Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

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I would suggest that doctors continue doing what they are doing. Everytime you go to a new doctor they ask if you have a living will or have given someone power of attorney over your health care. Why should they be paid extra for that? It is part of their job.
Counseling on the contents of end of life documents is a whole different kettle of fish from asking if you possess one.

Counseling, if done correctly, takes time - and doctors (like any other person who provides a service) need to get paid for their time.
 
I read the debates regarding the pros and cons of the counseling. IMHO, I have not found either side to be overly persuasive. I have not argued on this particular component of the law before(what one side calls “end of life counseling” and the other calls “death panels”). But yes, making an addition to a law by an entity other than congress, especially after the provision was intentionally removed from the bill prior to becoming law, is extremely troubling. You have no issues with this method of creating laws?
Not sure that I would really call changing the frequency of compensated end of life counseling from one-time to yearly, “creating law”…
 
Seekrz- Excellent point about Arizona and Gov Brewer refusing care for people-
You’ll notice that I’ve had no takers for that observation cuz of course only Obama and the Hemlock Society plan to kill people…‘party of life’ politicians are free to wreak whatever havoc they can and still retain their religio-political seal of approval.
 
You’ll notice that I’ve had no takers for that observation cuz of course only Obama and the Hemlock Society plan to kill people…‘party of life’ politicians are free to wreak whatever havoc they can and still retain their religio-political seal of approval.
Possibly you have better arguments than an “ad hominem” attack to make a point. It really serves no useful purpose to do this. I’m not a Republican. Been a Democrat all my life. But I can’t support a party that has abortion on demand in its platform and nearly every politician of which supports abortion, despite my wish that it hadn’t come to that. And I can’t help being less than fully trusting in an administration that promised to support abortion and has demonstrated that support by its actions. If they don’t care about killing babies, why on earth would anyone believe they would care about hastening the death of the elderly? No matter what one’s party might be, it isn’t the smart thing to do to trust this bunch ruling Washington right now.
 
Medicine is an art as well as a science. Any physician worth the gunpowder it would take to blow his nose will tell you that. Painting by the numbers might be mathematically precise, but it isn’t art by a long, long way.

I evidently didn’t express myself very well, and perhaps it’s impossible to do it very well in this context. But “evidence based medicine” is mechanistic, and intended to be mechanistic. If you talk to physicians very much (and I do, and with some of the best) you won’t find much admiration for it among those who really are the best. I could tell you stories about that, but it’s not truly germane, because that’s not the point anyway.

The point in bringing that up was to demonstrate that, indeed, there are very formulary and mechanistic methods of medical practice, and the present tendency of governments at every level is to require that. It cannot be prudently assumed that these annual, mostly well person “end of life” counseling sessions will be any less formulary and mechanistic than other formulary and mechanistic methods of practice and, indeed, the VA experience mentioned by me and others above, is as good a demonstration as one could ask for that a mechanistic and government-determined formulary thing is exactly what the government is going to require. And it will require that physicians (more likely contract NPs nurses and “counselors”) document that they did it “right”; that is, according to formula…
Interesting, where you chose to cut off your quote of my post. Medicine is art AND science and the modern scientific approach relies on statistical evidence. The only problem I can see with that is that this would not suit people who hate having to explain their actions or be held to standards - tough, they can go find other ways to make a living. If you ask me, there isn’t enough use being made of evidence-based medicine otherwise why would certain new (relatively unknown) drugs be simply thrown at people as soon as they are released when there exists multiple tried and true alternatives (backed by years of scientific literature) which could be tried first.

I’m glad you have a Catholic living will and not something “put out by the state”. Not sure where you got the idea that the state puts out living wills…If such is the cause you need to ensure that your lawyer isn’t secretly using an HHS template foisted on him by the government? 😉 You can never be too careful, you know.
 
Possibly you have better arguments than an “ad hominem” attack to make a point. It really serves no useful purpose to do this. I’m not a Republican. Been a Democrat all my life. But I can’t support a party that has abortion on demand in its platform and nearly every politician of which supports abortion, despite my wish that it hadn’t come to that. And I can’t help being less than fully trusting in an administration that promised to support abortion and has demonstrated that support by its actions. If they don’t care about killing babies, why on earth would anyone believe they would care about hastening the death of the elderly? No matter what one’s party might be, it isn’t the smart thing to do to trust this bunch ruling Washington right now.
Ad hominem? When we are discussing fictional death panels of people you don’t trust rather than the real death panels of their opponents? That’s the real irony.
 
The Catholic principle of subsidiary requires that this entire health care issue be handled at the lowest, most local level possible, most definately not at the national level, subject to the bureaucratization and corruption that happens when you mix large sums of money and politician located thousands of miles from their constituents. ANyone who is sincerely Catholic would have to reject any national health plan just on that premise. If not, one would question their loyalties, to the Magisterium or to a political ideology.
 
