Obama Told: Change Your Mind on Abortion b/c Unborn Children Feel Pain

[tammy57]

sojo:

Many thanks for so eloquently stating the true meaning of “choice”. I have been trying to illustrate the possibilities within the pro-choice movement; your post shares a loving and determined mindset that conveys the very best possible outcome for everyone involved. God bless you and your family. I wish you many happy days and decades together.

*"I am often asked to describe the experience of raising a child with a disability - to try to help people who have not shared that unique experience to understand it, to imagine how it would feel. It’s like this…

When you’re going to have a baby, it’s like planning a fabulous vacation trip - to Italy. You buy a bunch of guide books and make your wonderful plans. The Coliseum. The Michelangelo David. The gondolas in Venice. You may learn some handy phrases in Italian. It’s all very exciting.

After months of eager anticipation, the day finally arrives. You pack your bags and off you go. Several hours later, the plane lands. The stewardess comes in and says, ‘Welcome to Holland.’

‘Holland?!?’ you say. ‘What do you mean Holland?? I signed up for Italy! I’m supposed to be in Italy. All my life I’ve dreamed of going to Italy.’

But there’s been a change in the flight plan. They’ve landed in Holland and there you must stay.

The important thing is that they haven’t taken you to a horrible, disgusting, filthy place, full of pestilence, famine and disease. It’s just a different place.

So you must go out and buy new guide books. And you must learn a whole new language. And you will meet a whole new group of people you would never have met.

It’s just a different place. It’s slower-paced than Italy, less flashy than Italy. But after you’ve been there for a while and you catch your breath, you look around… and you begin to notice that Holland has windmills . . . and Holland has tulips. Holland even has Rembrandts.

But everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy . . . and they’re all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you will say ‘Yes, that’s where I was supposed to go. That’s what I had planned.’

And the pain of that will never, ever, ever, ever go away . . . because the loss of that dream is a very, very significant loss.

But . . . if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn’t get to Italy, you may never be free to enjoy the very special, the very lovely things . . . about Holland.
~ c1987 by Emily Perl Kingsley. All rights reserved"*

tammy57

 

[Mamanurse]

Since there seems to be a particular poster on here who loves to stick her head in the sand when it comes to this issue of “womens rights”, then why don’t we just give up the judicial system all together! If I believed like you ,Tammy something, I would be looking away and sticking my head in the sand for every legal or immoral wrongdoing then. Why punish a man for beating his wife? Why should he go to jail for stealing something that wasn’t his? Why do we have any justice system at all then if its their right? If its none of your business then why are on here debating my beliefs? It seems to me that you only call it none of your business when you don’t want to really formulate your own opinion on abortion…not just “womens choice”, but abortion.

The whole thing of when a fetus can actually “feel” pain is just ridiculous; just because a quad cannot feel pain in their extremities, then why don’t we just cut them off? What is the purpose of hands and feet when you cannot use them?

When upon rushing to a scene of an accident what is the very first thing an EMT will do?? Check for a heartbeat, right? The fetus’ cells begin beating as early as eight days after conception. The actual heart is forming at week five and by week six the heart is pumping blood.

Abortion stops a beating heart…

 

[JButky]

By “frank and honest”, I mean giving children the facts about their sexuality and how their bodies work without feeling or imparting shame or anxiety.

But you have left out the part of the purpose of their sexuality and where it is derived for that purpose. If you are going to educate, then educate. That’s like stopping after telling a kid you can use your legs to jump off a cliff. But leaving out, “you need to use a parachute…”

Any woman who is pregnant and does not want to be does not need our respect or permission to have the baby, raise it, give it away, or terminate the pregnancy.

Well you have a non-sequitur there. The first 3 follow logically in preservation of human life and respect for a human person. The 4th, “terminate the pregnancy” (AKA kill the baby) violates the preservation of life and respect for a human person and is at odds with your other “choices”.

There are choices yes, but one should never be abortion as you have described for the reasons I have given. It is not “imparting shame”,etc. as you have described it. It is simply informing them to properly make an acceptable choice.

The whole description of pain is there to just bring you closer to the full reality of the consequences of an evil choice.

