Obama- urges court, Gay Marriage ban

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One of the dissenting Justices to Roe v Wade called the decision an “exercise in raw judicial power,” so maybe I’m not quite as overboard as you may think.

No, Constitutional rights are not secondary to popular opinion. I made no reference to popular opinion at all, but rather to the function of the Legislature, which is itself a Constitutional function.

The question is not whether Constitutional rights are subject to popular opinion—they are not—but whether they are found in the Constitution. How often, I wonder, has the SCOTUS made a decision essentially saying “well, the Constitution has nothing to say about this particular matter, so we defer to the Legislature.”?

Perhaps the Court might view itself not so much as a dictatorship but as a beneficent king, doing his best to provide justice for his subjects, according to his own conscience. That might be a good disposition for a king. But a Court’s function is not to bring about the good of the people, or even to ensure justice for all. It is simply to decide on the constitutionality of particular matters which may be brought before it, or to interpret laws which allow of different interpretations. There is no need for it to correct wrongs that ought to be corrected by legislatures, unless it does so within the bounds of its Constitutional function.

And you are correct, we have a bill of rights to protect the rights of all, even of the minority. And we have a method of amending the Constitution to add more rights if we think they belong in there. If a particular “right” is missing that we think should be included, like the right to abortion or the right to gay marriage, there is a way to put it in, through Constitutional amendment, rather than by judicial fiat. That would be more honest.
Yes, of course, there is often a dissenting opinion. Thank you for quoting it.

So, you are saying that the Court is finding “rights” in the Constitution which don’t exist, and applying them to the law.

That is far different, in my opinion, than saying that the Court legislates. It does not. It may uphold or overturn a law. So, it may affect the intent of legislators. But, it does not create new laws.

I disagree with the idea of narrow interpretation of the Constitution. We do not live in the 18th Century. I generally advocate looking at intent, in addition to the letter, of the law.
 
This is a good time to quote a portion of Scalia’s dissent in US v Virginia (regarding the then male-only Virginia Military Institute), with my emphasis added:

Much of the Court’s opinion is devoted to deprecating the closed-mindedness of our forebears with regard to women’s education, and even with regard to the treatment of women in areas that have nothing to do with education. Closed-minded they were-as every age is, including our own, with regard to matters it cannot guess, because it simply does not consider them debatable. The virtue of a democratic system with a First Amendment is that it readily enables the people, over time, to be persuaded that what they took for granted is not so, and to change their laws accordingly. That system is destroyed if the smug assurances of each age are removed from the democratic process and written into the Constitution. So to counterbalance the Court’s criticism of our ancestors, let me say a word in their praise: they left us free to change. The same cannot be said of this most illiberal Court, which has embarked on a course of inscribing one after another of the current preferences of the society (and in some cases only the counter-majoritarian preferences of the society’s law-trained elite) into our Basic Law. Today it enshrines the notion that no substantial educational value is to be served by an all-men’s military academy–so that the decision by the people of Virginia to maintain such an institution denies equal protection to women who cannot attend that institution but can attend others. Since it is entirely clear that the Constitution of the United States–the old one–takes no sides in this educational debate, I dissent.

That’s why objections like these:

…miss the point.

If something is Constitutional which we do not like, we can amend the Constitution. Telling the justices to just interpret the Constitution in whatever way they need to in order to do what some groups think is best, regardless of how its parts were originally written and intended to be read, results in exactly what Jim is saying: a dictatorship of the judiciary.

The response of ‘Go live in a dictatorship and see if you agree!’ also misses the point. Do you think dictatorships are just automatic misery for everyone in them? They wouldn’t survive. Usually, quite a substantial number of people enjoy the dictatorship. Even if they’re not the absolute majority, they have power and privilege and they like the laws that are passed. Such is the case with the SCOTUS.

If we dislike the Constitution, let’s amend it.
Regardless of what we think, as individuals, of various rulings. I would hope that we can all agree that this is the weakest court in modern memory. It is just not a very good collection of justices, from what I am told by competent lawyers. This Court is not respected, in many circles.

It would not surprise me, at all, if the Court evades the Prop 8 question, and sends it back down. They can do it easily by finding that there is no defense with standing in the matter. The CA AG has refused to defend the case, and it is a private citizens group which is doing so. Let’s hope they do a better job of it than they have so far. The defense has been pathetic.
 
