Obama won Catholic vote, regular churchgoers chose Romney [CC]

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After what Ridgerunner posted about the differences that the Bush Administration (REPUBLICANS) versus what the Democrats have done, I don’t know how you can honestly say that one is no better than the other.

BTW you allege that our hard language is uncharitable and is not likely to get more people to “our side”. The facts don’t agree with you on this. Since Roe vs Wade more people are pro life than pro choice for the first time ever.
Quite simple, his example were between Bush and Obama. Romney on the other hand once stated, ‘I am more pro choice than Ted Kennedy.’ He changed views, with political aspirations. It’s one thing to tell you support an evil truthfully, it’s no better to lie and say you don’t support it for political gain.

I believe I even addressed that with my previous post responding to Ridge’s post, along with some questionable allowances by Bush. There’s a full commitment, and then there’s placating a cause to keep it for future use.
 
For the people who claim to have voted for Obama for “social issue” purposes such as sympathy and compassion, I understand and sypathize with their perspective. However there is a fundemental flaw in this perspective.

There is a blood from a rock philosophy here. The democratic party boasts to be more willing to “help the poor”. The question is not what is in their heart the question is what is in their wallet.

Romney, ran on the principle of boosting the economy therefore enabling those who want to help themselves to do so. If this were successful even those who do want a handout are in a better position for getting it in the long term

Obama ran on the principle of helping the needy (or perhaps doing a better job of helping the needy). However his pockets are empty. How much longer can he dole out when there is nothing (or 16 trillion dollars less then nothing) to dole out?

What is it about the debt people who voted for Obama did not understand? The solution is not to “tax the rich”, there is not enough apples in that bag.
Growth, is the only logical answer.

Having said this, I believe in what Holy Mother Church teaches. Even if Obama had the means to write a 16 trillion dollar check towards paying off the debt, I still think we should all go down with the ship before we slaughter another beautiful baby, let alone millions more.
What is it about the debt people who voted for Obama did not understand? is a question. Once I was watching Bob Beckel discuss the National Debt on Hannity and Beckel said “You conservatives make a big deal out of this”, this was probably about 18 months ago.

So I think there is indeed a lot of sentiment that this is not a real danger or an overrated danger.

Too, I saw a pundit mention again this morning that the “47%” statement was a real big error, implying some are lazy, etc. a basic reason for Romney’s failure. I’m unsure of the impact but if so, unfortunate. I’m not sure if the original quote actually says this.
 
I read that you are an EMS. I am not trying to discredit you or the work you do.

I am merely pointing out that some of these people have very specialized training and responsibility. As such, we can’t expect to pay them minimum wage.
You know why you chose the verbiage you used and I’m not going to try and argue it. I was only trying to get you to understand that most people are smart enough to see through language like that, and some will even attribute it to fanaticism, which hurts a cause more than it can help a cause. If our actions caused a person to entrench in an evil, would our actions make us complicit? Many on these forums say voting does that very thing. Either is based on intent, and only we know our own intent, as does Christ.

Many ‘specialized’ medical practices can, and do, turn patients away based on the patient’s ability to pay.

Are we a great country or not? If we truly are, we can provide a healthcare system to our citizens that is second to none. As it is right now, there is much advantage for citizens of other countries based on their healthcare systems.
 
What I said is that if you’re Catholic, you can’t go picking and choosing what you believe. We actually have a responsibility to challenge our brothers and sisters in love (and to be challenged on our own) regarding the Faith. And when you call me “fundamentalist” in my perspectives, you accuse me. Fundamentalism has nothing to with Catholicism and is an invention based on a series of “fundamentals” that Protestants hold to. I’m a Catholic.

I don’t need Buddhism to inform my Catholic Faith.There’s only one Truth and that is Jesus Christ. He only founded One Church and when its members participate in it, implicit in that free-will decision to participate is the assent to believe all that it teaches.
If you are “Catholic” (universal) then you are aware that the Spirit moves in all of creation and God’s sun shines on all of his creation. Anything short of that is just fundamentalism.
 
