Obama vs Romney, who are you voting for and why?

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the church demands we vote for the 'lesser of evils".
Where does the Church demand that we do that?

Let me take out some words of that sentence: “Church… for… evils”
Do you think the Church supports any politicians in China or Russia? If all the politicians are evil, the Church isn’t going to tell you to vote for either one of them.

Now, it’s arguable that Mitt Romney is evil or not. It’s just kind of funny how quickly Romney supporters will throw their own candidate under the bus and call him evil. Wow.

P.S.
Do you really live in Outer Mongolia? I seriously pray for the Catholic Church in Mongolia all the time (and all Christians there). Mongolia allows freedom of religion. So, I think the Church needs to take advantage of that so close to China… where obviously the Church is persecuted.
 
Does truth exist then? Or is it relative. Face it - in a binary, static system of truth, one of us is wrong. Culpability may be mitigated at times, but that does not change truth. I’m the one, you’re the zero. The same digit cannot occupy the same bit simultaneously.

No one truly believes truth is relative, because they (even you) adopt the position that “I am doing the right thing.” By definition, the notion that the truth you ascribe to could be relative is a logical fallacy with regards to your assuming the position you do.
Yes truth exists. Yes one or both of us is wrong at least on some things. We’ll find out when in faith He comes again. Or maybe for instance our Jewish friends here will be the ones proven right and He won’t be coming again. It’s faith.

Well thank you because I too often have been falsely called a relativist here. With just one caveat to what you said about me. You never hear me say I know with 100% certainty I am right on everything. That’s not my style. Because I don’t know that I am. I don’t believe because someone thinks they know and has faith and believes they know, means they actually do. Actually I’m probably more likely to say I’m probably wrong on something(s). And if wrong, in faith, in the end I pray the infinite understanding and mercy of the Almighty I believe in, knows my heart and I can be forgiven. Peace.
 
Or maybe for instance our Jewish friends here will be the ones proven right and He won’t be coming again. It’s faith.
.
Actually, if He doesn’t return (what we call the 2nd Coming, what they will call–momentarily–the 1st Coming), then the Jews will be proven wrong, too.😉
 
I imagine I’ll be voting for Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. They tend to lean more toward my way to thinking with the economy and our social system. Additionally, I’m a former business owner and relate more to Mitt Romney. But with that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if Obama wins the election. Regardless of who comes out on top, change will be coming to America that is outside of governments control - or anyone else’s in office for that matter.

Our old social blue system is breaking down, where large unions used to dominate work places, and politics also. Obama is a big government politician, an old Chicago politician some say. His way of running government used to be common. In todays internet/ automated world, the old blue model not longer works as it used to. It is a product of a by-gone era. That isn’t a bad thing. Our future remains bright I believe - just that there will be change.

Additionally, to add, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to pass on debts to younger generations.

Overall, thought this a nice historical article about our changing economic and political landscape in America and the west.

“Reader Mailbag: Taking History Seriously”

blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/09/22/reader-mailbag-taking-history-seriously/
 
You are exactly right here, this is not a court of law…this is much bigger and critical than that. A court room holds nothing to what awaits our distrust of God and disobedience. How long will God continue to bless our nation as we ask Him?
:hmmm: :newidea: :doh2: We should keep asking Lapey.

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you… 8, For every one that asketh, receiveth. 👍
 
Except just going by what I’ve read I’m not certain “never acceptable” means Catholics can never ever vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights. As you probably know the introductory of your bishops’ citizenship guide clearly states they do not give a scorecard of issues nor direction on how to vote.

I’ve also seen it shown on the forum opposition to intrinsic evil by Catholics can not be used to show indifference to other issues. The Catholic bishops in their guide list many serious moral issues. And that a Catholic can not vote for a candidate who favors abortion rights if the voter’s intent for doing so is to support abortion. But can if they are not doing so to support abortion and they find other grave moral reasons which overshadow intrinsic evil.

In Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, the bishops appear to list only two reasons where catholics may legitimately vote for a candidate who favors an intrinsic evil such as abortion.