Regardless of what we think, as individuals, of various rulings. I would hope that we can all agree that this is the weakest court in modern memory. It is just not a very good collection of justices, from what I am told by competent lawyers. This Court is not respected, in many circles.

It would not surprise me, at all, if the Court evades the Prop 8 question, and sends it back down. They can do it easily by finding that there is no defense with standing in the matter. The CA AG has refused to defend the case, and it is a private citizens group which is doing so. Let’s hope they do a better job of it than they have so far. The defense has been pathetic.
Depends on your age whether they are the weakest court in memory. 😃 I rather like their unpredictibility. But, regardless they are what we have and their opinion is the only one that counts on decisions. 🤷

I fully expect them to dump Prop 8 back down to a lower court (not sure if it will be district or appeallate) for a new ruling based on whatever standard they determine for deciding sexual orientation cases. I’m assuming that setting the standard (both 3rd party defense and standard of review) for future cases is the main reason they took the Prop 8 & DOMA cases to begin with.
 
Unfortunately, the Court does not restrict itself to simply upholding or overturning laws.

In Everson vs Board of Education (1947), the Court upheld the constitutionality of using public funds to bus parochial school students. But in the process, it inserted this gratuitous statement: “The First Amendment has erected a high wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.” But the first amendment says nothing about a wall. It protects religious liberty. This was one of the first steps in turning the First Amendment on its head. That statement was then used in future cases to make bad law.

In Engle vs Vitale, (1962), the Court struck down this voluntary prayer used in a public school:
“Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on thee, and we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country. Amen.”

The prayer is pretty innocuous, and I doubt that generations of previous jurists would have found anything objectionable about it, but the Court had by now decided that God must be at all costs ejected from public schools. Twenty-two states had filed an amicus curiae brief urging the upholding of the prayer.

Griswold v Connecticut (1965) overturned a state law prohibiting the sale of contraceptives. It’s basis was that the law violated the “right to marital privacy.” Now, no right to privacy could be found anywhere in the Constitution. No matter. The Court created that right ex nihilo. Justice Hugo Black, in his dissent, noted that the Constitution contained no right to privacy anywhere. Justice Stewart in his dissent, called the Connecticut law “uncommonly silly” but certainly not unconstitutional.

The right to privacy, previously created ex nihilo in Griswold, was used to justify overturning abortion laws in Roe v Wade. It’s companion case Doe v Bolton, effectively made abortion legal anytime throughout pregnancy, a more liberal abortion law than any state or any nation. Who knew that was in the Constitution? Certainly not those who wrote it.

In Roberts v Madigan, (1990) the Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a public school teacher to be seen with a personal copy of a bible on school property. Hmm, is that not an interference with his free exercise of religion, something which is guaranteed by the First Amendment?

In Lawrence v Texas, (2003) the Court found a right to sodomy within the Constitution. It seems to have taken awhile to find that right in the Constitution, but now it might well form the basis for gay marriage.

Most famous of all, in Planned Parenthood v Casey (the Casey here is the former pro-life Governor Bob Casey of Illinois, who was denied the ability to speak at the Democratic Convention), the court not only upheld abortion as a constitutional right, but made the following observation:

“At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.”

Now, I can imagine Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and a good many others gathered around, and let’s say one of them came up with that statement. I can picture the puzzled looks, and the response, “What in heaven’s name are you talking about?” Or perhaps Jefferson might have said “What in the name of Zeus are you talking about?” Because even he wasn’t a total relativist. They didn’t believe that their words were just a bunch of mush to be manipulated at will.
 
Depends on your age whether they are the weakest court in memory. 😃 I rather like their unpredictibility. But, regardless they are what we have and their opinion is the only one that counts on decisions. 🤷

I fully expect them to dump Prop 8 back down to a lower court (not sure if it will be district or appeallate) for a new ruling based on whatever standard they determine for deciding sexual orientation cases. I’m assuming that setting the standard (both 3rd party defense and standard of review) for future cases is the main reason they took the Prop 8 & DOMA cases to begin with.
Well, if they send prop 8 back down on standing, then it would go back to the trial court, and Walker’s decision would stand. That is the point at which the state of California declined to defend the matter.

DOMA might have the same problem, which would solve Windsor’s problem, and she would get her $363k tax refund. But, it would not solve the larger legal issue, and another case will be brought forward. It seems that the justices must have considered this when they accepted the case. Therefore, I don’t think that DOMA will be sent down.