What is it about the debt people who voted for Obama did not understand? is a question. Once I was watching Bob Beckel discuss the National Debt on Hannity and Beckel said “You conservatives make a big deal out of this”, this was probably about 18 months ago.

So I think there is indeed a lot of sentiment that this is not a real danger or an overrated danger.

Too, I saw a pundit mention again this morning that the “47%” statement was a real big error, implying some are lazy, etc. a basic reason for Romney’s failure. I’m unsure of the impact but if so, unfortunate. I’m not sure if the original quote actually says this.
One problem might have been that people refused to discuss other issues and only stated they were not as important as the non negotiable issues. It speaks loudly to see remorse behind the other issues now that the election is actually over.
 
There we go. We agree on abortion. Now, let’s move to the other issues people looked at that caused them to vote the way they did. Is there no middle ground on social justice issues? We don’t have an election breathing down our necks at this moment. By example we can show that other issues are not as important as abortion and have our politicians make concessions on those issues, so they won’t be a distraction next election. Isn’t that what we should do?
No, this is no good. This is Obama’s formulation at Notre Dame, i.e. “Abortion is off the table. Now, what other positions of mine can we agree on?”

If there’s no respect for life, there’s no respect for anything. That, to me, is the threshold issue for coming to any kind of accommodation.

But okay, “social justice issues”

It is my position that this country treats the poorest of the poor shabbily. Bare essential of life and not much more; sometimes not even that. Those people are the disabled needy; the ones who must impoverish themselves to obtain any benefits at all. Neither party has done anything for them for decades. How about improving SSI, which is about $600/month? Let’s say, to $1200, and see how that goes?

To pay for that, how about if we do away entirely with the Dept of Education? Education is, or ought to be, locally controlled and financed. If some school districts are too poor to provide schools if they tax at an average rate, then perhaps they should simply be given a check by the Treasury Dept. Just like that. No middlemen. I’m sure the school administrators would be happy to submit the paperwork, certified by the county collector and the County commission in each county.

And we could raise at least a little money by defunding Planned Parenthood, abortions and abortifacients under any program at all, NPR and the National Endowment for the Arts. Considering the obscene profanations of religion the latter supports, it’s only a matter of time, it would seem, before they offend Muslims and get someone killed, not so?

And perhaps a bit or two could be raised if private foundations were taxed like any other corporation, whether they are rightist or leftist or middlest. Possibly, too, university endowments that constantly gain money, own stupefying fortunes and don’t give enough scholarships to legitimately claim any reason for having the endowments (e.g. Harvard, well, the whole Ivy League and then some, actually) could be taxed on their endowment income.

Possibly donations to private foundations should not be deductible at all? Think of the taxes Bill Gates and Warren Buffett will never have to pay (nor their estates) because they gave huge sums (mostly in appreciated stocks) to private foundations that do their bidding. So, you don’t like Rupert Murdoch? Do the same to him.

Eliminating the current administration’s increase in funding “well care”, which recent studies suggest are essentially without value in preventing disease, and also restoring its reduction in funding of care for “chronic” patients. Chronic patients are overrepresented among the poor. All disabled people are “chronic” patients by definition.

Oh, how could I forget elimination of tobacco subsidies. That too. And then there’s the ethanol subsidy.

Probably even I could come up with more things if i put thought to it. But I really did like the “Romney test” for deciding whether to eliminate or continue a government program. One would ask “Is this worth borrowing the money from China for?”

Oh yes. Phasing out FNMA and FHLMC entirely. Also FHA guaranteed loans. Forcing the SBA and FSA to actually underwrite loan guarantees before giving them. This country is going to lose unimaginably huge sums because of those programs. FNMA and FHLMC were once good programs, but they’re no longer even needed because banks and private corporations now do the very same thing,but do it better.

Sell the government’s interest in GM. Yes, I know, it’s in a multibillion loss position because the investing public knows GM is only breathing with life support. But the hit will probably be worse later, and the government could use the money.

Impose a ten year moratorium on any legislator, bureaucrat, general or admiral or acquisitions officer, from serving as a lobbyist at all, after serving in his public office.

And how about dollar-for-dollar pension offsets for double and triple and quadruple dippers?

