Obama plans curbs on guns

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It’s all a moot point because nobody took the 2nd amendment so literally until the 1970s, when the secular libertarian wing took over the NRA and grew in strength in the political lobby. For the majority of the 20th century the NRA was a gentlemen sporting organization, as well as an advocate for gun control reform.

The average “Wild West” town didn’t even permit people to have a sidearm while in town, which isn’t surprising because they wanted to attract business & residents and grow the economy, not scare people away. Nobody would willingly live somewhere that is open season to walking around with lethal weapons, at least not without copious brainwashing.

You simply pass whatever laws that you see fit, and if the Supreme Court doesn’t strike it down, then that’s the end of it. Quoting a few sentences written in 200-year-old ink isn’t going to undo that.
 
The founding fathers had no vision of the types of weapons the citizenry would have access to in the 21st century to commit mass murders in schools and churches to name just a couple of places.
The founding fathers had no vision of the types of weapons a government could turn against its people. China, Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. etc. in order to kill millions of their own citizens.

But the founding fathers understood that a government was potentially the greatest threat to the people. Hence the principle that the citizenry would be armed to dissuade the ambitions of the politicians.

BTW-- you do realize that there were repeating weapons with large capacity magazines in the colonial era and that Thomas Jefferson provided one such rifle to Lewis and Clark for their expedition? It was a rifle used by the Austrian Army. (Of course, in the colonial era much of the artillery was civilian owned…)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle

The briefs and rulings in Heller (Parker at the lower courts) and McDonald are fascinating reading on the origin of the Second Amendment, intended to preserve/protect a right the colonists had prior to the new government. The Congress of Racial Equality provided a great Amici brief on the racist history of gun control in the US. Gun control is always about disarming folks to make them more vulnerable.

DC Court of Appeals decision summarizes their decision:

“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constituti¬on and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defen¬se, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessnes¬s or the
depredatio¬ns of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the
important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the
citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient
for the Federalist¬s in the First Congress as it served, in part, to
placate their Anti-federa¬list opponents. The individual right
facilitate¬d militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be
barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth
for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second
Amendment’¬s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects
are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual¬’s
enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or
intermitte¬nt enrollment in the militia.”

Page 53 of the DC Court of Appeals ruling is pretty interesting commentary on technology not invalidating the principles underlying our rights:

Pg 53
The modern handgun—and for that matter the rifle and
long-barreled shotgun—is undoubtedly quite improved over its
colonial-era predecessor, but it is, after all, a lineal descendant
of that founding-era weapon, and it passes Miller’s standards.
Pistols certainly bear “some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” They are
also in “common use” today, and probably far more so than in
1789. Nevertheless, it has been suggested by some that only
colonial-era firearms (e.g., single-shot pistols) are covered by
the Second Amendment. But just as the First Amendment free
speech clause covers modern communication devices unknown
to the founding generation, e.g., radio and television, and the
Fourth Amendment protects telephonic conversation from a
“search,” the Second Amendment protects the possession of the
modern-day equivalents of the colonial pistol. See, e.g., Kyllo
v. United States, 533 U.S. 27, 31-41 (2001) (applying Fourth
Amendment standards to thermal imaging search).
 
It’s all a moot point because nobody took the 2nd amendment so literally until the 1970s, when the secular libertarian wing took over the NRA and grew in strength in the political lobby. For the majority of the 20th century the NRA was a gentlemen sporting organization, as well as an advocate for gun control reform.

The average “Wild West” town didn’t even permit people to have a sidearm while in town, which isn’t surprising because they wanted to attract business & residents and grow the economy, not scare people away. Nobody would willingly live somewhere that is open season to walking around with lethal weapons, at least not without copious brainwashing.

You simply pass whatever laws that you see fit, and if the Supreme Court doesn’t strike it down, then that’s the end of it. Quoting a few sentences written in 200-year-old ink isn’t going to undo that.
There was a heated debate over the Bill of Rights with many seeing them as unnecessary since the government wasn’t given any authority in those areas. Since the government wasn’t given any power to regulate speech, religion, press, guns, etc. it was overkill to list them separately. More skeptical folks won out.

The Heller and McDonald rulings were focused on the right as understood by the founding fathers. They closely examined how that right was understood and the principle underlying it. Your idea that the interpretation arose in the 70s is wrong. The right was always an individual right, it was based on the right Englishmen (well, protestants) had to keep and bear arms to counter tyranny by the crown.
 
