Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

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C’mon now, let’s not be arch. 🙂

Notwithstanding the defects in “evidence based medicine”, my focus really wasn’t on evidence based medicine in and of itself, but on the tendency of government to do things that way when it comes to medical things. That being the case, it seemed inevitable to me that the “end of life conferences” for well persons (which will be most of them) will be “cookie cutter” as well, just as the VA “end of life” info was, and that the content was likely to be the same or similar.

But that, too, was subsidiary to my greater point, which was and is that I have reservations about this government providing the “boilerplate” for “end of life conferences”, because the importance it places on human life seems rather wanting in view of its approach to abortion, and the president’s demonstrated insoucience toward unwanted “infants born alive”; to octegenarians in need of hip replacements that would outlive them and to his own potential (but possibly unwanted) grandchildren.

If that doesn’t give you pause, then it doesn’t. It does me. Since, particularly against the background of all the far more serious issues facing this country, it’s an odd thing for the government to have an interest in, one does have to wonder about it with the current executive branch.
I see nothing odd in the government having interest in end of life counseling. I seem to remember fervent government interest in the sad case of that poor woman in Florida (forget her name now) whose husband refused to let her parents care for her in the absence of documentation of her own wishes. If there’s a way to perhaps prevent repeat of such a tragedy, why would the people with the authority not exercise it?
 
Seekrz- since no one has taken you up on this, thought I would reference what the Republican Gov. of Arizona is up to:

Democrats push for Governor Brewer to restore medical transplant funding
: Dec 21, 2010 9:31 PM EST

TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) – Budget cuts to Arizona’s Medicaid program have become a matter of life and death, after the state eliminated funding for medical transplants that people on the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (AHCCS) previously relied on.

Arizona is the first state in the nation to cut certain life-saving transplant surgeries, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing.

On Monday Governor Jan Brewer sent a letter to the new Republican leadership in Washington asking for an end to spending mandates, saying Arizona has one of the most generous Medicaid programs in the country but can no longer sustain it due to the loss of federal stimulus funding.

“The growth in Arizona Medicaid spending is a key cause of our state budget crisis and is unsustainable,” Brewer wrote to incoming House Speaker John Boehner. “The federal government needs to seriously consider its mandatory benefits package.”
Nice spin, an article on this has been posted twice(now three times) on this forum by liberals trying to make republicans look bad.

I don’t recall word for word, nor do I care to look it up, but it was a Republican congressman who said it was an unintended consequence from legislation passed to try and save money. And they were working on trying to put the funding back in place.

Haven’t kept up on it since then though, but this was posted over a month ago.

Either way, if they couldn’t afford it, they couldn’t afford it. At the state level it’s a whole different ballgame. There are several extreme liberal state politicians in Vermont who wish to secede from the union and create their own socialist utopia. As a conservative, I’d be more than happy to let them go. I think any state should have that option.

It’s Arizona though, if you don’t like it, don’t live there. That’s the way it should be.
 
I see nothing odd in the government having interest in end of life counseling. I seem to remember fervent government interest in the sad case of that poor woman in Florida (forget her name now) whose husband refused to let her parents care for her in the absence of documentation of her own wishes. If there’s a way to perhaps prevent repeat of such a tragedy, why would the people with the authority not exercise it?
You mean Terri Schiavo? I guess you do. That case is troubling on a number of levels. But I don’t think it’s a stretch to think of it in terms of how ready some are to terminate a life based on the flimsiest of “expression of wishes”. As I understand it, she was starved and dehydrated (I guess she died of thirst in the end) based solely on her estranged husband’s assertion that she had said something to the effect that she wouldn’t want to “live like a vegetable” or something of that nature. And the judge accepted that as a basis for actively killing her. Then, of course, all sorts of people argued this and proposed that, and so on.

Now, when we think about well persons and expressions of their “end of life” wishes, how sure are we that well-considered (let alone religiously based) statements are going to be made upon encouragement by some physician (more likely nurses, NPs or “counselors” of some sort) to make some kind of statement, considering that none of the interlocutors are going to have any idea at all what the well person’s “end of life” conditions are going to be like, and further considering that the interlocutors’ views about it are going to differ as much as anyone else’s?