On the subject of retirement, why not scale down SS for those making, oh, let’s start with $150,000/year. Maybe the means test for Medicare should be as high as, ummmm, $500,000/year, at least to start.

Now, once we have provided for the defense of the nation and have provided decently for the truly poor who can’t help themselves, which the Church says is the first priority, we can then look at whether there is a compelling reason to allocate scarce resources in other ways.
 
If you are “Catholic” (universal) then you are aware that the Spirit moves in all of creation and God’s sun shines on all of his creation. Anything short of that is just fundamentalism.
It says in the Bible that not everyone is given the same gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves through all of God’s creation, but the Holy Spirit gift of infallibility rests solely with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Christ said to Peter, “on this rock I will build my Church”. He didn’t say on this rock I will build my churches. And our Pope is the only one who is the successor to Peter and who therefore carries on that office.
 
You know why you chose the verbiage you used and I’m not going to try and argue it. I was only trying to get you to understand that most people are smart enough to see through language like that, and some will even attribute it to fanaticism, which hurts a cause more than it can help a cause. If our actions caused a person to entrench in an evil, would our actions make us complicit? Many on these forums say voting does that very thing. Either is based on intent, and only we know our own intent, as does Christ.
I am not a fanatic. I am merely pointing out that many people are married to certain causes and will not budge.
Many ‘specialized’ medical practices can, and do, turn patients away based on the patient’s ability to pay.

Are we a great country or not? If we truly are, we can provide a healthcare system to our citizens that is second to none. As it is right now, there is much advantage for citizens of other countries based on their healthcare systems.
I have never seen anyone I know in the medical profession turned away for inability to pay. In fact, it has been quite the opposite - they will do all that they legally can to treat people.
 
No, this is no good. This is Obama’s formulation at Notre Dame, i.e. “Abortion is off the table. Now, what other positions of mine can we agree on?”

If there’s no respect for life, there’s no respect for anything. That, to me, is the threshold issue for coming to any kind of accommodation.

But okay, “social justice issues”

It is my position that this country treats the poorest of the poor shabbily. Bare essential of life and not much more; sometimes not even that. Those people are the disabled needy; the ones who must impoverish themselves to obtain any benefits at all. Neither party has done anything for them for decades. How about improving SSI, which is about $600/month? Let’s say, to $1200, and see how that goes?

To pay for that, how about if we do away entirely with the Dept of Education? Education is, or ought to be, locally controlled and financed. If some school districts are too poor to provide schools if they tax at an average rate, then perhaps they should simply be given a check by the Treasury Dept. Just like that. No middlemen. I’m sure the school administrators would be happy to submit the paperwork, certified by the county collector and the County commission in each county.

And we could raise at least a little money by defunding Planned Parenthood, abortions and abortifacients under any program at all, NPR and the National Endowment for the Arts. Considering the obscene profanations of religion the latter supports, it’s only a matter of time, it would seem, before they offend Muslims and get someone killed, not so?

And perhaps a bit or two could be raised if private foundations were taxed like any other corporation, whether they are rightist or leftist or middlest. Possibly, too, university endowments that constantly gain money, own stupefying fortunes and don’t give enough scholarships to legitimately claim any reason for having the endowments (e.g. Harvard, well, the whole Ivy League and then some, actually) could be taxed on their endowment income.

Possibly donations to private foundations should not be deductible at all? Think of the taxes Bill Gates and Warren Buffett will never have to pay (nor their estates) because they gave huge sums (mostly in appreciated stocks) to private foundations that do their bidding. So, you don’t like Rupert Murdoch? Do the same to him.

Eliminating the current administration’s increase in funding “well care”, which recent studies suggest are essentially without value in preventing disease, and also restoring its reduction in funding of care for “chronic” patients. Chronic patients are overrepresented among the poor. All disabled people are “chronic” patients by definition.

Oh, how could I forget elimination of tobacco subsidies. That too. And then there’s the ethanol subsidy.

Probably even I could come up with more things if i put thought to it. But I really did like the “Romney test” for deciding whether to eliminate or continue a government program. One would ask “Is this worth borrowing the money from China for?”

