Obama plans curbs on guns

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If they inherited a car or bought one from a friend, wouldn’t they need a driver’s license before they could drive it on public roads? And if they had a medical or psychiatric condition that precluded getting a license, wouldn’t that be analogous to gifting a gun to someone who shouldn’t be able to get a firearms license? We do it all the time for cars, why not guns?

To be honest, this Canadian finds the US gun culture baffling. It seems to me common sense flies out the door in the US when it comes to guns.

While I have no particular love for guns and don’t own one or want one, I do live in a rural farming area and recognize that some folks need them for pest control; lots of coyotes and foxes and chicken farming locally. I myself have lost three cats to coyotes.

Moreover many poorer people in our area hunt and get several months’ supply of meat from venison; this was the case with our former babysitter. We have a huge deer infestation that has wreaked havoc on our roads and cost lives. So I do recognize that for guns. I have no need for one though and have no plans for one. On the other hand, one of my sons does summer work in the field in grizzly country, to pay his way through university, so there is always a loaded rifle on his crew. It’s not just law enforcement or the military that need guns.

Yet my son, on that same crew, drives heavy-duty pickup trucks. The truck is registered, he is properly licensed, and he required proper safety and first aid training to be team lead in bush work.

So why on earth do Americans (and not a few Canadians) reject reasonable measures to register firearms and prove the competence and mental stability of those who wish to acquire them legally? Yes it’s true criminals mainly use stolen or contraband arms, but they also use stolen vehicles, yet nobody suggests we shouldn’t register motor vehicles.
I see why your son needs a firearm, and I agree with it, but like you, I don’t understand why people here in the US are so averse to registering any firearm if they plan on only using it legally. Sure, it can be a pain in the behind, but standing in line for a long time to renew a driver’s license is also a big pain in the behind.
 
If they inherited a car or bought one from a friend, wouldn’t they need a driver’s license before they could drive it on public roads? And if they had a medical or psychiatric condition that precluded getting a license, wouldn’t that be analogous to gifting a gun to someone who shouldn’t be able to get a firearms license? We do it all the time for cars, why not guns?

So why on earth do Americans (and not a few Canadians) reject reasonable measures to register firearms and prove the competence and mental stability of those who wish to acquire them legally?
Lily Bernans:
I don’t understand why people here in the US are so averse to registering any firearm if they plan on only using it legally
A couple of thoughts come to mind:

First of all, licensing and registration for automobiles speaks to usage (and associated infrastructure costs), not possession. A driver’s license is an assurance that a person has learned the rules of the road and is being licensed by the state as a safe driver. Similarly, vehicle registration reflects concerns of usage and is used in addressing infrastructure costs: the fees assessed contribute to the states’ costs of maintaining roads and highways, and the registrations allow the states to know how much they’re going to have to spend, based on the number of vehicles on the road.

Firearms registration data, on the other hand, has nothing to do with usage – it’s kept solely in order to keep track of the identities of firearms owners, ostensibly in order to aid in law enforcement. (Let’s be careful not to conflate ‘background checks’ with ‘firearms registration’ and its associated data retention.) However, the overwhelming majority of firearms owners never use their firearms in a way that’s illegal; the ones who do are the ones who don’t care if they’re caught (cf San Bernardino). On the other hand, those who do use their firearms illegally tend to obtain them illegally. So, we have a double whammy: registration only affects those whom the keepers of the data shouldn’t care to track, and fail to track those whom they really do have an interesting in caring about keeping tabs on.

Second, since its aim is registration of owners, not registration of usage, firearms registration is perceived as being the opening act to firearms confiscation. Think we’re in conspiracy theory territory? No – look no further than New York, where gun registration led to later confiscation.
 
The public would never have a chance against a heavily armed military force today, even with the weapons they are allowed to have under the law.
Our military is completely inadequate to occupy anything remotely close to the size of the USA. The Police have their hands full just dealing with criminals, with the support of citizens.

It’s erroneous to assume the Military would turn on citizens or that they have the manpower to win an extended occupation.
 
A couple of thoughts come to mind:

First of all, licensing and registration for automobiles speaks to usage (and associated infrastructure costs), not possession. A driver’s license is an assurance that a person has learned the rules of the road and is being licensed by the state as a safe driver. Similarly, vehicle registration reflects concerns of usage and is used in addressing infrastructure costs: the fees assessed contribute to the states’ costs of maintaining roads and highways, and the registrations allow the states to know how much they’re going to have to spend, based on the number of vehicles on the road.