Joe B

 

[AnimalGal]

This is fascinating! Pro-choice is all-encompassing, and the term is usually pounced upon with great fervor by pro-lifers, who have come to believe that “pro-choice” means “pro-abortion” only.

I support CHOICE, whether it be selecting abortion or deciding to remain chaste or choosing to give a child up for adoption. The term “choice”, when used intelligently, does not ignore any options. It stands as “an act of selecting or making a decision when **faced with two or more possibilities.” **

tammy57

Ditto! Very well said. However stand by for the name calling…

 

[tammy57]

Ditto! Very well said. However stand by for the name calling…

Thanks, AnimalGal, for your functioning mind Very refreshing in a sea of … never mind, no name-calling tonight!

Mama something: I don’t expect you to understand the way I see this world. If you feel you must have a judgment and an opinion on every single event that transpires from this moment on until you are in the ground, have at it. I have no problem with the judicial system being in place; I just don’t find it necessary to spend precious time in abject horror over things that are beyond my control. And I have no business attempting to control the conscience of any woman who is considering having an abortion. Pray for her, maybe; waving a placard with an 18-week-old aborted fetus in her face and screaming “Baby Killer!” are not on my agenda and never will be. I think God must be sad when He sees this kind of behavior from people who think they’re earning jewels in their heavenly crowns by threatening and chastising a woman already in the grip of fear and anxiety. Is it so difficult for you to admit that the only judge is God Himself, and He is fully capable of assessing the situation in its fullness and assigning the appropriate consequences for this woman’s actions? I just don’t think He needs all that “help.”

I am not debating your beliefs, per se; in fact, the question you bring up about fetal pain was not my topic. I was merely responding to a poster who brought up the question of alleged fetal pain.

I have indeed formed my own opinion on abortion. I formed it on June 8, 1971, when I walked into a facility on the east coast and experienced the abortion of my 13-week-old fetus. From that vantage point I can tell you that I have given tremendous thought to the idea of choice for pregnant women. Choice is not another word for abortion. It is a hallway with many doors to walk through. Each woman must choose her own door. Most choose live birth. Fantastic. Some choose birth and decide to put their children up for adoption. We hope this will turn out well. Some know they will have a child with disabilities or genetic anomalies, but choose to continue with the pregnancies anyway. These are the women earning the jewels in their crowns. And then there are those who abort their pregnancies. Fifty million abortions in the U.S. now? That’s fifty million consciences, fifty million decisions arrived at over various degrees of thought, prayer, agony. You, Mama something, don’t have to like it. No one is asking you to like it. It’s a fact, it’s a legal procedure, and you don’t have any personal consequence for these abortions. I’m sure with fifty million sinners going straight to hell, there will be more room in heaven for you to stretch out.

“When upon rushing to a scene of an accident what is the very first thing an EMT will do?? Check for a heartbeat, right?” Only if it appears that an injured party is not breathing. Sometimes their first order is to clear away unnecessary personnel.

JButky: The women who choose abortion are making an acceptable choice: acceptable to them. Whatever they have to sort out with God, if they even believe in God, they will sort out. Why is it that you are under the impression that this person’s private decision should be under your watchful eye? It’s none of your business.

Everything that I meant to include in my post was included, with one possible exception: “You need to use a condom.”

Now, what am I forgetting? Oh, this: Any woman who is pregnant does not need our respect or permission to:
Have the baby
Raise the baby
Give the baby away
Similarly, Any woman who is pregnant and does not want to be does not need our respect or permission to undergo:
Vacuum aspiration, medical abortion, dilatation and evacuation procedure, labor induction, prostaglandin labor induction, saline infusion, hysterotomy, or dilatation and extraction.

That should take care of the non sequitur. Thanks for pointing that out.

"It is not ‘imparting shame’ … " Really. Have you ever seen vehement protesters in action?

tammy57

 

[Mamanurse]

Thanks, AnimalGal, for your functioning mind Very refreshing in a sea of … never mind, no name-calling tonight!

