Obama- urges court, Gay Marriage ban

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ephesians4 said:
If I might be so rude as to ask, what is “no problem with” in said context? Most churches I am aware of could be considered to be either way on a lot of matters of sexual ethics, depending on what you consider having a problem with it, to be.

I would, however, go as far as to say that I’m not aware of any significant deviation on what the instructions are about homosexuality, only whether you tell people about it.

In your experience, are there Christian churches which think Christianity does not forbid “physical homosexuality”?
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That’s not so rude. I’ve had a UCC pastor tell me he supports SS marriage. His denomination is on record of supporting it. There are many UCC congregations that are open and affirming to homosexuals. I’ve had an Episcopal priest tell me she had no problem with her faith tradition elevating an openly gay man to bishop. Bishop Gene Robinson. In fact she says if 2 people believe in one God and in Christ, they are on the same page. And just because they may disagree on homosexuality doesn’t mean they can’t worship Christ in the same family. An openly lesbian couple was confirmed at her church because they had missed the day of visitation by the bishop at their Episcopal church. And the couple’s priest had asked if they could be confirmed there. No problem she said. Everyone knew the 2 women were a couple and it did not cause any stirring or commentary she said. Another Episcopal priest I know, more than one actually, is willing to celebrate blessings of SS unions now that the Episcopal bishop in their diocese has given approval.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say if these gay and lesbian Christian couples were to have their unions blessed by their pastors, that they might have a physical homosexual relationship following the blessings. I doubt their pastors and spiritual advisors would be oblivious to that.when they performed the blessings of their unions. I’ve also had Disciples of Christ pastors tell me sexual orientation is not a criteria for service in their churches.

These are all considered to be mainline or mainline to liberal churches within broader Christianity. Though I know the Catholic Church doesn’t call them churches but ecclesial communities. Nevertheless the Catholic Church considers them to be Christians.
 
Seeker1961 said:
Another country heard from…

money.cnn.com/2012/05/10/pf/gay-marriage/index.htm
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1 of the top 10 states for business has redefined marriage; 9 of the states have amendments to their constitutions banning same sex ‘marriage’

While redefining marriage has a short term economic benefit to the state in the article, it is not a consistent because that has not been seen in Maine, what are the long term consequences?

After marriage was redefined in Scandanvia years ago, fewer hetrosexuals are getting married, which means a huge loss for business related to weddings and the minority of homosexuals getting ‘married’ is not making up for the loss. It means an increase in child poverty as that is related to a lack of a marriage culture, which means increased cost to the government

Catholic adoption agencies refusing to give children to homosexuals are being pushed out of the adoption service which means thousands of children have to go through the state system which means huge financial costs to the states
 
Dawnia said:
There is going to need to be a lot more gay weddings to make up for the fall in normal(?) weddings.
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I have trouble with this idea that gay marriage is going to mean that fewer straight people marry. I don’t have any idea where that is coming from. Gay people are less than 10% of the total population, and only a fraction of that group will marry. Legalizing gay marriage is not going to suddenly turn straight people gay and increase that number.
 
fix said:
The debate about who is Catholic is mostly merit-less. The claim of those on the left that all baptized people are Catholic really only matters if one is a living member of the Body of Christ. If we are dead members what good is claiming we are Catholic? It is a pedantic matter. We can be Catholic in hell too. That is of no value though. The issue is are we alive in the Body of Christ.
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Well except I would think it would matter if you believe repentance in their hearts is always possible with God until they take their last breath which Catholics do from what I know about the faith. So I’m thinking it may not be a great idea to risk alienating them further from your faith. If they end up severing all ties with your Church, what good have you done for them?
 
_Abyssinia said:
1 of the top 10 states for business has redefined marriage; 9 of the states have amendments to the constition banning same sex ‘marriage’

While redefining marriage has a short term economic benefit to the state in the article, it is not a consistent because that has not been seen in Maine, what are the long term consequences?

After marriage was redefined in Scandanvia years ago, fewer hetrosexuals are getting married, which means a huge loss for business related to weddings and the minority of homosexuals getting ‘married’ is not making up for the loss. It means an increase in child poverty as that is related to a lack of a marriage culture, which means increased cost to the government

Catholic adoption agencies refusing to give children to homosexuals are being pushed out of the adoption service which means thousands of children have to go through the state system which means huge financial costs to the states
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Source?
 
CMatt25 said:
regarding the Pope acknowledging many Catholics do not adhere to all teachings but he did not say they were not Catholics, Scipio brought it up. He posted a link. Maybe we’re talking about different Popes. But if you read the linked article by Scipio, Pope JP2 spoke of Catholics reportedly not adhering to all teachings. He went on to use a prefix to describe those who follow everything. But nowhere in the article did a Pope say the Catholics who do not adhere to everything were not Catholic.
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A] The Deposit of Faith remains

B] Disobedience and misunderstanding doesn’t constitute a reason to disbelieve point A. in fact its always been around.
 
bellasbane said:
According to Sabine Lang, prior to being westernized by Europeans, many North American Indian tribes recognized transgendered people as a third gender (some tribes recognized 3 or 4 genders). So technically, when a transgendered male partnered with another male, it wasn’t a “same sex marriage” since the two had different roles in society based on their different gender identities.
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Many also performed human sacrifice (in my area, Mound Builder cultures), but I wouldn’t suggest that a viable part of a moral society, either.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I have trouble with this idea that gay marriage is going to mean that fewer straight people marry. I don’t have any idea where that is coming from. Gay people are less than 10% of the total population, and only a fraction of that group will marry. Legalizing gay marriage is not going to suddenly turn straight people gay and increase that number.
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Statistics show that OSMs are declining significantly everywhere, but appear to affect those states with SSM more than those without. Could be a lot of reasons for this, though.