Firearms registration data, on the other hand, has nothing to do with usage – it’s kept solely in order to keep track of the identities of firearms owners, ostensibly in order to aid in law enforcement. (Let’s be careful not to conflate ‘background checks’ with ‘firearms registration’ and its associated data retention.) However, the overwhelming majority of firearms owners never use their firearms in a way that’s illegal; the ones who do are the ones who don’t care if they’re caught (cf San Bernardino). On the other hand, those who do use their firearms illegally tend to obtain them illegally. So, we have a double whammy: registration only affects those whom the keepers of the data shouldn’t care to track, and fail to track those whom they really do have an interesting in caring about keeping tabs on.

Second, since its aim is registration of owners, not registration of usage, firearms registration is perceived as being the opening act to firearms confiscation. Think we’re in conspiracy theory territory? No – look no further than New York, where gun registration led to later confiscation.
Forgive my ignorance of the U.S., but is licencing of the firearms user done there, in order to prove competency to handle a firearm?

As for vehicle registration, don’t delude yourself into thinking the police doesn’t use this data to track or identify persons of interest.
 
Forgive my ignorance of the U.S., but is licencing of the firearms user done there, in order to prove competency to handle a firearm?
No. Merely for tracking purposes, if I understand correctly.
As for vehicle registration, don’t delude yourself into thinking the police doesn’t use this data to track or identify persons of interest.
Oh, certainly they do, once a crime has been committed. However, it isn’t the primary purpose for collecting the data.
 
No. Merely for tracking purposes, if I understand correctly.

Oh, certainly they do, once a crime has been committed. However, it isn’t the primary purpose for collecting the data.
I have nothing to hide. I don’t care how they use my data.
 
A rapid-fire, magazine-led automatic rifle designed for use by the military like the XM25. You may not have NRA sharp shooter medals like I do, but I think you know what an assault rifle is! People in broadcasting talk about them a lot.
Lily, you failed to support your point:
  • Auto fire rifles are already illegal to make and sell outside the Police and Military
  • XM25 is a proto-type grenade launcher that will only be available to the Military
No, ultra lethal bullets aren’t good or needed for self defense. They are designed to kill and cause the maximum amount of collateral damage, not wound, disable, or defend. Using them for self-defense could land anyone in prison, justifiably so.
I’m very confident there are no civillian bullets that are designed to cause collateral damage. Please give a specific example of these ‘ultra lethal’ bullets entering the civilian market.

Again, If you were thinking of the XM25, it’s a military only grenade launcher. Obama doesn’t have to make it illegal.
Edit: I hate the NRA! My uncle made me learn to shoot a gun. Hate them myself.
Don’t let your dislike of guns cloud your logical thinking.
 
I have nothing to hide. I don’t care how they use my data.
No, that’s not accurate. Those who do not exercise their 2nd amendment rights don’t “have nothing to hide”; rather, they simply have no data.

Nor do those who advocate gun control – those who might choose to hide behind undefined terms like “ultra-lethal bullets” and “assault rifles” – have nothing to hide; what they hide is their actual intent behind these vague terms… 🤷
 
This is the problem with this debate. Opponents of even common sense, reasonable gun control policies automatically jump to it meaning no guns at all. No one is proposing any such thing.
Define “common sense gun control”. Mine is prevention of those who are mentally impaired such that they present a risk to themselves and others, or those who have been convicted of a criminal offense of a violent nature.
common sense gun control should be targeted specifically at the above mentioned.
It is not common sense sense gun control to require ALL citizens to register firearms.
It is not common sense gun control to prohibit citizen who are on a no-fly list from owning or purchasing without due process / adjudication.
It is not common sense gun control to prohibit Social Security recipients from owning or purchasing simply because others help them process their benefits, without due process/ adjudication.

Common sense gun control ONLY targets those who are a risk to themselves and the greater society, and requires the government to prove, in court, that they are a risk. It is not common sense gun control to confiscate a constitutionally protected human and civil right without due process / adjudication. Instead, it is tyranny.

Jon
 
Forgive my ignorance of the U.S., but is licencing of the firearms user done there, in order to prove competency to handle a firearm?
I think you might say owning a firearm is a ‘right’ while driving a car is a ‘privilege’

You need a license (privilege) to hunt with a firearm but not to own it. In similar fashion, a drivers license confirm you are granted the privilege to drive, regardless of who owns the car.
As for vehicle registration, don’t delude yourself into thinking the police doesn’t use this data to track or identify persons of interest.
Yes, and this is why people have fought all efforts to register firearms. The current background check does not result in the firearm being registered in a database. There is a long history of registration leading to confiscation.
 