Personally, I am sickened by this. The elderly and dying deserve to have just as good of care as anyone else does, even if it is expensive. If they don’t want to die and want to pursue aggressive treatment then they should be able to do so and the government should pay for it if they are going to pay for any other health care. I say that either the government pay for care that is deemed medically necessary or stay out of health care altogether!
 
I suppose there will always be people - even today - whom I could get to rush about in a panic if I rode around in the dead of night, yelling “the British are coming, the British are coming”. That still would not make such an attack anything more than a figment of fevered imaginations.
Seekerz, given the support of the culture of death by the Obama administration in so many ways, why would you consider concern about the encouragement of euthenasia by Obama’s bureaucracies, the product of “fevered imaginations” ?

Ishii
 
I would really like to know where in the Constitution does the federal government get the authority to be involved in health care at all. Washington DC has no legitimate business making these types of decisions or even being involved in the conversation.
 
Interesting, where you chose to cut off your quote of my post. Medicine is art AND science and the modern scientific approach relies on statistical evidence. The only problem I can see with that is that this would not suit people who hate having to explain their actions or be held to standards - tough, they can go find other ways to make a living. If you ask me, there isn’t enough use being made of evidence-based medicine otherwise why would certain new (relatively unknown) drugs be simply thrown at people as soon as they are released when there exists multiple tried and true alternatives (backed by years of scientific literature) which could be tried first.

I’m glad you have a Catholic living will and not something “put out by the state”. Not sure where you got the idea that the state puts out living wills…If such is the cause you need to ensure that your lawyer isn’t secretly using an HHS template foisted on him by the government? 😉 You can never be too careful, you know.
Sorry I cut off part of your post. There wasn’t enough room unless I did. But I think I preserved enough of it to express the gist of it.

You don’t think there is ENOUGH use being made of evidence-based medicine? I can tell you have not discussed this with experienced doctors who have real expertise, and highly recommend that you do so, if possible, in formulating your opinions. Physicians who know their stuff are entirely aware of what “evidence based medicine” dictates. For goodness sake, you can get the “answers” according to “evidence based medicine” on Google. They are also aware that the “tried and true” can be made into mechanistic formulas that do not allow for real thinking. A computer can do most of what “evidence based medicine” is.

“Evidence based medicine” is derived in two ways: First, it mechanistically follows FDA approvals. So that, for example, a drug that was initially approved for depression, but which physicians have found, or analyzed from a drug-interactive judgment, is helpful for, say fibromyalgia (and there absolutely are drugs like that) or for autistic episodes (and there are those too) cannot be used for those latter purposes under “evidence based medicine” until and unless the FDA changes its literature on the drug.

Second: “Evidence based medicine” is actually an invention of a medical center in the UK. it’s a formula devised to make the British medical system work more cheaply, having peer-reviewed and approved journal articles as its foundation. It can make the practice of medicine easier in a way, because a computer or a nurse trained to use a computer can do it. It is also geared to cost savings. So, for example, if a child is taken to a doctor with a severe earache. No question that the child has an ear infection. Most physicians or NPs would, in such a case, and using their own judgment, prescribe an antibiotic for that due to the hazard of permanent damage. “Evidence based medicine” however, dictates that the treatment be pain relief only, and a waiting week before further consideration of antibiotic use. There is no particular therapeutic reason for that, but it can save money. The downsides, of course, are that the child may sustain avoidable damage and that the antibiotic use could reveal a more serious situation, such as MRSA, by excluding less serious agents as the culprits.

“Evidence based medicine” dictates that back pain, even with radicular symptoms, be treated as a “strain/sprain” only, unless there is a clear connection to a traumatic event thought capable of producing physical damage beyond a strain/sprain. The “formula” says pain relief and muscle relaxants are the only treatments allowable at that point. A neurosurgeon, for example, who is not constrained by “evidence based medicine” and is confronted with back pain and radicular symptoms, is going to rely fundamentally on his clinical exam and gained expertise, and if he thinks the radicular symptoms indicate nerve root compression, with signs suggesting disc herniation or a free disc fragment he’s going to order an MRI, possibly a CT, and likely the very same day. If the radiograph confirms his clinical diagnosis of nerve root compression,particularly if he thinks there is any hazard of an oncoming cauda equina syndrome, he’s going to seriously consider a surgical resolution right away. And he isn’t going to base any part of his treatment on whether there was a traumatic injury or not, because you can blow a disc or get a bulge capable of producing spinal stenosis simply sneezing, tying your shoe or turning over in bed. The downside, of course, in following the “formula” mechanistically is running the risk of more serious consequences such as paraplegia.