The founding fathers had no vision of the types of weapons the citizenry would have access to in the 21st century to commit mass murders in schools and churches to name just a couple of places.
let alone the weapons the military and police have!
 
Lily Bernans. You said (parenthetical addition mine):
He (President Obama) needs to ban assault rifles and these ultra-lethal bullets. There is no reason anyone outside of the military and law enforcement needs those.
But WHY does, “military and law enforcement need(s) those”?

And what is “an assault rifle”?

And what are “ultra-lethal bullets”?

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
You might want to consider that Obamas legacy point and continued agenda to chip away at 2nd amendment right via executive order has been counter productive, its with no real substance and with a trust issue it drives up gun sales. In essence he has been the #1 advocate for the NRA and gun sales. That should be noted in his legacy.
 
You might want to consider that Obamas legacy point and continued agenda to chip away at 2nd amendment right via executive order has been counter productive, its with no real substance and with a trust issue it drives up gun sales. In essence he has been the #1 advocate for the NRA and gun sales. That should be noted in his legacy.
yep!
 
I wholeheartedly and without any reservation whatsoever applaud President Obama for these anticipated actions. In a 2014 poll a whopping 80% of Americans favored closing the gun show loophole.

uml.edu/News/press-releases/2014/gun-control-poll-2014.aspx

The Republican led Congress has had their chance and more than enough time to listen to the American people. Yet they have failed miserably. So if it then takes President Obama to lead the way and to do something, anything, within his power, about the gun violence in this country, may God bless President Obama for attempting to do something it. These only seem to be common sense, reasonable steps. Not an all out assault on the 2nd amendment although I’ve little doubt the NRA, the gun lobby, Republicans and their cohorts will play it up to be.
A proposal as it’s known now would not close the gun show loophole:
One proposal under consideration: make a clear distinction between gun collectors and gun sellers. Under current law, background checks are required for anyone buying a firearm from someone “engaged in the business” of selling guns (like a federally-permitted gun store or dealer). Sales made out of a person’s private collection, many of which are done online, are not subject to background checks.
The president could order a threshold be established such that anyone selling a certain number of guns annually would no longer qualify as a collector, but as someone “in the business” of firearm sales. Those buyers would then be subject to background checks.
Adopting this proposal would not eliminate the so-called “gun show loophole,” but gun control advocates argue it would be easier to prosecute offenders if the gun seller law is better defined.
cbsnews.com/news/white-house-to-unveil-executive-actions-on-gun-violence/

My emphases.
 
The public would never have a chance against a heavily armed military force today, even with the weapons they are allowed to have under the law.
That assumes people in the military would stand with a tyrant. It is also not a reason to disarm ourselves further.

Jon
 
The public would never have a chance against a heavily armed military force today, even with the weapons they are allowed to have under the law.
Thats what everyone said about the farmers and militia that fought in the American Revolution against the British…but in the end, we know how that ended.The real problem would be actually encouraging people to stand up and fight, people today are not as patriotic as they were back then, plus many would likely take the Govts side.

I think we would stand a chance, military has weaknesses that could be exploited
 
Thats what everyone said about the farmers and militia that fought in the American Revolution against the British…but in the end, we know how that ended.The real problem would be actually encouraging people to stand up and fight, people today are not as patriotic as they were back then, plus many would likely take the Govts side.
Both sides had similar weapons and the British tactics weren’t all that great. France entering the war helped draw the British away and the French Navy sealed the Brits in for the victory at Yorktown. So, as long as you can get modern military weapons like bunker busting bombs and a modern Air Force to back you, you’ll probably hang in there.
I think we would stand a chance, military has weaknesses that could be exploited
I suppose you’ll be keeping that a secret just in case.
 
The founding fathers had no vision of the types of weapons a government could turn against its people. China, Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. etc. in order to kill millions of their own citizens.