1.There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil.(#35)

2.When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the
conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the
extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation,
may decide to vote for the candidate
deemed less likely to advance such
a morally flawed position and more
likely to pursue other authentic
human goods. (#36)

We don’t have to concern ourselves with the second reason, for the candidates and their parties position on abortion, euthanasia, and marriage is clear.

That leaves us with the first reason which would have to be for truly grave moral reasons.

In October of 2008 Bishop Vann (Diocese of Orange), along with his brother Bishop Kevin Farrell of Dallas, issued a joint statement clarifying the meaning of the USCCB’s Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship document. The statement asserted the absolute centrality of legalized abortion to our culture. "Therefore, we cannot make more clear the seriousness of the overriding issue of abortion - while not the ‘only issue’ - it is the defining moral issue, not only today, but of the last 35 years.

The bishops go on to say:
"Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, in paragraphs 34-37, addresses the question of whether it is morally permissible for a Catholic to vote for a candidate who supports an intrinsic evil - even when the voter does not agree with the candidate’s position on that evil. The only moral possibilities for a Catholic to be able to vote in good conscience for a candidate who supports this intrinsic evil are the following:

a. If both candidates running for office support abortion or “abortion rights,” a Catholic would be forced to then look at the other important issues and through their vote try to limit the evil done; or,

b. If another intrinsic evil outweighs the evil of abortion. While this is sound moral reasoning, there are no “truly grave moral” or “proportionate” reasons, singularly or combined, that could outweigh the millions of innocent human lives that are directly killed by legal abortion each year.

To vote for a candidate who supports the intrinsic evil of abortion or “abortion rights” when there is a morally acceptable alternative would be to cooperate in the evil - and, therefore, morally impermissible."

Consider also the following from Pope John Paul II.

Again, "Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf
of human rights—for example, the right to health, to home,
to work, to family, to culture—is false and illusory if the right to
life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition
for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum
determination. (Christifideles Laici, no. 38)

“To be actively pro-life is to contribute to the renewal of society through the promotion of the common good. It is impossible to further the common good without acknowledging and defending the right to life, upon which all the other inalienable rights of individuals are founded and from which they develop.” (Gospel of Life, Encyclical, #101)

“For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting … and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life” (Gen 9:5).
 
Both men have persecuted the Catholic Church. Both men are responsible for forcing Catholic hospitals to sin (IE: Scandal). It behooves me that we picked the only GOP candidate with an anti-Catholic record to be our nominee.

But, what’s done is done. If our system nominates two people who have wronged the Catholic Church, I say: that’s not a system I want to participate in.

Virgil Goode 2012. Always 100% pro-life. $0 in PAC money.

P.S.
Thank you for telling us how to think too.
You’re wrong, of course, in believing Romney has persecuted the Church or that he’s anti-Catholic. Romney actually vetoed a healthcare bill providing funding for abortion. It was passed over his veto.

You owe it to the people reading this to demonstrate that he’s anti-Catholic. Was he anti–Catholic in picking Ryan, perhaps?

But given that you believe such things, obviously you are not going to vote against the evil Obama actually does perpetrate. However, you shouldn’t encourage others to avoid struggling against evil. Remember that millstone thing.
 
I imagine I’ll be voting for Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. They tend to lean more toward my way to thinking with the economy and our social system. Additionally, I’m a former business owner and relate more to Mitt Romney. But with that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if Obama wins the election. Regardless of who comes out on top, change will be coming to America that is outside of governments control - or anyone else’s in office for that matter.

Our old social blue system is breaking down, where large unions used to dominate work places, and politics also. Obama is a big government politician, an old Chicago politician some say. His way of running government used to be common. In todays internet/ automated world, the old blue model not longer works as it used to. It is a product of a by-gone era. That isn’t a bad thing. Our future remains bright I believe - just that there will be change.

Additionally, to add, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to pass on debts to younger generations.

Overall, thought this a nice historical article about our changing economic and political landscape in America and the west.