Just my uninformed guess.
 
Unfortunately, the Court does not restrict itself to simply upholding or overturning laws.

In Everson vs Board of Education (1947), the Court upheld the constitutionality of using public funds to bus parochial school students. But in the process, it inserted this gratuitous statement: “The First Amendment has erected a high wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.” But the first amendment says nothing about a wall. It protects religious liberty. This was one of the first steps in turning the First Amendment on its head. That statement was then used in future cases to make bad law.

In Engle vs Vitale, (1962), the Court struck down this voluntary prayer used in a public school:
“Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on thee, and we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country. Amen.”

The prayer is pretty innocuous, and I doubt that generations of previous jurists would have found anything objectionable about it, but the Court had by now decided that God must be at all costs ejected from public schools. Twenty-two states had filed an amicus curiae brief urging the upholding of the prayer.

Griswold v Connecticut (1965) overturned a state law prohibiting the sale of contraceptives. It’s basis was that the law violated the “right to marital privacy.” Now, no right to privacy could be found anywhere in the Constitution. No matter. The Court created that right ex nihilo. Justice Hugo Black, in his dissent, noted that the Constitution contained no right to privacy anywhere. Justice Stewart in his dissent, called the Connecticut law “uncommonly silly” but certainly not unconstitutional.

The right to privacy, previously created ex nihilo in Griswold, was used to justify overturning abortion laws in Roe v Wade. It’s companion case Doe v Bolton, effectively made abortion legal anytime throughout pregnancy, a more liberal abortion law than any state or any nation. Who knew that was in the Constitution? Certainly not those who wrote it.

In Roberts v Madigan, (1990) the Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a public school teacher to be seen with a personal copy of a bible on school property. Hmm, is that not an interference with his free exercise of religion, something which is guaranteed by the First Amendment?

In Lawrence v Texas, (2003) the Court found a right to sodomy within the Constitution. It seems to have taken awhile to find that right in the Constitution, but now it might well form the basis for gay marriage.

Most famous of all, in Planned Parenthood v Casey (the Casey here is the former pro-life Governor Bob Casey of Illinois, who was denied the ability to speak at the Democratic Convention), the court not only upheld abortion as a constitutional right, but made the following observation:

“At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.”

Now, I can imagine Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and a good many others gathered around, and let’s say one of them came up with that statement. I can picture the puzzled looks, and the response, “What in heaven’s name are you talking about?” Or perhaps Jefferson might have said “What in the name of Zeus are you talking about?” Because even he wasn’t a total relativist. They didn’t believe that their words were just a bunch of mush to be manipulated at will.
Well, if everyone agreed on the facts of every case, and on the meaning of the law, then we would not need appellate courts. Are you suggesting that we eliminate the appeal system?

I’m not sure what your point is, other than that you sometimes disagree with the rulings. No doubt there are rulings which you agree with, which others disagree with. Go figure. That’s exactly why we have courts. People disagree, and that disagreement needs to be resolved.

By the very nature of the system, and the problem which it is designed to address, there will always be someone who is unhappy with every judgement, no matter the court.
 
My point is that the Court sometimes goes beyond the meaning of the law as written and creates new law or new rights that were not there before, wholly bypassing the amendment process, such as the right to privacy, the right to abortion, the right to sodomy, etc. When it does so, dissenting justices, not me, point out the overreach. In doing such things, the Court makes not a nation of law, but a nation of men ignoring the law.
 
Well, if they send prop 8 back down on standing, then it would go back to the trial court, and Walker’s decision would stand. That is the point at which the state of California declined to defend the matter.

DOMA might have the same problem, which would solve Windsor’s problem, and she would get her $363k tax refund. But, it would not solve the larger legal issue, and another case will be brought forward. It seems that the justices must have considered this when they accepted the case. Therefore, I don’t think that DOMA will be sent down.

Just my uninformed guess.
Tomorrow begins oral arguments and they are releasing same day audio like they did with the ACA cases. Prop 8 gets an hour on Tues and DOMA two hours on Wed.

They could have addressed the larger issue way back when Lawrence was decided, but they avoided it like the plaque. I don’t expect they will address it this time around either.
 
