Obama vs Romney, who are you voting for and why?

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Al_Moritz said:
I am not at all wrong.

Here is what the bishops said, from the USCCB voter’s guide:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-one.cfm
  1. Decisions about political life are complex and require the exercise of a well-formed conscience aided by prudence. This exercise of conscience begins with outright opposition to laws and other policies that violate human life or weaken its protection. Those who knowingly, willingly, and directly support public policies or legislation that undermine fundamental moral principles cooperate with evil.
…]
  1. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter’s intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.
  2. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental?moral evil.
If you read carefully, all this is precisely in line with Cardinal Ratzinger’s (the current Pope’s) document:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfworthycom.htm

[N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.]
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To understand the quote you have to understand what proportionate reasons are

Bishop Gracida
Since abortion and euthanasia have been defined by the Church as the most serious sins prevalent in our society, what kind of reasons could possibly be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion? None of the reasons commonly suggested could even begin to be proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for such a candidate. Reasons such as the candidate’s position on war, or taxes, or the death penalty, or immigration, or a national health plan, or social security, or AIDS, or homosexuality, or marriage, or any similar burning societal issues of our time are simply lacking in proportionality.
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There is only one thing that could be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion, and that is the protection of innocent human life. That may seem to be contradictory, but it is not.
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Only proportionate reason to vote for a pro abortion candidate would be if you had 2 pro abortion candidates. Example, candidate A supports unrestricted abortion, candidate B supports abortion in cases of rape and incest. You would vote for Candidate B to save some lives in the hope that that this candidate would pass restrictions on demand abortion, that is proportionate reason
 
_Abyssinia said:
To understand the quote you have to understand what proportionate reasons are
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These are all interpretations that are not brought forth by the USCCB and Cardinal Ratzinger for the obvious reason of letting the voter’s conscience decide (the Pope John Paul II quote is out of place here, since it does not directly touch on the issue of proportionate reasons). Anyway, let’s go with Bishop Galante:

Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions.

As I have already outlined, I believe that this would be the case in an Obama vs. Romney Presidency, since in my view Romney’s policies would provoke economic downward pressure that in turn would provoke more abortions. You may disagree with my political view, but that is not the point. The point is that this legitimate political view of mine is morally allowed to influence the choice of my personal conscience.
 
Al_Moritz said:
These are all interpretations that are not brought forth by the USCCB and Cardinal Ratzinger for the obvious reason of letting the voter’s conscience decide (the Pope John Paul II quote is out of place here, since it does not directly touch on the issue of proportionate reasons). Anyway, let’s go with Bishop Galante:

Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions.

As I have already outlined, I believe that this would be the case in an Obama vs. Romney Presidency, since in my view Romney’s policies would provoke economic downward pressure that in turn would provoke more abortions. You may disagree with my political view, but that is not the point. The point is that this legitimate political view of mine is morally allowed to influence the choice of my personal conscience.
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Well, there you go. Is there any doubt that Romney would do more than Obama in this area? He has a pro-life record, when he was governor.
 
rlg94086 said:
Well, there you go. Is there any doubt that Romney would do more than Obama in this area? He has a pro-life record, when he was governor.
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Yes, I do have doubts. If you would have closely followed my reasoning, you would know why.

And by the way, your post missed my point.
 
Al_Moritz said:
Yes, I do have doubts. If you would have closely followed my reasoning, you would know why.

And by the way, your post missed my point.
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As a Catholic, keep it simple, vote for the man that will do less harm to the unborn. Even if it’s just a verbal from Romney, it projects a culture of life. This is what the church asks us to do. Is pope John Paul II encyclical unclear that espouses the limitation of evil when voting.
 
Al_Moritz said:
Yes, I do have doubts. If you would have closely followed my reasoning, you would know why.

And by the way, your post missed my point.
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I didn’t miss your mental gymnastics, at all. There is no rational basis to believe that Obama would do more than Romney to end abortion on demand.
 
I have to say I’m shocked at the confusion and / or stubbornness of so-called practicing Catholics who think it’s somehow morally acceptable to cast a vote for a pro-abortion candidate. The right to life issue trumps all issues in my mind.
 
Tommy72 said:
I have to say I’m shocked at the confusion and / or stubbornness of so-called practicing Catholics who think it’s somehow morally acceptable to cast a vote for a pro-abortion candidate. The right to life issue trumps all issues in my mind.
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So you disagree with the USCCB’s statement (see above) about “other morally grave reasons”, and you disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger (the current Pope)?
 
johnnyjones said:
As a Catholic, keep it simple, vote for the man that will do less harm to the unborn. Even if it’s just a verbal from Romney, it projects a culture of life. This is what the church asks us to do. Is pope John Paul II encyclical unclear that espouses the limitation of evil when voting.
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So let me get this straight-even if a candidate (not necessarily Romney, but any candidate) simply SAYS that they are Pro life, all Catholics MUST vote for them?

What is it, a magic formula? Say the right words and a whole block of voters will run to the polls for you?

If that’s what your conscience dictates, I’m certainly not going to try and force you to do otherwise, but I would hope that you’d think that through before you vote for someone who says the right words and you ignore everything else they do.
 
Seeker1961 said:
So let me get this straight-even if a candidate (not necessarily Romney, but any candidate) simply SAYS that they are Pro life, all Catholics MUST vote for them?

What is it, a magic formula? Say the right words and a whole block of voters will run to the polls for you?

If that’s what your conscience dictates, I’m certainly not going to try and force you to do otherwise, but I would hope that you’d think that through before you vote for someone who says the right words and you ignore everything else they do.
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Well said.
 
Tommy72 said:
I have to say I’m shocked at the confusion and / or stubbornness of so-called practicing Catholics who think it’s somehow morally acceptable to cast a vote for a pro-abortion candidate. The right to life issue trumps all issues in my mind.
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The mental gymnastics are stunning,aren’t they?:eek:
 
The Church teaches that one must make choices and act according to one’s conscience. But, She also teaches that each of us has the responsibility to form our conscience according to the Truth as taught by Christ through His Church. If an individual hasn’t formed his conscience according to the Truth, he can be, and often is, in the state of sin and sometimes even mortal sin.
 
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