Obama- urges court, Gay Marriage ban

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"One may argue that lesbians are capable of procreating via artificial insemination, so the state does have an interest in recognizing lesbian marriages, but a lesbian’s sexual relationship, committed or not, has no bearing on her ability to reproduce. Perhaps it may serve a state interest to recognize gay marriages to make it easier for gay couples to adopt. However, there is ample evidence (see, for example, David Popenoe’s Life Without Father) that children need both a male and female parent for proper development. Unfortunately, small sample sizes and other methodological problems make it impossible to draw conclusions from studies that directly examine the effects of gay parenting. However, the empirically verified common wisdom about the importance of a mother and father in a child’s development should give advocates of gay adoption pause. The differences between men and women extend beyond anatomy, so it is essential for a child to be nurtured by parents of both sexes if a child is to learn to function in a society made up of both sexes. Is it wise to have a social policy that encourages family arrangements that deny children such essentials? Gays are not necessarily bad parents, nor will they necessarily make their children gay, but they cannot provide a set of parents that includes both a male and a female.

Some have compared the prohibition of homosexual marriage to the prohibition of interracial marriage. This analogy fails because fertility does not depend on race, making race irrelevant to the state’s interest in marriage. By contrast, homosexuality is highly relevant because it precludes procreation.

Some argue that homosexual marriages serve a state interest because they enable gays to live in committed relationships. However, there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living in such relationships today. Advocates of gay marriage claim gay couples need marriage in order to have hospital visitation and inheritance rights, but they can easily obtain these rights by writing a living will and having each partner designate the other as trustee and heir. There is nothing stopping gay couples from signing a joint lease or owning a house jointly, as many single straight people do with roommates. The only benefits of marriage from which homosexual couples are restricted are those that are costly to the state and society.

"Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation. In the 20th century, Western societies have downplayed the procreative aspect of marriage, much to our detriment. As a result, the happiness of the parties to the marriage, rather than the good of the children or the social order, has become its primary end, with disastrous consequences. When married persons care more about themselves than their responsibilities to their children and society, they become more willing to abandon these responsibilities, leading to broken homes, a plummeting birthrate, and countless other social pathologies that have become rampant over the last 40 years. Homosexual marriage is not the cause for any of these pathologies, but it will exacerbate them, as the granting of marital benefits to a category of sexual relationships that are necessarily sterile can only widen the separation between marriage and procreation.

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis cant it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction that love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos." Adam Kolasinski
 
Ooooh, socially liberal republicans who are unpopular with actual conservatives?

Shocking.

You’d think this was one issue the Catholics on this website could find common ground on. Sadly, not even this. God must weep for the pain and damage caused by pro-gay “marriage” Catholics.
👍👍👍
 
Fact is this isn’t about anything but acceptance, listen to me…“your already accepted” but in your own mind as we see throughout this thread is where the conflict exists. Hecklers are a part of life, get over it. Find someone to communicate with and continue to talk with, until your life becomes an open book in which you can talk about any page in that book openly. Then and only then, will the assault of hecklers in fact become rubber bullets that will bounce off you.

Accepting behavior and condoning it are completely different realities. And as far as logic with the OP, this does not serve a logical purpose, that is unless you subscribe to Blind Faith with Obama, not the Bible.
 
the Pope acknowledged many Catholics do not adhere to all teachings but he did not say they were not Catholics. And it looks like the thread is back on track.
Still waiting for this since you bought it up. The thread is has never really been off track and if it had I trust in Robert Bay and his ability. A few different posters bought up relevant issues such as marriage/divorce and abortion. All relevant to civil marriage just as Christianity is in a predominate Christian country. So yes I believe it was in fact relevant to remind people where those Christian roots in fact come from, least they forget or in fact don’t know.

Nevertheless CMatt25 this is also why I re-framed the argument above. 👍
 
Good for you. I guess you could give yourself a pat on the back for all your formal studies. I myself keep in contact with all sorts of clergy. United Church of Christ pastors and Episcopal priests most recently. A few of them were even raised Catholic. One of the Episcopal priests was a Roman priest before becoming an Episcopal priest. But I’ve been in contact with Disciples of Christ pastors, a PCUSA pastor, an ELCA pastor, Unitarian Universalists. A UMC pastor too. A number of them have no problem with homosexuality.
If I might be so rude as to ask, what is “no problem with” in said context? Most churches I am aware of could be considered to be either way on a lot of matters of sexual ethics, depending on what you consider having a problem with it, to be.

I would, however, go as far as to say that I’m not aware of any significant deviation on what the instructions are about homosexuality, only whether you tell people about it.

In your experience, are there Christian churches which think Christianity does not forbid “physical homosexuality”?
 