I may have to revisit my history. I don’t recall Lewis and Clark going into a school and killing 20 children or into a church and killing 9 people. Or into a movie theater to commit mass murders.
Blaming the constitutionally protected human and civil right to keep and bear arms is the same as blaming car ownership for auto fatalities. Neither cars nor guns are responsible for these deaths. Neither car owners nor gun owners at large, as a group, are responsible for these deaths.
Those deaths are the result of the actions of specific individuals. We do not eliminate or restrict the rights of individuals who are not personally responsible or guilty of the acts that caused those deaths, anymore than we blame all car owners for the deaths caused by specific drunk drivers.

Again, target those individuals who are the perpetrators of crimes, and not the general public. Common sense gun control ONLY targets those who have been proven to be a risk, and have been given due process.

Jon
 
I think you might say owning a firearm is a ‘right’ while driving a car is a ‘privilege’

You need a license (privilege) to hunt with a firearm but not to own it. In similar fashion, a drivers license confirm you are granted the privilege to drive, regardless of who owns the car.

Yes, and this is why people have fought all efforts to register firearms. The current background check does not result in the firearm being registered in a database.
It is also important to point out that drivers’ licenses are issued, not by the central government, but by the state government, since the constitution provides no mandate to the central government to do so.

Jon
 
If they inherited a car or bought one from a friend, wouldn’t they need a driver’s license before they could drive it on public roads? And if they had a medical or psychiatric condition that precluded getting a license, wouldn’t that be analogous to gifting a gun to someone who shouldn’t be able to get a firearms license? We do it all the time for cars, why not guns?

To be honest, this Canadian finds the US gun culture baffling. It seems to me common sense flies out the door in the US when it comes to guns.

While I have no particular love for guns and don’t own one or want one, I do live in a rural farming area and recognize that some folks need them for pest control; lots of coyotes and foxes and chicken farming locally. I myself have lost three cats to coyotes.

Moreover many poorer people in our area hunt and get several months’ supply of meat from venison; this was the case with our former babysitter. We have a huge deer infestation that has wreaked havoc on our roads and cost lives. So I do recognize that for guns. I have no need for one though and have no plans for one. On the other hand, one of my sons does summer work in the field in grizzly country, to pay his way through university, so there is always a loaded rifle on his crew. It’s not just law enforcement or the military that need guns.

Yet my son, on that same crew, drives heavy-duty pickup trucks. The truck is registered, he is properly licensed, and he required proper safety and first aid training to be team lead in bush work.

So why on earth do Americans (and not a few Canadians) reject reasonable measures to register firearms and prove the competence and mental stability of those who wish to acquire them legally? Yes it’s true criminals mainly use stolen or contraband arms, but they also use stolen vehicles, yet nobody suggests we shouldn’t register motor vehicles.
There is no constitutional right to drive a car. There are zillions of cases saying that’s a “privilege”, to be granted or not granted by the state, not a “right”.

It sounds to me as if Canadians trust their government a good deal more than Americans trust ours. When true constitutional rights in this country are sought to be abridged significantly by government, it raises suspicion that some administration or other will, by one device or another, make it nearly impossible to exercise the right. As mentioned before, look at the situation of the Little Sisters of the Poor. They didn’t want to participate in contraceptive and abortifacient coverage, so the administration sued them to make them do it. If a previously unquestioned right of conscience brings the weight of the government down on you, why should we trust it not to treat other rights the same way?

I recall John Stossel’s comment on how difficult it was for him to get a gun permit in New York, despite the fact that he receives death threats. N.Y. doesn’t make it “impossible” to have a gun, just so difficult that it’s nearly impossible. And yet, criminals in New York have guns. They always will. If they can bring tons of drugs into this country, they can bring guns.

As to the mentally ill, what level of mental illness do you want to use in order to prevent people from having guns? If a woman has an inborn serotonin uptake deficiency and takes Prozac for it, does she get to have a gun or not? If a person takes Wellbutrin for depression, does he? If a person is diagnosed with a borderline personality disorder, what about him? A schizophrenic who takes his meds religiously? A bipolar who takes hers? What about an obsessive-compulsive whose seeming only issue is folding his underwear in a particular way?

It’s already the law in a number of states, including mine, that a person convicted of a felony or even domestic assault can’t have a gun.

I don’t particularly doubt there are people who should not have guns because of mental disease or defect. But one wonders, in thinking about the non-terrorist shooters, whether the real answer is their being under custody in a mental institution. Unfortunately, because of a very liberal view of civil rights, almost nobody who needs it is actually institutionalized.

We all know there are about a million people on the “no fly list”, one of whom was Ted Kennedy at one time. How did they get there? Nobody seems to know, or admit to it. What we do know is that Janet Napolitano would have put all prolifers on a “terrorist watch list”, and might have done it for all we know. One of the present proposals is to ban gun ownership to all people on that list. Because of “political correctness”, its composition can’t be based on actual likelihoods, so we probably end up with more prolifers on it than people whose profile would never let them fly El Al.