Mama something: I don’t expect you to understand the way I see this world. If you feel you must have a judgment and an opinion on every single event that transpires from this moment on until you are in the ground, have at it. I have no problem with the judicial system being in place; I just don’t find it necessary to spend precious time in abject horror over things that are beyond my control. And I have no business attempting to control the conscience of any woman who is considering having an abortion. Pray for her, maybe; waving a placard with an 18-week-old aborted fetus in her face and screaming “Baby Killer!” are not on my agenda and never will be. ** I think God must be sad when He sees this kind of behavior from people who think they’re earning jewels in their heavenly crowns by threatening and chastising a woman already in the grip of fear and anxiety**. Is it so difficult for you to admit that the only judge is God Himself, and He is fully capable of assessing the situation in its fullness and assigning the appropriate consequences for this woman’s actions? I just don’t think He needs all that “help.”

I am not debating your beliefs, per se; in fact, the question you bring up about fetal pain was not my topic. I was merely responding to a poster who brought up the question of alleged fetal pain.

I have indeed formed my own opinion on abortion. I formed it on June 8, 1971, when I walked into a facility on the east coast and experienced the abortion of my 13-week-old fetus. From that vantage point I can tell you that I have given tremendous thought to the idea of choice for pregnant women. Choice is not another word for abortion. It is a hallway with many doors to walk through. Each woman must choose her own door. Most choose live birth. Fantastic. Some choose birth and decide to put their children up for adoption. We hope this will turn out well. Some know they will have a child with disabilities or genetic anomalies, but choose to continue with the pregnancies anyway. These are the women earning the jewels in their crowns. And then there are those who abort their pregnancies. Fifty million abortions in the U.S. now? That’s fifty million consciences, fifty million decisions arrived at over various degrees of thought, prayer, agony. You, Mama something, don’t have to like it. No one is asking you to like it. It’s a fact, it’s a legal procedure, and you don’t have any personal consequence for these abortions. I’m sure with fifty million sinners going straight to hell, there will be more room in heaven for you to stretch out.

“When upon rushing to a scene of an accident what is the very first thing an EMT will do?? Check for a heartbeat, right?” Only if it appears that an injured party is not breathing. Sometimes their first order is to clear away unnecessary personnel.

JButky: The women who choose abortion are making an acceptable choice: acceptable to them. Whatever they have to sort out with God, if they even believe in God, they will sort out. Why is it that you are under the impression that this person’s private decision should be under your watchful eye? It’s none of your business.

Everything that I meant to include in my post was included, with one possible exception: “You need to use a condom.”

Now, what am I forgetting? Oh, this: Any woman who is pregnant does not need our respect or permission to:
Have the baby
Raise the baby
Give the baby away
Similarly, Any woman who is pregnant and does not want to be does not need our respect or permission to undergo:
Vacuum aspiration, medical abortion, dilatation and evacuation procedure, labor induction, prostaglandin labor induction, saline infusion, hysterotomy, or dilatation and extraction.

That should take care of the non sequitur. Thanks for pointing that out.

"It is not ‘imparting shame’ … " Really. Have you ever seen vehement protesters in action?

tammy57

Tammy57, I am very sorry for for response I had made before. I was very upset by reading all of the responses made and was getting fired up, my post was made in haste and therefore I ended up saying things that may have been rude.

I bolded one point that you made and only because I thought you had pointed out earlier that it had been a proven fact that women do not have any mental problems from having an abortion? If that is a fact, then why would they be feeling any sort of fear or anxiety?

I understand why you are so adament about having others approve of your choice after reading your response…I cannot believe I did not see it before; of course you had an abortion, why else would you be such a driving force to this thread.

My son is 4 1/2 yrs old, he is the light of my life and brings all people around him joy beyond belief. He dances, he laughes to point of belly aching, he sings at church with me, he is the most amazing little person I have ever known. My son was born with Down syndrome. I was 23 yrs old when I gave birth to this little miracle known as Breckin. A few days after we confirmed the diagnosis, my DH said that he did not want anymore children, he feared that he would love those children more than he could love our firstborn…Now, my DH is afraid that when we do have more children, he could not love them as much as he loves our little Breckin. –

To me, there is no choice in abortion or not, there is only the choice of adoption or keeping that child. You are right Tammy57, prayer is what we need for these women. God will do the rest.