This very day I had occasion to talk to a couple who I would say are in their fifties somewhere. Both at least appeared to be healthy, and claimed to be. The woman told me (and her husband confirmed it for himself) that they are leery of the whole subject. The woman admitted that, at fifty-something, her thoughts about what she would want or not want are very different from her thoughts about it at age thirty. She expressed that she did not know how she would see it if she was 70. I hazarded that her thinking about, say, CPR at age 70 would likely depend on how healthy or unhealthy a 70-year-old she turned out to be, and why she needed CPR in the first place. Both of them agreed with that.

Now, some might say that demonstrates the merit of older people having annual “end of life conferences” with whoever it is that turns out to actually deliver the “service”. But I am inclined to think the whole situation can turn around on a dime and that well people can have no reasonable guidance at any age because they cannot address specifics of care and can only make very general declarations.

Now, when one makes general sorts of declarations (and I have seen many) they are almost always sufficiently ambiguous to allow the treater to impose his/her own philosophical or moral leanings on them. They can’t be anything else, because the well person can’t address an unknown condition or unknown methods of treatment with anything resembling precision the way, say, a person with pancreatic cancer or congestive heart failure or third stage renal disease can. But those persons are necessarily going to be counseled by their physicians anyway as to the course and outcomes and methods of treatment, without any new government program.

Because treaters vary widely in their views of the “value of life”, ambiguity and imprecision can be deadly. Now, if a “living will” prepared in the only ways a well person can actually prepare one (with generalities) is presented and encouraged in the medical setting, it will become part of a person’s chart just the same as it will if presented to a doctor or hospital directly. From that point on, the generalities essentially leave a lot up to the mores of the practitioner, and there is no particular reason to believe such people will have any greater respect for life than does, say, Kathleen Sebelius.

I mentioned being involved in a seminar for medical people; future practitioners being trained in two universities and one technical college, and also people studying in the social service area. It was very obvious that beliefs about what should motivate a termination decision vary widely. Most appalling to me was the expressed belief by not a few, including the physician panelist, that religious precepts have no place in the process at all. Keep in mind, those are the very people who will, in the future be among the “end of life counselors”.

It is inconceivable to me that placing this whole question into secular hands and providing “counseling” by people who have very different beliefs about the most basic of things, can be anything but morally chaotic in application. And to me at least, while getting the government involved in it seems so important to this administration that it ignores congressional rejection of that involvement, I do not have a good feeling about it at all. Is urging on people decisions how one ends one’s life really a proper function of government, or is it simply the reflection of an ideological position of those in power? It’s very hard for me to believe it is not the latter.
 
You mean Terri Schiavo? I guess you do. That case is troubling on a number of levels. But I don’t think it’s a stretch to think of it in terms of how ready some are to terminate a life based on the flimsiest of “expression of wishes”. As I understand it, she was starved and dehydrated (I guess she died of thirst in the end) based solely on her estranged husband’s assertion that she had said something to the effect that she wouldn’t want to “live like a vegetable” or something of that nature. And the judge accepted that as a basis for actively killing her. Then, of course, all sorts of people argued this and proposed that, and so on…
(shortened for reasons of space)

Remember, one does not have to decide anything before the fact, if one chooses not to. I could simply say, it’s hard to know what I’ll want and select someone whose judgment I trust, to decide for me in case I’m not in a condition to do so.

If you are so leary of doctors’ motivations and beliefs (and I’m not saying you shouldn’t be), what makes you see lawyers as any more trustworthy (or knowledgeable) in these matters? I have seen a legal document where an elderly woman stated that if she broke her hip she wanted neither IV fluids nor antibiotics. To me, that was insane because neither of these are extraordinary measures! How would a lawyer know whether either treatment is indicated or necessary in someone with such a diagnosis?