My point is, if any state is counting on gay marriages to get them out of a financial hole, it’s wishful thinking.
 
CMatt25 said:
That’s not so rude. I’ve had a UCC pastor tell me he supports SS marriage. His denomination is on record of supporting it. There are many UCC congregations that are open and affirming to homosexuals. I’ve had an Episcopal priest tell me she had no problem with her faith tradition elevating an openly gay man to bishop. Bishop Gene Robinson. In fact she says if 2 people believe in one God and in Christ, they are on the same page. And just because they may disagree on homosexuality doesn’t mean they can’t worship Christ in the same family. An openly lesbian couple was confirmed at her church because they had missed the day of visitation by the bishop at their Episcopal church. And the couple’s priest had asked if they could be confirmed there. No problem she said. Everyone knew the 2 women were a couple and it did not cause any stirring or commentary she said. Another Episcopal priest I know, more than one actually, is willing to celebrate blessings of SS unions now that the Episcopal bishop in their diocese has given approval.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say if these gay and lesbian Christian couples were to have their unions blessed by their pastors, that they might have a physical homosexual relationship following the blessings. I doubt their pastors and spiritual advisors would be oblivious to that.when they performed the blessings of their unions. I’ve also had Disciples of Christ pastors tell me sexual orientation is not a criteria for service in their churches.

These are all considered to be mainline or mainline to liberal churches within broader Christianity. Though I know the Catholic Church doesn’t call them churches but ecclesial communities. Nevertheless the Catholic Church considers them to be Christians.
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The First Congregational church in my town is part of the UCC and openly supports SS marriage. When my town was founded by Puritans in the late 17th century, this Church was also the seat of government and meeting house - hence the designation of “First” in its name. They are very proud of their role in American History.
 
CMatt25 said:
Well except I would think it would matter if you believe repentance in their hearts is always possible with God until they take their last breath which Catholics do from what I know about the faith. So I’m thinking it may not be a great idea to risk alienating them further from your faith. If they end up severing all ties with your Church, what good have you done for them?
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We have done them no good, and if we truly love these people, we will (charitably) call them back to God. A greater evil is letting them continue to sin agains God’s Church.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I have trouble with this idea that gay marriage is going to mean that fewer straight people marry. I don’t have any idea where that is coming from. Gay people are less than 10% of the total population, and only a fraction of that group will marry. Legalizing gay marriage is not going to suddenly turn straight people gay and increase that number.
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I have no idea either where that comes from. I’m not going to trouble over it too much though. As I see it and do the math, you’re right I believe. A fraction of less than 10% can’t possibly cause all this doom and gloom.
 
Dawnia said:
Statistics show that OSMs are declining significantly everywhere, but appear to affect those states with SSM more than those without. Could be a lot of reasons for this, though.

My point is, if any state is counting on gay marriages to get them out of a financial hole, it’s wishful thinking.
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I would agree there. There just aren’t enough gay people that want to get married to move the economic needle.

I think marriage as an institution that has been in trouble for a LONG time and blaming it’s problems on gay people is another example of denial. Gay people aren’t responsible for hurricanes, wars, earthquakes, sinkholes or the decline in heterosexual marriages- it’s flattering but we simply aren’t that powerful. 😛
 
CMatt25 said:
Well except I would think it would matter if you believe repentance in their hearts is always possible with God until they take their last breath which Catholics do from what I know about the faith. So I’m thinking it may not be a great idea to risk alienating them further from your faith. If they end up severing all ties with your Church, what good have you done for them?
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They are alienating themselves. This is a rabbit hole but the point is describing beliefs can be important when pointing out error.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I would agree there. There just aren’t enough gay people that want to get married to move the economic needle.

I think marriage as an institution that has been in trouble for a LONG time and blaming it’s problems on gay people is another example of denial. Gay people aren’t responsible for hurricanes, wars, earthquakes, sinkholes or the decline in heterosexual marriages- it’s flattering but we simply aren’t that powerful. 😛
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Still, why is that equal-rights defenders don’t think about the importance of encouraging young men and women to get married and start a family?
 
CMatt25 said:
I have no idea either where that comes from. I’m not going to trouble over it too much though. As I see it and do the math, you’re right I believe. A fraction of less than 10% can’t possibly cause all this doom and gloom.
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I understand why people oppose SS marriage and feel that their faith compels them to express their opposition to it. However, to be honest, I wish more Catholics would speak out as forcefully against current divorce laws. If the issue is defending the Biblical definition of marriage and preventing civil efforts to undermine it - then I would think divorce laws would be a hot topic on this forum. But they’re not.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Still, why is that equal-rights defenders don’t think about the importance of encouraging young men and women to get married and start a family?
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So encourage them. Again, the small number of gay people getting married doesn’t make the encouragement of young men and women to get married and start a family illegal.

This is not a zero sum game.
 
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