That’s not to say that “formulary approaches” have no merit at all. But they can cause perverse results, and not infrequently do. They tend strongly to “institutional approaches” which can be manipulated by government if government is imposing them. And, of course, they tend to take physician judgment, and certainly intuitive judgment, out of the equation. Of course, if this country opts for socialized medicine like Britain’s, medical treatment is almost certain to become more formulary and mechanistic, for three reasons. First, socialized medicine is expensive and tends to encourage overutilization, placing greater burdens on the medical system. Second, bureaucracies just don’t trust individual judgment about much of anything, and naturally tend to formulary solutions to everything. Third, governmental decisions are more subject to political influence than is private medical judgment. Need to reduce the medical budget a little? Well, maybe that child’s earache could be ignored for two weeks instead of just one.
 
The Catholic principle of subsidiary requires that this entire health care issue be handled at the lowest, most local level possible, most definately not at the national level, subject to the bureaucratization and corruption that happens when you mix large sums of money and politician located thousands of miles from their constituents. ANyone who is sincerely Catholic would have to reject any national health plan just on that premise. If not, one would question their loyalties, to the Magisterium or to a political ideology.
“Lowest, most local level possible”? Does that mean it is against Catholic principles for any entity that is not local to pay the doctor? Is it then wrong to be anything other than a “self pay” patient (that IS the most local level possible)?
 
Sorry I cut off part of your post. There wasn’t enough room unless I did. But I think I preserved enough of it to express the gist of it.

You don’t think there is ENOUGH use being made of evidence-based medicine? I can tell you have not discussed this with experienced doctors who have real expertise, and highly recommend that you do so, if possible, in formulating your opinions. Physicians who know their stuff are entirely aware of what “evidence based medicine” dictates. For goodness sake, you can get the “answers” according to “evidence based medicine” on Google. They are also aware that the “tried and true” can be made into mechanistic formulas that do not allow for real thinking. A computer can do most of what “evidence based medicine” is.

“Evidence based medicine” is derived in two ways: First, it mechanistically follows FDA approvals. So that, for example, a drug that was initially approved for depression, but which physicians have found, or analyzed from a drug-interactive judgment, is helpful for, say fibromyalgia (and there absolutely are drugs like that) or for autistic episodes (and there are those too) cannot be used for those latter purposes under “evidence based medicine” until and unless the FDA changes its literature on the drug.

Second: “Evidence based medicine” is actually an invention of a medical center in the UK. it’s a formula devised to make the British medical system work more cheaply, having peer-reviewed and approved journal articles as its foundation. It can make the practice of medicine easier in a way, because a computer or a nurse trained to use a computer can do it. It is also geared to cost savings. So, for example, if a child is taken to a doctor with a severe earache. No question that the child has an ear infection. Most physicians or NPs would, in such a case, and using their own judgment, prescribe an antibiotic for that due to the hazard of permanent damage. “Evidence based medicine” however, dictates that the treatment be pain relief only, and a waiting week before further consideration of antibiotic use. There is no particular therapeutic reason for that, but it can save money. The downsides, of course, are that the child may sustain avoidable damage and that the antibiotic use could reveal a more serious situation, such as MRSA, by excluding less serious agents as the culprits.

“Evidence based medicine” dictates that back pain, even with radicular symptoms, be treated as a “strain/sprain” only, unless there is a clear connection to a traumatic event thought capable of producing physical damage beyond a strain/sprain. The “formula” says pain relief and muscle relaxants are the only treatments allowable at that point. A neurosurgeon, for example, who is not constrained by “evidence based medicine” and is confronted with back pain and radicular symptoms, is going to rely fundamentally on his clinical exam and gained expertise, and if he thinks the radicular symptoms indicate nerve root compression, with signs suggesting disc herniation or a free disc fragment he’s going to order an MRI, possibly a CT, and likely the very same day. If the radiograph confirms his clinical diagnosis of nerve root compression,particularly if he thinks there is any hazard of an oncoming cauda equina syndrome, he’s going to seriously consider a surgical resolution right away. And he isn’t going to base any part of his treatment on whether there was a traumatic injury or not, because you can blow a disc or get a bulge capable of producing spinal stenosis simply sneezing, tying your shoe or turning over in bed. The downside, of course, in following the “formula” mechanistically is running the risk of more serious consequences such as paraplegia.

That’s not to say that “formulary approaches” have no merit at all. But they can cause perverse results, and not infrequently do. They tend strongly to “institutional approaches” which can be manipulated by government if government is imposing them. And, of course, they tend to take physician judgment, and certainly intuitive judgment, out of the equation. Of course, if this country opts for socialized medicine like Britain’s, medical treatment is almost certain to become more formulary and mechanistic, for three reasons. First, socialized medicine is expensive and tends to encourage overutilization, placing greater burdens on the medical system. Second, bureaucracies just don’t trust individual judgment about much of anything, and naturally tend to formulary solutions to everything. Third, governmental decisions are more subject to political influence than is private medical judgment. Need to reduce the medical budget a little? Well, maybe that child’s earache could be ignored for two weeks instead of just one.
These criticisms only apply if there is overdependence on evidence-based medicine (divorcing the art from the science, which is not at all what I advocate). Medicine is art AND science and the more we make it so, the less snake oil will be sold in this country.
 