God Bless
Elizabeth

 

[JButky]

JButky: The women who choose abortion are making an acceptable choice: acceptable to them. Whatever they have to sort out with God, if they even believe in God, they will sort out. Why is it that you are under the impression that this person’s private decision should be under your watchful eye? It’s none of your business.

Abortion is never an acceptable choice in terms of the purpose of human sexuality. Your argument is based merely on a relativistic philosophy. It is a kind of philosophy that is destructive to the human race. Sure you can “choose” that, but as in my analogy, not without grave consequences to yourself and Mankind. In the sense that you have framed it, pro-choice is reckless. Why do you insist that the purpose of sexuality as it pertains to Mankind is not any of my business? I am part of Mankind and these malformed choices of faulty reason affect me. So I do have a say in Mankind as I am part of it.

That should take care of the non sequitur. Thanks for pointing that out.

The non sequitur is there and demonstrated even more by your further description.

Logically you have presented Choice, Choice, Choice, Choice, OK so far.
But the next set has a problem from consistency…
Life, Life, Life, Death…

It’s still a non sequitur of logic and reasoning, just more fully enumerated this time. The only way to make the statement is to ignore reason and claim relativism which in and of itself is self defeating for Mankind. So you have also inadvertently swerved into repeating and corroborating a false basis for your argument. (Well opinion, I can’t really call that opinion reasonable or logical as presented.)

Joe B

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I do not “allow” or “disallow” anything.

Have you ever asked a nine-week old fetus what it wants? How did you accomplish this remarkable feat? What did it tell you?

tammy57

Until pro-abortionists realize that a human life has value and dignity FROM CONCEPTION, they cannot even pretend to take the moral high ground.

You did not create your own life. God did. It is not your portion to decide whether it has value or when you may wish to end it on a whim or for some other equally ‘good reason.’

Refusing to act against evil gives evil the win by default. But if you think that respecting life from conception to natural death is evil, then by all means come at us with everything you have.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Until pro-abortionists realize that a human life has value and dignity FROM CONCEPTION, they cannot even pretend to take the moral high ground.

You did not create your own life. God did. It is not your portion to decide whether it has value or when you may wish to end it on a whim or for some other equally ‘good reason.’

Refusing to act against evil gives evil the win by default. But if you think that respecting life from conception to natural death is evil, then by all means come at us with everything you have.

Then pro lifers ought to restrict their arguments to this line of reasoning. When you make testable claims such as “Change Your Mind on Abortion b/c Unborn Children Feel Pain” and end up being wrong, the whole position seems weak.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Why do you insist that the purpose of sexuality as it pertains to Mankind is not any of my business? I am part of Mankind and these malformed choices of faulty reason affect me. So I do have a say in Mankind as I am part of it.

That’s a pretty strange argument. It is equally true then that Tammy has a say in Mankind even though you don’t like what she has to say.

Are you saying that the majority opinion gets to be right?

 

[JButky]

That’s a pretty strange argument. It is equally true then that Tammy has a say in Mankind even though you don’t like what she has to say.

Are you saying that the majority opinion gets to be right?

No, that is my defense of Tammy’s argument that I have no right to speak in opposition to someone’s choice to destroy life. We do both have the ability to comment and we should. I am am simply making that point that Tammy’s opinion is illogical and unreasoned and as such her argument is discredited and must be discarded. I further clarified by presenting a reasoned argument demonstrating the point where it derails.

In other words, Yes we all have a say, but it should be governed by right reason. Not only can the majority be wrong, individuals acting in support of a majority can also be wrong…Wrong is wrong and right is right, My argument is against an argument born of relativism that is demonstrated false because it is self contradictory.

Do you understand that more clearly now?

Joe B

 

[tammy57]

Tammy57, I am very sorry for for response I had made before. I was very upset by reading all of the responses made and was getting fired up, my post was made in haste and therefore I ended up saying things that may have been rude.

I bolded one point that you made and only because I thought you had pointed out earlier that it had been a proven fact that women do not have any mental problems from having an abortion? If that is a fact, then why would they be feeling any sort of fear or anxiety?

I understand why you are so adament about having others approve of your choice after reading your response…I cannot believe I did not see it before; of course you had an abortion, why else would you be such a driving force to this thread.