My point is that the Court sometimes goes beyond the meaning of the law as written and creates new law or new rights that were not there before, wholly bypassing the amendment process, such as the right to privacy, the right to abortion, the right to sodomy, etc. When it does so, dissenting justices, not me, point out the overreach. In doing such things, the Court makes not a nation of law, but a nation of men ignoring the law.
The supreme court has a history on some of the most crucial decisions, making terrible ones:
  • Plessy v Ferguson allowed states to segregate by race
  • Ruled 1820 Missouri Compromise unconstitutional, which permitted slavery and supreme court ruled Dred v Scott case that Black people could never be citizens
  • Korematsu v United States allowed US military to exclude groups of people from military areas which resulted in Japanese Americans being forced from their homes and put in internment camps
  • Buck v Bell allowed forcible sterilisation by states of the mentally ill
  • Roe v Wade legalised abortion has led to the killing of 55 million plus
  • On a lesser level, Justice Roberts rewrote the Affordable Care Act as a tax
I pray the supreme court upholds Prop 8 and DOMA but I do not have a lot of faith in the supreme court given their terrible track record
 
Regardless of what we think, as individuals, of various rulings. I would hope that we can all agree that this is the weakest court in modern memory. It is just not a very good collection of justices, from what I am told by competent lawyers. This Court is not respected, in many circles.
How do you know who is and isn’t a competent lawyer? What’s your metric? And why do you think that the Court’s “not being respected” means that the Court is bad? The Pope is “not respected in many circles”. That may mean far less about the pope and far more about the circles.

Rather like how Justice Roberts was derided and attacked by many - until he switched sides on the Obamacara ruling. Then he was a very brilliant man according to those same people.

As for the estimation of the defenders of Prop 8 - who knows. I think most people who try to argue against gay marriage do a poor job of it.
 
scotusblog.com/2013/03/court-to-tackle-californias-ban-on-same-sex-marriage-in-plain-english/

A pretty good article explaining the legal positions of the parties. I would recommend it to anyone who is planning on following the arguments tomorrow! Here are two brief summaries:

Prop 8 Supporters (Petitioners):
The proponents of Proposition 8 filed their opening brief on the merits of their case in late January. They pushed back against the court of appeals’ ruling that Proposition 8 unconstitutionally revokes a right to same-sex marriage that the state had previously granted. It is certainly not the case, they contend, that by choosing to offer more rights to its residents than the Constitution requires, a state automatically commits itself to do so forever.
The proponents also emphasize that Proposition 8 simply “restore[d] the traditional definition of marriage” that has been in existence for centuries, and which rests in no small part on a desire to ensure that children “will be born and raised in stable and enduring family units by their own mothers and fathers.”
And the challengers (Respondents):
marriage is a fundamental right that has nothing to do with having children. Notably, the challengers do not defend the court of appeals’ narrow ruling that California alone violated the Constitution by recognizing a right to same-sex marriage then taking that right away. Rather, they argue that there is a basic right in every state for same-sex couples to marry. Because marriage is such a fundamental right, and gays and lesbians have traditionally been victims of discrimination, the challengers continue, the Court should apply a more demanding test – known as “heightened scrutiny” – to determine whether Proposition 8 is constitutional.
The challengers dispute the notion that same-sex couples shouldn’t be allowed to marry because they can’t have children. That theory would, they say, also extend to opposite-sex couples who either can’t or don’t want to have children of their own.
 
My question is: If a man can marry another man because he is gay, does it mean he can have a husband AND a wife if he is bisexual? What if his wife is bisexual too, and wants a wife of her own? What if 50-90 people rush the courthouse so they can all be married to each other in one group? Were are we going to draw the line?
 
I think it should be left up to the churches. one day i would love to go through marriage and like someone said before it is inevitable. but i also think that forcing every church to do it would be disrespectful. but that is just my two cents and i know many of you disagree. plus the economy would be amazing since we (the gay community) love to go all out on weddings 🙂
 
Ooooh, socially liberal republicans who are unpopular with actual conservatives?

Shocking.

You’d think this was one issue the Catholics on this website could find common ground on. Sadly, not even this. God must weep for the pain and damage caused by pro-gay “marriage” Catholics.
:amen::blessyou:
 
The challengers dispute the notion that same-sex couples shouldn’t be allowed to marry because they can’t have children. That theory would, they say, also extend to opposite-sex couples who either can’t or don’t want to have children of their own.
Interesting that no one seems to be taking the more basic position that same sex couples can’t marry because they are incapable of marital relations. No marital relations, no marriage. What are men and women for?
 
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