“Reader Mailbag: Taking History Seriously”

blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/09/22/reader-mailbag-taking-history-seriously/
Interesting, though short, article. Thanks for it.

Frankly, while I agree with the central feature of the article; that the immediate post WWII conditions do not obtain anymore and we cannot return to them, I further agree that this is not to say despair is in order.

For whatever it’s worth, I might be so bold as to add the following:
-Contrary to popular belief, the old “middle class” has not lost membership due to declining fortunes, but to rising fortunes. More simply joined what we (depending on defninition) would call the “upper class”.
-In the immediate postwar economic world, wages were good, but only relative to what people had to spend money on and to the previous period. While there are some exceptions due to technolical changes (cars, for instance are far more complicated now) prices are not higher relative to what people earn. It may be noted that, adjusted for inflation, gasoline has always cost somewhere between $2.00 and $4.00/gallon. Food is cheaper, relatively speaking, as is clothing. Housing is actually cheaper relative to peoples’ ability to pay for them. When I was a kid, a 1500 s.f. house was a big house. Sure, it cost only about $15,000, but $600/month was a high wage too.
-What people really didn’t have a lot of in the immediate postwar period was wealth. They didn’t have a whole lot of debt compared to now, but neither did most people have any wealth to speak of.
-One thing that has changed adversely, in my opinion, is the vast array of consumer things people can now buy. Back in the “good old days”, there was a house, a car (almost always just one per family) a washer and dryer, a radio and a record player. That was about it for almost everybody. And, of course, people throw potential wealth at all the new things now, and don’t end up with a whole lot.
-But even so, a lot of people can acquire wealth, and do; wealth people did not have back in the day, even relatively speaking. I spoke to a man today who is buying some land for farming and ranching. He works at a machinery dealer. He’s a salesman. He’s also an auctioneer. Because he sometimes auctions houses, he also has a realtor’s license. I’m not sure how much land he owns, but I have personally seen him buy about 300 acres in the last two years. That land is probably worth no less than $800 or $900 thousand, and I know he has more land than that, in addition to serious machinery and a lot of cattle. He does have debts, but they’re manageable for him. I know a lot of people like him. He’s a “middle class person” who has, in terms of wealth, become an “upper class person”, though he sure doesn’t look it. So, while his wage at the machinery lot is far from princely, he doesn’t need a union card or a master’s degree or even a bachelor’s degree, because he has found the combination needed to acquire wealth; wealth that magnifies the fruits of his labor.

What’s the deal with those kinds of people? Well, they tend to work a lot. They tend to be fairly smart, though “knowledgeable” might be closer to it. And they live below their means, often significantly so. Most people didn’t live below their means in the immediate post war period, and it would have been a spare existence if they had. Give up the radio, the car, what? And what were their opportunities? The local savings bank that paid rates then no higher than now?

There are all forms of “wealth”. Education is one, but only one. But one only has to look around and see that of all the changes since WWII, perhaps one of the most dramatic is that we have become a “wealth society” more than I think people realize.

But I think a lot of people are not sufficiently knowledgeable to take advantage of that, nor do they have sufficient belief in it or respect for it to live below their means or to resolve that the only debt they will voluntarily undertake is to acquire wealth.

(continued)
 
Where does the Church demand that we do that?

Let me take out some words of that sentence: “Church… for… evils”
Do you think the Church supports any politicians in China or Russia? If all the politicians are evil, the Church isn’t going to tell you to vote for either one of them.

Now, it’s arguable that Mitt Romney is evil or not. It’s just kind of funny how quickly Romney supporters will throw their own candidate under the bus and call him evil. Wow.

P.S.
Do you really live in Outer Mongolia? I seriously pray for the Catholic Church in Mongolia all the time (and all Christians there). Mongolia allows freedom of religion. So, I think the Church needs to take advantage of that so close to China… where obviously the Church is persecuted.
Educate yourself before sinking deeper into embarrassment.