My son is 4 1/2 yrs old, he is the light of my life and brings all people around him joy beyond belief. He dances, he laughes to point of belly aching, he sings at church with me, he is the most amazing little person I have ever known. My son was born with Down syndrome. I was 23 yrs old when I gave birth to this little miracle known as Breckin. A few days after we confirmed the diagnosis, my DH said that he did not want anymore children, he feared that he would love those children more than he could love our firstborn…Now, my DH is afraid that when we do have more children, he could not love them as much as he loves our little Breckin. –

To me, there is no choice in abortion or not, there is only the choice of adoption or keeping that child. You are right Tammy57, prayer is what we need for these women. God will do the rest.

God Bless
Elizabeth

No apology is necessary here; it is an inflammatory topic and each person has ideas and an opinion on it that spring from their own experiences.

I don’t need others to approve of my choice. I don’t need applause. My interest in coming here is to draw the line between opinion and judgment. I don’t have a problem with protesters. I understand that they are doing what they are compelled to do. I have trouble with people making blanket judgments about pregnant women, their situations, their finances, their spirituality, their mental, emotional, physical health. I know that to a practicing Catholic abortion is not acceptable under any circumstances, ever. I accept that, but I happen to disagree with it. I do not subscribe to the belief that choice = abortion. I support a woman’s ability and right to evaluate her circumstances, consult with any and all professionals, family members, etc. about her unplanned pregnancy, and then exercise her own free will with regard to her situation. I have had forty years to discuss this with my God. He has put other trials in my path as well: miscarriages, then a live birth and single parenting for the duration of my daughter’s life. She is 23 years old now and I will never stop being her concerned, loving parent. So I’ve kind of been hit from all sides on this issue, including step-parenting, another potential minefield.

You have taken the edge off my day, Elizabeth. Thanks, and blessings.

tammy57

 

[tammy57]

Abortion is never an acceptable choice in terms of the purpose of human sexuality. Your argument is based merely on a relativistic philosophy. It is a kind of philosophy that is destructive to the human race. Sure you can “choose” that, but as in my analogy, not without grave consequences to yourself and Mankind. In the sense that you have framed it, pro-choice is reckless. Why do you insist that the purpose of sexuality as it pertains to Mankind is not any of my business? I am part of Mankind and these malformed choices of faulty reason affect me. So I do have a say in Mankind as I am part of it.

The non sequitur is there and demonstrated even more by your further description.

Logically you have presented Choice, Choice, Choice, Choice, OK so far.
But the next set has a problem from consistency…
Life, Life, Life, Death…

It’s still a non sequitur of logic and reasoning, just more fully enumerated this time. The only way to make the statement is to ignore reason and claim relativism which in and of itself is self defeating for Mankind. So you have also inadvertently swerved into repeating and corroborating a false basis for your argument. (Well opinion, I can’t really call that opinion reasonable or logical as presented.)

Joe B

Your sexuality is your business. My sexuality is not your business. I do not consider abortion to be the end result of faulty reasoning in the vast majority of cases. If my argument springs from relativism, so be it.

tammy57

 

[tammy57]

Until pro-abortionists realize that a human life has value and dignity FROM CONCEPTION, they cannot even pretend to take the moral high ground.

You did not create your own life. God did. It is not your portion to decide whether it has value or when you may wish to end it on a whim or for some other equally ‘good reason.’

Refusing to act against evil gives evil the win by default. But if you think that respecting life from conception to natural death is evil, then by all means come at us with everything you have.

Ahem. Once again: *“I support CHOICE, whether it be selecting abortion or deciding to remain chaste or choosing to give a child up for adoption. The term ‘choice’, when used intelligently, does not ignore any options. It stands as ‘an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.’” * Choice is not either/or. In case you haven’t noticed, it suggests alternatives.

As to your argument about not having the wits to decide whether life has value or when we may wish to end it on a whim or for some other equally good reason, I offer you this: over 90 percent of people who die by suicide have a mental illness at the time of their death. And the most common mental illness is depression. Do you think people choose to be depressed? If you do, you’d better crack the books and check it out. An untreated mental illness is a pretty good catalyst for concluding that life is not worth living. “Well, why don’t the sissies just get treatment then!”, right? Who has insurance? I don’t. I pay a tremendous amount of money every month for the four medications that I take. My bank account has shrunk to less than a sustainable level and I have no job, even though I’ve been interviewing. Open your eyes and see the world for what it is, not for what you want it to be.