Oh yes. Phasing out FNMA and FHLMC entirely. Also FHA guaranteed loans. Forcing the SBA and FSA to actually underwrite loan guarantees before giving them. This country is going to lose unimaginably huge sums because of those programs. FNMA and FHLMC were once good programs, but they’re no longer even needed because banks and private corporations now do the very same thing,but do it better.

Sell the government’s interest in GM. Yes, I know, it’s in a multibillion loss position because the investing public knows GM is only breathing with life support. But the hit will probably be worse later, and the government could use the money.

Impose a ten year moratorium on any legislator, bureaucrat, general or admiral or acquisitions officer, from serving as a lobbyist at all, after serving in his public office.

And how about dollar-for-dollar pension offsets for double and triple and quadruple dippers?

On the subject of retirement, why not scale down SS for those making, oh, let’s start with $150,000/year. Maybe the means test for Medicare should be as high as, ummmm, $500,000/year, at least to start.

Now, once we have provided for the defense of the nation and have provided decently for the truly poor who can’t help themselves, which the Church says is the first priority, we can then look at whether there is a compelling reason to allocate scarce resources in other ways.
Believe it or not, there is middle ground in all of this; even through the apparent condescension.

That’s all I’m saying and trying to make a point of. If our politicians weren’t so far to the right, or to the far left, most Americans are in the middle. The first politician that figures it out will find a lot of support, if he can get by the self interests of people to make it as the nominee of a party.
 
I’ll be back later to catch up…right now I’m going build a duck blind, season opens in the morning!!! Me and my youngest son (17) will be chasing birds in the marsh tomorrow rather than on CAF…later!
 
Jim,
Lapey and I posted much of the Catechism’s teaching on conscience. No one has claimed freedom from the teaching, but the teaching excludes one person telling another that their conscience is wrong. You give an absolute. Voting is not absolute in that we know the intent of any person, good or evil.

I believe the Church does not support a candidate because of the remote possibility of a person later proving to be truly evil and the position it would put the Church in having supported such a person.

On the matter of conscience the Catechism specifically states one should not be forced against their conscience, and it also tells us that one must act according to their conscience under penalty of condemnation.

While it speaks of the advice of others, it does not insinuate one person stating another person’s conscience is wrong and should not be followed.
I agree that (a) everyone has freedom of conscience and (b) must not be forced to act against their conscience, and (c) no one can know the intent of another.

None of that makes the moral law relative, nor does it remove the need to correctly form one’s conscience.

A conscience which makes incorrect moral judgments is in effect making incorrect statements of the moral law. Does one have a positive obligation to leave someone in ignorance about an incorrect conscience? I don’t thinks so. I would say that one has a positive obligation to correct error.

That doesn’t mean I can accuse anyone of sin, precisely because I can’t judge intent. But I can correct incorrect moral judgments.

Note, I don’t say I can tell anyone who to vote for. But if conscience is incorrectly formed, it should certainly be corrected.
 
Not so, the wealthy pay a less percentage of the average citizen. Didn’t Romney’s tax forms show he paid less than the average American? So as not to appear partisan, as some jump to say, I’m sure Obama’s tax returns would show the same.

Didn’t Buffet say he pays less percentage than his secretary?
This again is a straw man arguement… You obviously do not understand how the tax system works… Yes Romney and Buffet paid less in INCOME tax than the average citizen because they DO NOT recieve an income… They are taxed on capital gains which is the lilfe blood of capitalism… By the way the bottom 50% of wage earners pay NOTHING in income taxes. its all symantics and word games with the democrats… Thats how they fool the masses. The love the useful idiots who refuse to educate themselves
 
For the people who claim to have voted for Obama for “social issue” purposes such as sympathy and compassion, I understand and sypathize with their perspective. However there is a fundemental flaw in this perspective.

There is a blood from a rock philosophy here. The democratic party boasts to be more willing to “help the poor”. The question is not what is in their heart the question is what is in their wallet.

Romney, ran on the principle of boosting the economy therefore enabling those who want to help themselves to do so. If this were successful even those who do want a handout are in a better position for getting it in the long term

Obama ran on the principle of helping the needy (or perhaps doing a better job of helping the needy). However his pockets are empty. How much longer can he dole out when there is nothing (or 16 trillion dollars less then nothing) to dole out?