Seekerz, given the support of the culture of death by the Obama administration in so many ways, why would you consider concern about the encouragement of euthenasia by Obama’s bureaucracies, the product of “fevered imaginations” ?

Ishii
I thought we were discussing non-existent death panels but you seem to want to discuss euthanasia. I agree there is a movement to push the latter in certain quarters. Since the idea for end of life counseling did not originate with Obama but with a “pro-life” government, I see no basis to be afraid of the service. Unless of course, you live in Arizona…
 
Personally, I am sickened by this. The elderly and dying deserve to have just as good of care as anyone else does, even if it is expensive. If they don’t want to die and want to pursue aggressive treatment then they should be able to do so and the government should pay for it if they are going to pay for any other health care. I say that either the government pay for care that is deemed medically necessary or stay out of health care altogether!
Is there something in the legislation that provides for refusal of care that is deemed medically necessary to someone who wants it? If there is, please provide the evidence. As for the government paying for it, I daresay, some posters in this thread would disagree.
 
Seekrz- since no one has taken you up on this, thought I would reference what the Republican Gov. of Arizona is up to:

Democrats push for Governor Brewer to restore medical transplant funding
: Dec 21, 2010 9:31 PM EST

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) – Budget cuts to Arizona’s Medicaid program have become a matter of life and death, after the state eliminated funding for medical transplants that people on the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCS) previously relied on.

Arizona is the first state in the nation to cut certain life-saving transplant surgeries, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing.

On Monday Governor Jan Brewer sent a letter to the new Republican leadership in Washington asking for an end to spending mandates, saying Arizona has one of the most generous Medicaid programs in the country but can no longer sustain it due to the loss of federal stimulus funding.

“The growth in Arizona Medicaid spending is a key cause of our state budget crisis and is unsustainable,” Brewer wrote to incoming House Speaker John Boehner. “The federal government needs to seriously consider its mandatory benefits package.”
 
Seekrz- since no one has taken you up on this, thought I would reference what the Republican Gov. of Arizona is up to:

Democrats push for Governor Brewer to restore medical transplant funding
: Dec 21, 2010 9:31 PM EST

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) – Budget cuts to Arizona’s Medicaid program have become a matter of life and death, after the state eliminated funding for medical transplants that people on the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCS) previously relied on.

Arizona is the first state in the nation to cut certain life-saving transplant surgeries, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing.

On Monday Governor Jan Brewer sent a letter to the new Republican leadership in Washington asking for an end to spending mandates, saying Arizona has one of the most generous Medicaid programs in the country but can no longer sustain it due to the loss of federal stimulus funding.

“The growth in Arizona Medicaid spending is a key cause of our state budget crisis and is unsustainable,” Brewer wrote to incoming House Speaker John Boehner. “The federal government needs to seriously consider its mandatory benefits package.”
Thank you.

So basically, we are finding out that it is not possible for everyone to have every possible medical treatment they desire with the present cost of health care being what it is and the government/insurance company coffers not being unlimited. Decisions, above the individual level, have to be made about how much can be provided (or costs have to be reined in). Now we get to the question of how these decisions are best made and who we can trust to make them…Before Arizona, I would have thought that to be a reflex choice on a forum like this one. Now I can see it isn’t quite so simple.
 
these criticisms only apply if there is overdependence on evidence-based medicine (divorcing the art from the science, which is not at all what i advocate). Medicine is art and science and the more we make it so, the less snake oil will be sold in this country.
bingo!
 
That’s what I’ve been saying all along or hadn’t you noticed?
C’mon now, let’s not be arch. 🙂

Notwithstanding the defects in “evidence based medicine”, my focus really wasn’t on evidence based medicine in and of itself, but on the tendency of government to do things that way when it comes to medical things. That being the case, it seemed inevitable to me that the “end of life conferences” for well persons (which will be most of them) will be “cookie cutter” as well, just as the VA “end of life” info was, and that the content was likely to be the same or similar.

But that, too, was subsidiary to my greater point, which was and is that I have reservations about this government providing the “boilerplate” for “end of life conferences”, because the importance it places on human life seems rather wanting in view of its approach to abortion, and the president’s demonstrated insoucience toward unwanted “infants born alive”; to octegenarians in need of hip replacements that would outlive them and to his own potential (but possibly unwanted) grandchildren.

If that doesn’t give you pause, then it doesn’t. It does me. Since, particularly against the background of all the far more serious issues facing this country, it’s an odd thing for the government to have an interest in, one does have to wonder about it with the current executive branch.
 
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