I don’t know a single woman who has had an abortion, myself included, who claimed to take the high moral ground. Not one. Of those that I personally know, the things we have gained through the experience are caution and humility.

Where would you even dredge up such a ludicrous idea?

tammy57

 

[JButky]

If my argument springs from relativism, so be it.

Well thank you for admitting it at least. Most people won’t admit their argument is flawed.
I suspect from the rest of your statement that our definitions of “sexuality” are also diametrically opposed. I could not begin to make a rational argument on human sexuality based on that statement in your post.

But in today’s age, this is the resultant curse of relativism. People cling to and act upon matters that make no sense… It’s all just emotion and how people want to feel by setting aside the prime starting point for understanding. Even the original post question succumbs to the same error of relativism placing a line of reason based on a tangent. The unborn “Feeling pain” is irrelevant to the argument. It is not within the line of reason of the purpose of sexuality. To claim it as a reason for disallowing abortion leaves a very weak argument. It seems it is merely a relativistic ploy to use beneficially since the rest of the world can’t much think outside of a relativistic Kantian mindset and might, just might, embrace it.

Quite frankly, a topic such as this as presented is dangerous because it argues from the same flawed mindset it wishes to undermine. In doing so it give credence to tammy’s position because it supports a similar tangent and never allows the the main argument to come to light. As such, getting to a sound reasonable answer is removed from the discussion. All you have are two sides arguing about their opinion in a relativistic manner and the cause of Truth is never addressed for reasoned discussion to bring to a proper conclusion.

So not only is tammy’s argument flawed, but so is the main topic from the Title of this discussion. While it should be meant to enhance the proper argument, it actually is also a relativistic distraction and a detriment.

Joe B

 

[tammy57]

Well thank you for admitting it at least. Most people won’t admit their argument is flawed.
I suspect from the rest of your statement that our definitions of “sexuality” are also diametrically opposed. I could not begin to make a rational argument on human sexuality based on that statement in your post.

But in today’s age, this is the resultant curse of relativism. People cling to and act upon matters that make no sense… It’s all just emotion and how people want to feel by setting aside the prime starting point for understanding. Even the original post question succumbs to the same error of relativism placing a line of reason based on a tangent. The unborn “Feeling pain” is irrelevant to the argument. It is not within the line of reason of the purpose of sexuality. To claim it as a reason for disallowing abortion leaves a very weak argument. It seems it is merely a relativistic ploy to use beneficially since the rest of the world can’t much think outside of a relativistic Kantian mindset and might, just might, embrace it.

Quite frankly, a topic such as this as presented is dangerous because it argues from the same flawed mindset it wishes to undermine. In doing so it give credence to tammy’s position because it supports a similar tangent and never allows the the main argument to come to light. As such, getting to a sound reasonable answer is removed from the discussion. All you have are two sides arguing about their opinion in a relativistic manner and the cause of Truth is never addressed for reasoned discussion to bring to a proper conclusion.

So not only is tammy’s argument flawed, but so is the main topic from the Title of this discussion. While it should be meant to enhance the proper argument, it actually is also a relativistic distraction and a detriment.

Joe B

I may have a relativist viewpoint, but I certainly do not admit that it is flawed. The “Main Argument”? Would that be you holding court with your steel convictions and your condescending Kant-bashing ? What we have here is two sides arguing about our beliefs - you claim that this is transpiring in a “relativist manner”. That puts you squarely in the relativist ring, like it or not. “Proper Conclusion”? Would that again be exclusively represented by you and your opinions? Most people are fully capable of weighing the issues, experiencing their lives, assessing cause and effect, and developing a manner of living which makes sense to them, which allows them to understand their miniscule place on this planet. Not all believe in God, not all who believe in God believe in your God. And those who believe in your God will find something to debate with you about here sooner or later.