Furthermore, wouldn’ t it be the same doctors counseling when the woman does turn 70 and has an illness? Only difference then might be the stress and discomfort under which (if she is in control of her faculties at all) she will be asked to make those decisions. In this state (and in the case of a fractured hip, possibly under the influence of narcotics) would she not even be more susceptible to suggestion? I had an elderly uncle lie incapacitated for months with a broken hip - we all thought he’d never be mobile again - and today he is able to walk. If he had had to decide in the gloom of total and seemingly permanent incapacitation, what might he have chosen?
 
I would really like to know where in the Constitution does the federal government get the authority to be involved in health care at all. Washington DC has no legitimate business making these types of decisions or even being involved in the conversation.
You’re deliberately oversimplifying the matter. Where in the constitution does the federal government get the authority to deliver our mail? Where in the constitution does the federal government get the authority to institute medicare or social security?

You’ve also brought up subsidiary. On the surface it does seem like subsidiary is relevant here. If people can’t afford their health care, then those immediately around them should provide it. There are some important reasons why this point of view is not valid.

First and foremost is the fact that we have tens of millions of citizens in the US who lack access to the health care that they need. This is not new. There was no sudden catastrophe that deprived them of their health care all at once. Their numbers likely grew during the recent economic downturn, but the recession did not create the problem. The question is: why hasn’t subsidiary take care of these people? The answer is that the people local to those without health care have failed to solve the problem, as have local and state governments. What does subsidiary recommend we do in such situations? Seek help from the next largest entity.
 
Politifact takes the category for joke of the year.
pulitzer.org/citation/2009-National-Reporting

"For a distinguished example of reporting on national affairs, in print or online or both, Ten thousand dollars ($10,000).

Awarded to the St. Petersburg Times Staff for “PolitiFact,” its fact-checking initiative during the 2008 presidential campaign that used probing reporters and the power of the World Wide Web to examine more than 750 political claims, separating rhetoric from truth to enlighten voters. "
 
pulitzer.org/citation/2009-National-Reporting

"For a distinguished example of reporting on national affairs, in print or online or both, Ten thousand dollars ($10,000).

Awarded to the St. Petersburg Times Staff for “PolitiFact,” its fact-checking initiative during the 2008 presidential campaign that used probing reporters and the power of the World Wide Web to examine more than 750 political claims, separating rhetoric from truth to enlighten voters. "
Ok, you got me…the joke of the year award should go to the pulitzer prize.
 
I see nothing odd in the government having interest in end of life counseling. I seem to remember fervent government interest in the sad case of that poor woman in Florida (forget her name now) whose husband refused to let her parents care for her in the absence of documentation of her own wishes. If there’s a way to perhaps prevent repeat of such a tragedy, why would the people with the authority not exercise it?
It is none of government’s business being involved in “end of life counseling”. Period.
 
You’re deliberately oversimplifying the matter. Where in the constitution does the federal government get the authority to deliver our mail?

Article I, Section 8, Clause 7 of the United States Constitution, known as the Postal Clause or the Postal Power, empowers Congress “To establish Post Offices and post Roads”.

Where in the constitution does the federal government get the authority to institute medicare or social security?

It doesn’t. Therefore they, not being expressed, enumerated powers, are both unconstitutional.

You’ve also brought up subsidiary. On the surface it does seem like subsidiary is relevant here. If people can’t afford their health care, then those immediately around them should provide it. There are some important reasons why this point of view is not valid.

First and foremost is the fact that we have tens of millions of citizens in the US who lack access to the health care that they need. This is not new. There was no sudden catastrophe that deprived them of their health care all at once. Their numbers likely grew during the recent economic downturn, but the recession did not create the problem. The question is: why hasn’t subsidiary take care of these people? The answer is that the people local to those without health care have failed to solve the problem, as have local and state governments. What does subsidiary recommend we do in such situations? Seek help from the next largest entity.