It’s really about trust, or lack thereof. The Second Amendment is about trust and distrust. The constitution itself is about trust and distrust.

Personally, I don’t trust this administration for anything at all. If, as courts have ruled, it violates the constitution with regularity, why trust it with more power?
 
Lily, you failed to support your point:
  • Auto fire rifles are already illegal to make and sell outside the Police and Military
  • XM25 is a proto-type grenade launcher that will only be available to the Military
    I’m very confident there are no civillian bullets that are designed to cause collateral damage. Please give a specific example of these ‘ultra lethal’ bullets entering the civilian market.
Again, If you were thinking of the XM25, it’s a military only grenade launcher. Obama doesn’t have to make it illegal.
Don’t let your dislike of guns cloud your logical thinking.
My dislike for guns is not clouding my judgment.

AR-15s then. They are NOT illegal for the general public to buy. And Black Talon Ammo (what Oscar Pistorious used to kill Reeva Steenkamp) and teflon bullets designed to penetrate bullet proof vests. Why would any “hunter” need those unless he’s going to be hunting humans?

As for a constitutional right, as I said, I have no problem with anyone owning a musket, which is what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
 
As for a constitutional right, as I said, I have no problem with anyone owning a musket, which is what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
Did they? Those were the “state of the art” at the time. If they had wanted to limit people to primitive weapons, they could have prohibited everything but bows and arrows.

And they really weren’t “muskets”. Americans had rifles that were accurate for hundreds of yards; a fairly innovative weapon at the time as compared to the smooth-bore muskets the Brit soldiers characteristically carried. There were even “semi-automatic” weapons then, though they were rare.
 
My dislike for guns is not clouding my judgment.
No, but it is exposing your biases.
AR-15s then. They are NOT illegal for the general public to buy.
They’re semi-automatic (i.e., self-loading) rifles. So, then: “assault rifles” doesn’t really mean fully automatic rifles (e.g., machine guns), but even semi-automatics? Right. That’s what we thought. You’re advocating that a whole range of legal hunting rifles and self-defense rifles (let alone handguns) be made illegal. Thanks for clearing that up. 😉
And Black Talon Ammo (what Oscar Pistorious used to kill Reeva Steenkamp) and teflon bullets designed to penetrate bullet proof vests. Why would any “hunter” need those unless he’s going to be hunting humans?
Red herring. Hunting isn’t the only legal purpose to own a firearm. Self-defense is, too. Black Talon – and other hollow-point ammo – is meant for self-defense, which is a legal use of firearms. Care to try again? 😉
As for a constitutional right, as I said, I have no problem with anyone owning a musket, which is what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
Says you. However, that’s not what the Founding Fathers actually wrote. If they meant ‘muskets’, why didn’t they write “the right of the people to keep and bear muskets shall not be infringed”? Moreover, are you advocating for strict ‘original intent’? If so, then – given the text of the documents – there’s quite a bit of law on the books that you’re implicitly saying is unwarranted. If you really believe in ‘original intent’, then you can’t be for gun control. 🤷
 
Did they? Those were the “state of the art” at the time. If they had wanted to limit people to primitive weapons, they could have prohibited everything but bows and arrows.

And they really weren’t “muskets”. Americans had rifles that were accurate for hundreds of yards; a fairly innovative weapon at the time as compared to the smooth-bore muskets the Brit soldiers characteristically carried. There were even “semi-automatic” weapons then, though they were rare.
Please support your contention that there existed semi-automatic weapons during Revolutionary War times.

Thank you.
 
I think you might say owning a firearm is a ‘right’ while driving a car is a ‘privilege’.
That’s where we differ, it is not a right enshrined in our constitution. Jurisprudence does give us a right to self-defense but does not guarantee a means.

A more apt comparison may be with Switzerland where all men belong to a militia and keep a firearm, under very strict rules.
 
Did they? Those were the “state of the art” at the time. If they had wanted to limit people to primitive weapons, they could have prohibited everything but bows and arrows.

And they really weren’t “muskets”. Americans had rifles that were accurate for hundreds of yards; a fairly innovative weapon at the time as compared to the smooth-bore muskets the Brit soldiers characteristically carried. There were even “semi-automatic” weapons then, though they were rare.
The Girardoni Air Rifle could fire 22 shots in about a minute, I grant you, but there were only two of them in the US that I know of.

I have no problem with people owning a rifle to be used in a militia as the constitution makes clear, but I DO have a problem with a nation that allows extremists to buy AK-15s and Black Talon Ammo and shoot up a theatre, a holiday party, or a church.
 
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