Formal versus Material Cooperation in Evil

Voters are rightly concerned about the degree to which their vote represents cooperation in the evil which a candidate embraces. Obviously, voting for a candidate whose principles exactly coincide with Catholic teaching would eliminate that worry. However, that is a rare, if not non-existent, situation. Even those who embrace Catholic principles may not always apply them correctly. The fact is that most candidates will imperfectly embrace Catholic principles and voting for ANY candidate contains many unknowns about what that candidate believes and will do.

The moral distinction between formal and material cooperation allows Catholics to choose imperfect candidates as the means of limiting evil or preventing the election of a worse candidate. The justification of doing that is described above. Formal cooperation is that degree of cooperation in which my will embraces the evil object of another 's will. Thus, to vote for a candidate because he favors abortion is formal cooperation in his evil political acts. However, to vote for someone in order to limit a greater evil, that is, to restrict in so far as possible the evil that another candidate might do if elected, is to have a good purpose in voting. The voter’s will has as its object this limitation of evil and not the evil which the imperfect politician might do in his less than perfect adherence to Catholic moral principles. Such cooperation is called material, and is permitted for a serious reason, such as preventing the election of a worse candidate. cf. Gospel of Life 74

The policy on abortion between the two men is the “lesser of two evils”. Be careful with reconstructing words by calling the man (Mitt Romney) evil.
 
(continued)

It is of real concern to me, and to people like the one I mentioned, that “wealth” is considered a dirty word in our political parlence now. And we have politicians who are determined to confiscate as much of it as possible. But if, indeed, we are in an era in which greater wealth is truly as necessary an ingredient to prosperity as a UAW card once was, they are doing exactly the wrong thing; just as wrong as if Congress had outlawed unions or new cars or savings and loans in 1948. If, indeed, the ingredients have changed, then today’s liberal politicians who preach against wealth are like Luddites breaking machinery so hand looms could flourish again.

Perhaps worse, politicians are encouraging people in the notion that there is something wrong with wealth. Most wealth in this country is not owned by the John Kerrys or the Warren Buffetts. Most is owned by people like my friend and a good number of others who are just like him on higher or lower scales.

I know a young woman who works in a feed mill. She saved a lot of her wages to buy a tractor, mower, rake and round baler. She does custom work in season on the side and is slowly but surely acquiring wealth. She, like some of the young men who also work there, haunts the country sales barns to buy the second-rate calves to raise on rented land. Someday they’ll be like my friend, perhaps wealthier, perhaps less so. But she will have capital…wealth, hard-won though it will be. What’s her advantage? Knowledge, for sure. Believing in her ability, certainly. Work, yes. Living below her means…definitely. The young woman could have bought a new Corvette with the cost of her machinery and gone tooling up and down the road with her friends. But she didn’t buy a Corvette. She acquired wealth that magnifies the fruits of her labor.

But those are rural people, you say? They have more opportunities? I don’t think so. In many ways they have less. What they really have is knowledge and the ability to be satisfied by consuming less than they produce. And they believe in the system and that the way it works is worthy of them.

Thank you for your patience, anyone who undertook this tedious read. I don’t pretend to know all the answers, but I think I know a few.
 
You’re wrong, of course, in believing Romney has persecuted the Church or that he’s anti-Catholic. Romney actually vetoed a healthcare bill providing funding for abortion. It was passed over his veto.

You owe it to the people reading this to demonstrate that he’s anti-Catholic. Was he anti–Catholic in picking Ryan, perhaps?

But given that you believe such things, obviously you are not going to vote against the evil Obama actually does perpetrate. However, you shouldn’t encourage others to avoid struggling against evil. Remember that millstone thing.
I owe it to you to prove he acted against the Catholic Church? Why, if you’re not going to change your vote? Eh… I guess other people reading this COULD change their vote… w/e… I can’t believe you’re making me post this. But, I’m compelled to because you seem to mention his veto like that some how exhonerates him. That’s what he and all the GOP people want you to think.

What he did in Massachusetts, along with the Legislature is far more complex than what you’re suggesting. If he meant that veto he would’ve listened to his Health and Human Services Department (who were clearly Catholic).