Except maybe the ones who have a different interpretation of homosexuality and the Bible and who don’t fit your definition of “credible” and that of others who believe as you do.

But as has already been established, there are for instance more liberal Christians than the majority found on this forum, in denominations who do believe a Biblical interpretation of homosexuality which differs from yours and may even believe it’s credible.
Then let’s be honest. Do the para experts hold these views based on academic criteria or is it that there is more than just an academic interest? I think the question answers itself.
And the bottom line is I think that’s the whole point of what Seeker and I have explained.
There are different faiths and non beliefs in a country such as the United States. And then there is civil law. What many of you argue might work fine if the US was the Vatican or a state with a state religion. But not only is the US not heaven on earth, the US is not a nation of one brand of Christian belief either. There are many Christians of various perspectives. There are many other people of faith. There are people with no religious faith. And whether you or we like it or not, sometimes civil law may have to reflect this fact in a society where many different people of different perspectives and POV and beliefs strive to live together.
And you think that justifies unjust laws?
And President Obama as he evolved on the issue I think seems to get it. Thus why he is urging the court to do what he is urging it to do.
He has not evolved on this issue. He supported relativism from the start.
 
I think that’s just called a Catholic. I’m not sure why some are so desperate to add some type of prefix to “Catholic”.

I wonder why those who pick and choose which Catholic teaching they personally follow would try to make that kind of distinction.
Kinda like saying I would not own a slave but who am I to tell someone else they cannot do so.
 
Still waiting for this since you bought it up. :
Gary, still waiting for what? But if you mean regarding the Pope acknowledging many Catholics do not adhere to all teachings but he did not say they were not Catholics, Scipio brought it up. He posted a link. Maybe we’re talking about different Popes. But if you read the linked article by Scipio, Pope JP2 spoke of Catholics reportedly not adhering to all teachings. He went on to use a prefix to describe those who follow everything. But nowhere in the article did a Pope say the Catholics who do not adhere to everything were not Catholic.
 
Gary, still waiting for what? But if you mean regarding the Pope acknowledging many Catholics do not adhere to all teachings but he did not say they were not Catholics, Scipio brought it up. He posted a link. Maybe we’re talking about different Popes. But if you read the linked article by Scipio, Pope JP2 spoke of Catholics reportedly not adhering to all teachings. He went on to use a prefix to describe those who follow everything. But nowhere in the article did a Pope say the Catholics who do not adhere to everything were not Catholic.
I saw it more as the Pope calling out Catholics who pick and choose the doctrines they adhere to (kinda like Martin Luther) to cut it out. (and it was Benedict, although it later had a quote by JPII).

The link shows why it’s not okay to pick and choose which Catholic doctrines one follows, regardless of prefixes (or lack thereof).

(hence, the title, "Pope Benedict decries “cafeteria Catholicism”’)
 
Here’s the question that I have yet to see answered in the many threads regarding same-sex “marriage”:

Can those advocating for same-sex “marriage” provide single example of a civilization anywhere in the world from the dawn of history to AD2000 that accepted same-sex “marriage” as equal to marriage? If same-sex “marriage” is such a wonderful thing with so many benefits, it follows that it would have been adopted by someone at some point in history. Just show us one example behind which the banners of same-sex “marriage” supporters could rally.
That depends on how you define “civilization” and “marriage”. Does North American Indian culture count?
 
How in the world could you suggest and propose to know the intent of this man…

This vision of a perfect world you embrace which meets up to your expectations doesn’t exist but in your mind. No utopia coming, no garden of eden re-established on earth…all this is an illusion created in your own mind
On gay marriage as it relates to civil law, because I’ve listened to what he’s said about why he’s evolved on the issue with regard to civil law from being in favor to civil unions to now gay marriage. Pretty much sounded like what Seeker1961 and I have explained to you. That he recognizes there are so many different faiths and beliefs and views on the issue and how that fact comes into play with regard to forming civil law on it.

And I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about when you infer I embrace utopia on earth. I have actually said this is not heaven on earth. 🤷
 
Here’s the question that I have yet to see answered in the many threads regarding same-sex “marriage”:

Can those advocating for same-sex “marriage” provide single example of a civilization anywhere in the world from the dawn of history to AD2000 that accepted same-sex “marriage” as equal to marriage? If same-sex “marriage” is such a wonderful thing with so many benefits, it follows that it would have been adopted by someone at some point in history. Just show us one example behind which the banners of same-sex “marriage” supporters could rally.
No, they can show deviations from marriage but that is not marriage. They would make the exception the rule and the rule the exception.
 