Subsidiarity is a principle, not a policy. The truth of the matter is that America worked perfectly fine 100 years ago under the principle of subsidiarity. The Progressives under Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Nixon, and the current tyrant have work so hard to disempower individuals and local communities from actually being able to implement subsidiarity-type support groups (faith-based organizations and the like) that in all practicality, nationalization of charity is the only “lawful” option left. The methodology is simple, create disunity among people, remove the incentive to help your neighbor, and then create grandiose social programs that cause people to turn away from their faith and their neighbor and turn to the all-powerful central government to solve all their problems.
 
What I find amazing about this discussion, is the differences in people’s arguments. I.e. if olne is pro life, then it would be consistent that people would be able to receive medical care. The clear fact, is that medicare and medicaid have allowed millions to live longer lives. How many of us know children who are profoundly handicapped who would have just died a short time earlier? And though many like to look nostalgically at the past when neighbors and communities took after their own, that was not the case necessarily. Especially given that end of life care costs more than the years of care earlier- people in CCUs and ICUs only by the grace of medicare funds.

But for these two programs, the death rates of the elderly and profoundly handicapped would be drastically higher. Of course a big part of this is the quality of medical advancement through technology, but it has to be paid for, and before the 60s, most elders could not afford it.

(Anyway, I appreciate especially Mrs. Obama’s focus on health and fitness and developing good habits in the young. It has been frustrating to see the decades long in place federal lunch guidelines requiring meals such as buttered pasta to be served with pizza at lunch. )

In any case, the bottom line is that doctors will be reimbursed for spending time to review end of life decisions with their patients= it is a bookkeeping matter rather than anything else that has been stated.

If anyone has issues with anyone being refused care, allowed to die, etc, they should be up at arms over private insurers. And most of us have dealt with these things in our own families. Taking care of these matters ahead of time will help alleviate heartbreak for all.
 
It is none of government’s business being involved in “end of life counseling”. Period.
I see you still haven’t responded to what (in your estimation) constitutes the “most local level” at which medical care should be paid for. Would that not be in fact be, not the state or the insurance company, but the individual pocket? Then if individual pockets are empty…too bad?

What truly amazes me is how many theories and ideologies have been thought up to justify the kind of selfishness (me, mine, my over you and yours) that is totally opposed to anything Christ taught in the Gospels.
 
(shortened for reasons of space)

Remember, one does not have to decide anything before the fact, if one chooses not to. I could simply say, it’s hard to know what I’ll want and select someone whose judgment I trust, to decide for me in case I’m not in a condition to do so.

If you are so leary of doctors’ motivations and beliefs (and I’m not saying you shouldn’t be), what makes you see lawyers as any more trustworthy (or knowledgeable) in these matters? I have seen a legal document where an elderly woman stated that if she broke her hip she wanted neither IV fluids nor antibiotics. To me, that was insane because neither of these are extraordinary measures! How would a lawyer know whether either treatment is indicated or necessary in someone with such a diagnosis?

Furthermore, wouldn’ t it be the same doctors counseling when the woman does turn 70 and has an illness? Only difference then might be the stress and discomfort under which (if she is in control of her faculties at all) she will be asked to make those decisions. In this state (and in the case of a fractured hip, possibly under the influence of narcotics) would she not even be more susceptible to suggestion? I had an elderly uncle lie incapacitated for months with a broken hip - we all thought he’d never be mobile again - and today he is able to walk. If he had had to decide in the gloom of total and seemingly permanent incapacitation, what might he have chosen?
I’m not saying lawyers are any less varied in their mores, prejudices and philosophies than doctors are. However, lawyers are specifically trained (and ethically enjoined) to leave their own notions out of such things, whereas doctors are not. The “lawyer part” is in exploring the language and making dead certain the individual knows what words and phrases mean in the legal context, and which ones are vague and/or ambiguous, and really don’t. By and large, doctors don’t know that.

On the other hand, doctors will have a pretty good idea about disease outcomes and processes where lawyers generally don’t. But they can’t recite the whole of the Merck Manual for a well person in one of these sessions. To have any meaning, the sessions would need to address some particular known process, and doctors do that right now anyway.

Neither doctors nor lawyers will necessarily have a sufficient background to know, for instance, what things are approved or forbidden by a particular religion.