As much as you might like to cling to the idea that Catholics are united and the rest of us are twisting in the wind, take heed that Catholicsm is suffering a deconstruct as generations come and go. Live your life as you see fit. And I will do the same.

tammy57

 

[JButky]

I may have a relativist viewpoint, but I certainly do not admit that it is flawed. The “Main Argument”? Would that be you holding court with your steel convictions and your condescending Kant-bashing ? What we have here is two sides arguing about our beliefs

I cannot agree with your assessment tammy. I have not offered my opinion. I have merely argued that your line of reasoning is inconsistent and have presented an argument for the reasons it is flawed. I am waiting for your response to the challenge I made to the main question of your argument. Essentially that comes down to waiting for your presentation to support your argument that an action involving a small part pertaining to human sexuality is not prima facie self contradictory when it is applied as you have framed it. (i.e. everyone can decide for themselves based on their experience and that un-abashed pro choice scenarios can result in non sequitur subsets nullifying your premise as false causing your whole argument to be thrown out the window)

Tangential name calling does not bring us further to promoting the cause of meaningful discussion. To slip into “two sides arguing about beliefs” is disingenuous and does not promote the cause of meaningful discussion. We should be discussing the main point that the object of the title of this thread really should have addressed. Instead we are only discussing a scenario separated from its root purpose. That is why we only have opinion thrown about here rather than investigation of the higher principles from which this topic is derived.

In other words. I could care less about discussing or arguing opinions. I would rather have a rational discussion on the merits of the root issue. If we can do that, this ancillary issue becomes NON opinionated and can more easily be derived from subsequent reason.

Given your last post I really don’t think that discussion is possible.

Joe B

 

[tammy57]

I cannot agree with your assessment tammy. I have not offered my opinion. I have merely argued that your line of reasoning is inconsistent and have presented an argument for the reasons it is flawed. I am waiting for your response to the challenge I made to the main question of your argument. Essentially that comes down to waiting for your presentation to support your argument that an action involving a small part pertaining to human sexuality is not prima facie self contradictory when it is applied as you have framed it. (i.e. everyone can decide for themselves based on their experience and that un-abashed pro choice scenarios can result in non sequitur subsets nullifying your premise as false causing your whole argument to be thrown out the window)

Tangential name calling does not bring us further to promoting the cause of meaningful discussion. To slip into “two sides arguing about beliefs” is disingenuous and does not promote the cause of meaningful discussion. We should be discussing the main point that the object of the title of this thread really should have addressed. Instead we are only discussing a scenario separated from its root purpose. That is why we only have opinion thrown about here rather than investigation of the higher principles from which this topic is derived.

In other words. I could care less about discussing or arguing opinions. I would rather have a rational discussion on the merits of the root issue. If we can do that, this ancillary issue becomes NON opinionated and can more easily be derived from subsequent reason.

Given your last post I really don’t think that discussion is possible.

Joe B

Perfect! I couldn’t (not* “could”*) care less whether you agree with my assessment.

Now that you have scolded the original poster for even bringing fetal pain into the mix, what shall we discuss? I already addressed her inquiry earlier in this thread. I have made my position on choice abundantly clear. If you can make neither heads nor tails of it, you may try searching other posts I have submitted on other similar threads and perhaps you will come to an understanding of my opinion, whether you agree or not.

If we dismissed every thread containing “two sides arguing about beliefs”, Catholic Answers Forum would fold. If you have not offered an opinion, may I ask why? Would you prefer to sit on the sidelines and critique? What’s your purpose here? Do you want to get your feet wet or not?

Your legalese is arrogant and pugnacious. If you can’t state your piece in a manner which would add clarity to the discussion, I recommend with a twinge of respect that you step back.

tammy57

 

[JButky]

If you can’t state your piece in a manner which would add clarity to the discussion, I recommend with a twinge of respect that you step back.

Well Tammy I will step back only because there is no legitimate discussion here. You have a discredited argument that you cannot logically defend and are unwilling to continue outside of name calling.

So there is no point in continuing to discuss where there is no discussion. I would have liked to have engaged with an explanation for the non sequitur in reasoning so we could continue, but apparently it doesn’t seem like a logical track will proceed.

Prayers for you and all the unborn and especially for those how choose to destroy life that their hearts and minds may be turned.

Joe B

 

[tammy57]

Thank you.

t57