact. So, no, if revenue is needed, raising taxes is acceptable. It would have been better to do it in the years before the recession (didn’t need Bush tax cuts, for instance. They didn’t provide much in terms of jobs), but we work with what we have. Basic economic theory says to save when the economy is doing well, and spend when it’s doing bad. The US didn’t save during the good times, which is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
While this is not the evidence you require, it’s pretty obvious that I can’t invest a dollar that I have to pay in taxes. And it might be noted in passing that Northern Europe isn’t looking too good right now.

And saying that government spending necessarily improves an economy really can’t be sustained. Even Keynes said it doesn’t work unless government has a surplus of money. Has nothing been learned through the 2006 and following “bubble”, when at least a portion of economic activity was fueled by borrowing? One cannot borrow and spend oneself rich. A very troubling aspect of the current situation is that, while individual debt levels are slowly (and painfully) being reduced, the government is using our credit cards for us. Right now, every man, woman and child in the U.S. owes the government bondholders $140,000. I’'m not a rich guy, so $140,000 is a big burden to me. I have four children. When my wife and I die, our kids will each owe $210,000 even if the government stopped borrowing tomorrow.

I don’t think one can conclude that the Bush tax cuts were without merit. Certainly, the deficit increased early on in his administration. Of course, there were two wars going on as well. But at a point, the deficit began to decrease and hit its low in 2007 in which there was a deficit of something like $163 billion. Not great, but a far cry from the deficits we have now. Even 2008 was better than now.

And, during most of the Bush administration, employment was greatly higher than it is now, and was even in 2008.

I do not claim that demonstrates cause and effect. I’m not sure anyone can do that, definitively. But it is simply unfactual to say it’s a slam dunk certitude that the Bush tax cuts were without beneficial economic effect.
 
I’m confused about your negativity towards education. The video I referenced did not mention head start, although I would be interested in supporting details for what you said. I do not know much about the head start program. In the video the President talks about employee training to transition people from dead jobs into other fields. In my career I know too many hard-working people, through no fault on their part, whose jobs were displaced by their jobs going to China (a communist country, don’t forget) or India. These jobs were sacrificed in the interest of higher profit for the company and higher pay for the executives. If more jobs were created, they were not in America. Those displaced people are willing to work and jobs are available to people with the right skills, so it benefits everyone to invest in those people and provide education opportunities. It’s that old saying about “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”
The underlying assumption here is that our current educational system provides the right kind of training. One might argue that if it were not for the fact that we also import workers to this country, both through legal immigration and illegal immigration. The H1B visas are for highly skilled workers. Where are the well-educated Americans who would otherwise have taken those jobs?

I really believe job creation is being stifled in this country by government policies that discourage hiring and investment. One does not have to know very many small business and manufacturing people to know that they are not hiring or investing because they can’t figure out future costs in a number of ways, all of which are government-determined.
 
In my career I know too many hard-working people, through no fault on their part, whose jobs were displaced by their jobs going to China (a communist country, don’t forget) or India. These jobs were sacrificed in the interest of higher profit for the company and higher pay for the executives. If more jobs were created, they were not in America. Those displaced people are willing to work and jobs are available to people with the right skills, so it benefits everyone to invest in those people and provide education opportunities. It’s that old saying about “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”
Something worth thinking about in all of this “job exporting” business. We are running huge balance of trade deficits. No question about that. Still, all money has to return at some point to its country of origin, or it becomes worthless. Unfortunately, we are giving our trading partners an “out” by running budget deficits. They can buy our debt instruments that our citizens have to pay out of their earnings. If that was not available to them, our trading partners would be forced to buy American goods and services with their dollars, or otherwise invest their dollars here.

We would create jobs with our own trade dollars by not running government deficits. But nobody wants to talk about that. It is the combination of foreign competition in trade AND the deficits that allow foreign countries and companies to “import” American jobs without creating offsetting employment here.
 
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