So, these things are properly multidisciplinary, but simply setting up a “free once-a-year-end-of-life-counseling-session” with a physician (more likely some counseling outsource) for well persons isn’t. Yet, this is supposed to somehow result in a better state of knowledge and clear-headed action on the part of the patient. I really don’t like the “secularization” of this, but I am leery most of all of a process in which some kind of governmentally-devised “formulation” to be delivered by someone whose mores and philosophies cannot be known, precisely because it is a very fertile ground for suggestion that almost inevitably will be ideologically or politically driven.

And, too, why should one think of this as a government function at all? Because some people might like it? Well, they would probably like a free turkey on Thanksgiving too, but that isn’t adequate reason for the government to include it in the concept of “governance”.

I had to be amused in the seminar when I repeated one of my half-joking lines there, which is “putting a living will in your chart is potentially putting your life in the hands of a third shift charge nurse somewhere.” It was kind of funny because one of the panelists piped up that he is, in fact, a third shift charge nurse. He said it wouldn’t usually be the case, but he had to admit that sometimes it certainly could be that way.
 
What I find amazing about this discussion, is the differences in people’s arguments. I.e. if olne is pro life, then it would be consistent that people would be able to receive medical care. The clear fact, is that medicare and medicaid have allowed millions to live longer lives. How many of us know children who are profoundly handicapped who would have just died a short time earlier? And though many like to look nostalgically at the past when neighbors and communities took after their own, that was not the case necessarily. Especially given that end of life care costs more than the years of care earlier- people in CCUs and ICUs only by the grace of medicare funds.

But for these two programs, the death rates of the elderly and profoundly handicapped would be drastically higher. Of course a big part of this is the quality of medical advancement through technology, but it has to be paid for, and before the 60s, most elders could not afford it.

(Anyway, I appreciate especially Mrs. Obama’s focus on health and fitness and developing good habits in the young. It has been frustrating to see the decades long in place federal lunch guidelines requiring meals such as buttered pasta to be served with pizza at lunch. )

In any case, the bottom line is that doctors will be reimbursed for spending time to review end of life decisions with their patients= it is a bookkeeping matter rather than anything else that has been stated.

If anyone has issues with anyone being refused care, allowed to die, etc, they should be up at arms over private insurers. And most of us have dealt with these things in our own families. Taking care of these matters ahead of time will help alleviate heartbreak for all.
Setting nostalgia aside, the hefty end of end-of-life care, in the aggregate, is long-term intensive care; nursing home care. Lots of abuses in it, but even if those are stripped out, it’s tremendously expensive.If you look at the charts, some of them are in the “revolving door” between the hospital and the nursing home. They go downhill, get “pumped back up” in the hospital and go back. But most of them aren’t. Most of them take meds of some kind, but they’re usually pretty mainstream stuff. What is so costly is the actual physical care and the facility itself. So, what do we do about that? Let them get horrific bedsores? Do we let their MRSA (and there’s a whole lot of that in nursing homes) go untreated until their skin simply rots off and they die of dehydration? Do we take their Metoprolol away so they have a stroke and maybe end up needing even more care than before if the stroke isn’t fatal? Do we just not give them a drink of water?

The answer creeps into mind almost no matter what. About the only way to end the lives of many, if not most, of them is to take active measures to kill them. How far away from the “death by neglect” remedy Terri Schiavo underwent or the “poison pill” remedy Oregon seems to have adopted are we nationally? My guess is that we’re not far from it.

But addressing your post, I can’t see any harm in Mrs. Obama suggesting less fatty foods for school lunches, but I might add that they were at least as fatty or worse when I was in high school, long ago. (most everyone in grade school brought their lunches) And yet, almost nobody was obese. Why? Well, I don’t know of any reliable study on the subject, but I could make some tentative observations about it. First, the diets at home were likely different. Second, “junk food” outside mealtimes simply wasn’t all that accessible to us because we didn’t have the money to buy very much of it and our parents didn’t stock it at home. Third, PE was mandatory, daily and very rigorous, for both boys and girls. The likelihood is that we ate more calories and fat at school meals then than kids do now, but that we “burned it off”. That part of the daily life of a kid is very different now, and perhaps Mrs. Obama might do better to see about reinstating the huge caloric burnoff we used to undergo.