BTW-- you do realize that there were repeating weapons with large capacity magazines in the colonial era and that Thomas Jefferson provided one such rifle to Lewis and Clark for their expedition?
I don’t reside in China, Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc etc. I live in a country that for nearly 2 1/2 centuries has seen governments with leaders of various political parties come and go and we remain standing. We have even just survived 7 yrs of a President who many on this Catholic board have such disdain for and might even consider him a dictator. Yet here we are. Haven’t needed to form a militia and take up arms even against this govt. And I think we’re probably safe for another yr from having to wage war against even this govt. But then if Hillary or another Democrat is elected, it can all begin anew. :rolleyes:

I may have to revisit my history. I don’t recall Lewis and Clark going into a school and killing 20 children or into a church and killing 9 people. Or into a movie theater to commit mass murders.
 
Both sides had similar weapons and the British tactics weren’t all that great. France entering the war helped draw the British away and the French Navy sealed the Brits in for the victory at Yorktown. So, as long as you can get modern military weapons like bunker busting bombs and a modern Air Force to back you, you’ll probably hang in there.

I suppose you’ll be keeping that a secret just in case.
Goes back to David vs Goliath…its not always the biggest and strongest that come out on top.

So, do you believe a countries Govt/ military should have the upper hand over the people?
 
I don’t reside in China, Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc etc. I live in a country that for nearly 2 1/2 centuries has seen governments with leaders of various political parties come and go and we remain standing. We have even just survived 7 yrs of a President who many on this Catholic board have such disdain for and might even consider him a dictator. Yet here we are. Haven’t needed to form a militia and take up arms even against this govt. :rolleyes:

I seem to remember an incident in the 1860’s which involved a bit of violence against the government. A bit earlier there was the whiskey tax rebellion-- in both cases folks felt compelled to take up arms against the government.

Just after that 1860’s incident the Democrat run government stripped the newly freed blacks of gun ownership; allowing their KKK arm to kill, harrass and intimidate them. In fact, that disarmament of the newly freed slaves was a critical factor cited by supporters in the 14th Amendment being created and passed, if you review the debates over it. Unfortunately, the Slaughterhouse and Cruikshank rulings eviscerated the 14th amendment by declaring that the bill of rights were only limitations on the federal government not state. Hence, most of the governments in the south continued with policies oppressing the blacks- again, made easier via disarmament. More recently there were folks who took up arms against the government over some issue with a ranch, although no shots were fired the government did back off.
So, 2.5 centuries and you can guarantee to every current American and every American born in the future that the people in the US government are completely immune from the temptations of power that have plagued humanity through the ages? ‘It can never happen here’ because Americans are just born so different that they’re almost a different species of humanity? Far superior to all those lesser mortals?

Oh, here are the links to the rulings in Parker/Heller:

Ruling at the DC level, which was upheld at SCOTUS:


The SCOTUS ruling
supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Law firm which brought the case posted all the filings including Amici briefs. As I mentioned before, the Congress of Racial Equality is quite good.
dcguncase.com/blog/case-filings/
 
I don’t reside in China, Russia, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc etc. I live in a country that for nearly 2 1/2 centuries has seen governments with leaders of various political parties come and go and we remain standing. We have even just survived 7 yrs of a President who many on this Catholic board have such disdain for and might even consider him a dictator. Yet here we are. Haven’t needed to form a militia and take up arms even against this govt. And I think we’re probably safe for another yr from having to wage war against even this govt. But then if Hillary or another Democrat is elected, it can all begin anew. :rolleyes:

I may have to revisit my history. I don’t recall Lewis and Clark going into a school and killing 20 children or into a church and killing 9 people. Or into a movie theater to commit mass murders.
Why do you think so many people in todays world consider ‘militias’ to be crazy, anti-govt radicals? this is because the Govt has conditioned that belief in so many people, using the media, making examples of certain people.

Kind of strange a Govt would want to do this…right?..you know…make your potential threat out to be a nut job, make the majority of people think the same way. Best way to rid yourself of a threat is to A.) discredit the threat, and/ or B.) make people believe there is no need for a militia…very sneaky.

I think many people would be surprised if they actually read some of the requirements in the Constitution.
 
Goes back to David vs Goliath…its not always the biggest and strongest that come out on top.
I don’t believe in the point of view that the armed citizenry of the United States would have a chance against the military and think that 2nd Amendment advocates who believe that their guns are the only thing keeping a tyranny in the United States have a distorted view of reality, but I also don’t think anyone with that view can be convinced otherwise.
So, do you believe a countries Govt/ military should have the upper hand over the people?
Militarily, they do.
 
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