That depends on how you define “civilization” and “marriage”. Does North American Indian culture count?
Same sex marriages common in Native American culture? Still doesn’t exist.

The Obummer supporters are getting desparate.
 
I saw it more as the Pope calling out Catholics who pick and choose the doctrines they adhere to (kinda like Martin Luther) to cut it out. (and it was Benedict, although it later had a quote by JPII).

The link shows why it’s not okay to pick and choose which Catholic doctrines one follows, regardless of prefixes (or lack thereof).

(hence, the title, "Pope Benedict decries “cafeteria Catholicism”’)
Scipio, I don’t want to beleaguer this here. But just to reply, well sure former Pope Benedict didn’t want Catholics picking and choosing as much. But he never said they were not Catholics. CAF Catholics themselves pick and choose if they say some Baptized Catholics are not Catholics. Yes I know they mean they are not 100$ faithful perhaps. But to say they are not Catholic is simply not the case in the eyes of the Catholic Church. So to suggest otherwise is not being completely faithful either it would seem. And it as well can cause confusion as to who the Catholic Church says is a Catholic.
 
I saw it more as the Pope calling out Catholics who pick and choose the doctrines they adhere to (kinda like Martin Luther) to cut it out. (and it was Benedict, although it later had a quote by JPII).

The link shows why it’s not okay to pick and choose which Catholic doctrines one follows, regardless of prefixes (or lack thereof).

(hence, the title, "Pope Benedict decries “cafeteria Catholicism”’)
The debate about who is Catholic is mostly merit-less. The claim of those on the left that all baptized people are Catholic really only matters if one is a living member of the Body of Christ. If we are dead members what good is claiming we are Catholic? It is a pedantic matter. We can be Catholic in hell too. That is of no value though. The issue is are we alive in the Body of Christ.
 
Here’s the question that I have yet to see answered in the many threads regarding same-sex “marriage”:

Can those advocating for same-sex “marriage” provide single example of a civilization anywhere in the world from the dawn of history to AD2000 that accepted same-sex “marriage” as equal to marriage? If same-sex “marriage” is such a wonderful thing with so many benefits, it follows that it would have been adopted by someone at some point in history. Just show us one example behind which the banners of same-sex “marriage” supporters could rally.
According to Wikipedia, the short answer would be nope, but the longer one would have some qualifications. I was surprised to read that the records of the marriage of two men by a priest are available. I wonder if that is the only one in the history of the Catholic Church:
An example of egalitarian male domestic partnership from the early Zhou Dynasty period of China is recorded in the story of Pan Zhang & Wang Zhongxian. While the relationship was clearly approved by the wider community, and was compared to heterosexual marriage, it did not involve a religious ceremony binding the couple.[66]
The first historical mention of the performance of same-sex marriages occurred during the early Roman Empire.[67] These were usually reported in a critical or satirical manner.[68]
The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy, who resembled one of his concubines,[69] named Sporus in a very public ceremony with all the solemnities of matrimony, and lived with him as his spouse. A friend gave the “bride” away “as required by law.” The marriage was celebrated separately in both Greece and Rome in extravagant public ceremonies.[70]
Emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria named Hierocles, as his husband.[71] He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.[72][73]
It should be noted, however, that conubium existed only between a civis Romanus and a civis Romana (that is, between a male Roman citizen and a female Roman citizen), so that a marriage between two Roman males (or with a slave) would have no legal standing in Roman law (apart, presumably, from the arbitrary will of the emperor in the two aforementioned cases).[74] Furthermore, “matrimonium is an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man takes a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he may have children by her.”[75] Still, the lack of legal validity notwithstanding, there is a consensus among modern historians that same-sex relationships existed in ancient Rome, but the exact frequency and nature of “same-sex unions” during that period is obscure.[76] In 342 AD Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans issued a law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) prohibiting same-sex marriage in Rome and ordering execution for those so married.[77]
A same-sex marriage between the two men Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz in the Galician municipality of Rairiz de Veiga in Spain occurred on 16 April 1061. They were married by a priest at a small chapel. The historic documents about the church wedding were found at Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.[78]
 
Same sex marriages common in Native American culture? Still doesn’t exist.

The Obummer supporters are getting desparate.
According to Sabine Lang, prior to being westernized by Europeans, many North American Indian tribes recognized transgendered people as a third gender (some tribes recognized 3 or 4 genders). So technically, when a transgendered male partnered with another male, it wasn’t a “same sex marriage” since the two had different roles in society based on their different gender identities.

From my own research, I learned that gender was strongly tied to the type of work a person did. Women did not hunt. Men did not plant crops. It really screwed up their entire society when Europeans came in and trashed the whole system by forcing men to “be women”, etc. It was really horrible.
 
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