I’ve aleady done this countless times before: This is a post I made on March 7th, 2012:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9049663&postcount=7

And another one on March 6th:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9045818&postcount=851

The “millstone thing” is actually a crucial piece of Scripture in regards to all politicians who force Catholic hospitals to provide contraception. They have caused the Catholic hospitals to sin against their will. Thus, the blame falls on the lawmakers, not the hospitals. And it is they that Mark 9:42 speaks of.

“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.”
 
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I am voting for Mitt Romney. I have a few reasons for this:


  1. *]Obama has attacked our freedom of religion (the HHS contraceptive mandate)
    *]Obama is pro-abortion.
    *]Obama is for redefining marriage.
    *]I more fully support Mitt Romney’s economical views.
    *]I more fully support Mitt Romney’s social and moral views than I do Obama’s.
 
To me that is the only reason I even pay attention to the GOP. If it wasn’t for the libertarian leanings, I wouldn’t even pay attention to them.
I like the message at the bottom of all your postings. If only ALL Catholics could understand this!
 
A question I have to ask: has ANY Republican president stopped abortion?

I’m not for abortion or same-sex marriage but I also am not for oppressing the poor and I can not support a non-Christian as leader of our country. So I’ll probably be voting for Obama. I will then be praying that America does not turn her back on Israel.🙂
 
A question I have to ask: has ANY Republican president stopped abortion?

I’m not for abortion or same-sex marriage but I also am not for oppressing the poor and I can not support a non-Christian as leader of our country. So I’ll probably be voting for Obama. I will then be praying that America does not turn her back on Israel.🙂
No, BUT, President Bush DID sign a law banning a certain type of late term abortion. And please…do you REALLY think Obama will help the poor? The TAX/FINE in the Obama Care will really hurt them…think about that…if they can’t afford to purchase health care, they get fined…i mean taxed…and then that would NOT be good.

Please also remember that whomever wins may be appointing Supreme Court Justices and if we want ANY chance to OVERTURN Roe Vs Wade…we can’t affford to have Obama for another 4 years…because he would appoint justices that support aboriton. We also have to consider all the lawsuits against the HHS mandate that are pending…

Please think carefully before you vote…our country’s future…and the future of this nation’s children is at stake. Obama is very pro abortion and does NOT want to defund Planned Parenthood EVER…he would veto any bill defunding them (And keep in mind that Planned Parenthood receives MILLIONS of Tax $…Your Tax dollars!)

The Democrat party of today is NOT the one of FDR…its much worse!

Do you really believe that Paul Ryan, the VP nominee, hates the poor? I would much rather help the poor through Saint Vincent De Paul, a Catholic Food Pantry or Catholic Social Services/Charities than have the GOVERNMENT…because while there are some that are truly poor that are on food stamps…ther are also those who are frauding the system (and using food stamps for alcohol and cigarettes and NOT food!)

Paul Ryan’s budget only increases food stamps by 8%…not the 12% that Obama wanted…he does not take the program away.

We are trillions in Debt…Do you believe Obama will get a budget passed? His budget was even rejected by HIS OWN PARTY!
 
A question I have to ask: has ANY Republican president stopped abortion?

I’m not for abortion or same-sex marriage but I also am not for oppressing the poor and I can not support a non-Christian as leader of our country. So I’ll probably be voting for Obama. I will then be praying that America does not turn her back on Israel.🙂
Yes republican presidents have done things to move towards ending abortion. It takes a majority of Supreme Court justices to right the wrong done in Roe vs Wade. Where do you think the 4 pro-life justices come from? The frustrating part is a couple of others who were appointed by reps turned their nose to the issue after getting there.

The next justice or two will determine the legality of abortion for another generation. President Obama’s appointments have secured their point of view.

If you do choose to become Catholic, learn what She teaches and form your conscience with sound doctrine.
 
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Just a note of thanks…thanks for leaving this thread active. For the most part it has been charitable.
 
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