I will say too that even in grade school, we spent almost the entire recess periods and most of the noon hour running; girls and boys both. The nuns invariably had us play things that required a lot of physical activity, and you couldn’t “get out of it”. It’s possible, of course, that their motivation was actually to use up our excessive energy. (nobody took Ritalin for “hyperactivity” then) Grade schools really don’t do that now the way they used to.

There is not a lot of difference between the expenditures of private insurers for “end of life” care than there is for the government programs. In fact, I have seen private insurers pay for things the government normally won’t. I have seen private insurers, for instance, pay for the more effective cadaver-derived human growth hormone for patients with “empty sella”, instead of the synthetic substitutes, whereas Medicare absolutely won’t. Medicare, Medicaid and government health plans are all administered by private insurers anyway, and there isn’t a whole lot of difference in what they’ll pay for and what they won’t. VA, I’ll say, can sometimes be better than any of the others if the condition is service related.
 
I see you still haven’t responded to what (in your estimation) constitutes the “most local level” at which medical care should be paid for. Would that not be in fact be, not the state or the insurance company, but the individual pocket? Then if individual pockets are empty…too bad?
It’s great to look at the federal government as an entity that has pockets so big they will never be empty eh?
What truly amazes me is how many theories and ideologies have been thought up to justify the kind of selfishness (me, mine, my over you and yours) that is totally opposed to anything Christ taught in the Gospels.
What truly amazes me is how you assume that those who promote limited government are selfishly hoarding theirs and not somehow doing the “Christian” thing and promoting that they freely give not only theirs but what others have as well. As if we can set some sort of standard rule that applies to everyone equally.

I’m on the fine line of have not and have some want more. My children will not have much, if any of a college education fund. And they would have it a little bit better if everyone who thought it was ok for the government to take other people’s money and blow it and waste it and blind those who think they are doing the “christian” thing by making them believe they are doing something we can not do for ourselves.

But, put your nose up and pretend your somehow better than me because you promote a big government in the name of Christianity. I’ll keep plugging along and hope that someday you aren’t taking 50 percent of my income as well because it’s the Christian thing to do.
 
It’s great to look at the federal government as an entity that has pockets so big they will never be empty eh?

What truly amazes me is how you assume that those who promote limited government are selfishly hoarding theirs and not somehow doing the “Christian” thing and promoting that they freely give not only theirs but what others have as well. As if we can set some sort of standard rule that applies to everyone equally.

I’m on the fine line of have not and have some want more. My children will not have much, if any of a college education fund. And they would have it a little bit better if everyone who thought it was ok for the government to take other people’s money and blow it and waste it and blind those who think they are doing the “christian” thing by making them believe they are doing something we can not do for ourselves.

But, put your nose up and pretend your somehow better than me because you promote a big government in the name of Christianity. I’ll keep plugging along and hope that someday you aren’t taking 50 percent of my income as well because it’s the Christian thing to do.
I so love it when you guys tag team…I was addressing specific views in a specific post which the poster, even though he returned to the thread since, has declined to defend.
 
I so love it when you guys tag team…I was addressing specific views in a specific post which the poster, even though he returned to the thread since, has declined to defend.
Nothing specific about your comment, of which I was referring.

I’ll quote what you said:
What truly amazes me is how many theories and ideologies have been thought up to justify the kind of selfishness (me, mine, my over you and yours) that is totally opposed to anything Christ taught in the Gospels.
Where did you specifically refer to another post? Your comment looks awfully broad brushed to me. Or…did I…wait no, you wouldn’t admit to it if I did so I won’t go there.

Tell me, how many ideologies have been thought up to promote “selfishness” vs. the number of ideologies that promote a collective pot for everyone to put their hand in?
 
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