What is it about the debt people who voted for Obama did not understand? The solution is not to “tax the rich”, there is not enough apples in that bag.

Growth, is the only logical answer.

Having said this, I believe in what Holy Mother Church teaches. Even if Obama had the means to write a 16 trillion dollar check towards paying off the debt, I still think we should all go down with the ship before we slaughter another beautiful baby, let alone millions more.
If you taxed 100% on everybody earning over $250000 annually you would get $1.4 trillion

I think that would keep the goverment running for 141 days

If you tax everybody earning more than $1 million at 100% you would take in $800 billion. There will be a $20 trillion debt 2016 with the current trajectory say CBO

‘Tax the wealthy’ is a populist argument made by democrats such as Obama. It does not work, the problem is too much spending by the government
 
I am not a fanatic. I am merely pointing out that many people are married to certain causes and will not budge.
I did not mean it was fanatical, but trying to tell you how a non believer might perceive it.
I have never seen anyone I know in the medical profession turned away for inability to pay. In fact, it has been quite the opposite - they will do all that they legally can to treat people.
I work in the industry. It exists. County hospitals are only obligated to stabilize and send you home. If you need life saving medical treatments, they cost and can turn patients down based on their ability to pay.
 
I’ll be back later to catch up…right now I’m going build a duck blind, season opens in the morning!!! Me and my youngest son (17) will be chasing birds in the marsh tomorrow rather than on CAF…later!
Be safe! No Duck Dynasty stunts out there. 😃
 
If you taxed 100% on everybody earning over $25000 annually you would get $1.4 trillion

I think that would keep the goverment running for 141 days

If you tax everybody earning more than $1 million at 100% you would take in $800 billion. There will be a $20 trillion debt 2016 with the current trajectory say CBO

‘Tax the wealthy’ is a populist argument made by democrats such as Obama. It solves few actual problems
youtube.com/watch?v=661pi6K-8WQ&feature=plcp
 
I didn’t vote for Obama mainly because he’s economically illiterate.
 
I agree that (a) everyone has freedom of conscience and (b) must not be forced to act against their conscience, and (c) no one can know the intent of another.

None of that makes the moral law relative, nor does it remove the need to correctly form one’s conscience.

A conscience which makes incorrect moral judgments is in effect making incorrect statements of the moral law. Does one have a positive obligation to leave someone in ignorance about an incorrect conscience? I don’t thinks so. I would say that one has a positive obligation to correct error.

That doesn’t mean I can accuse anyone of sin, precisely because I can’t judge intent. But I can correct incorrect moral judgments.

Note, I don’t say I can tell anyone who to vote for. But if conscience is incorrectly formed, it should certainly be corrected.
1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:
Code:
**We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.52 **
1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.
1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.
1789 Some rules apply in every case:
  • One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
  • the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56
  • charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: "Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ."57 Therefore "it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble."58
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60
Code:
The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61
We are all growing and evolving towards a good. We cannot judge others for where they may be in their walks. We can take their hand and walk with them, knowing we will make some mistakes, and they will make some mistakes. Being supportive of each other does not mean taking a big stick and walloping each other to get points across. Love and charity in all things.

People who voted a particular way did not do it maliciously, as is being insinuated by some. People did not vote a particular to intentionally do a sin, if it were truly a sin to begin with.

My point is being made on many of this ‘post election’ threads on these forums. There is clearly lacks of charity, love, or any kind of real compassionate support.
 
This again is a straw man arguement… You obviously do not understand how the tax system works… Yes Romney and Buffet paid less in INCOME tax than the average citizen because they DO NOT recieve an income… They are taxed on capital gains which is the lilfe blood of capitalism… By the way the bottom 50% of wage earners pay NOTHING in income taxes. its all symantics and word games with the democrats… Thats how they fool the masses. The love the useful idiots who refuse to educate themselves
Thanks. I prefer to be a hard working idiot. I think a fair tax would be on expenditures, and not on incomes. Tax people on what they spend and be done with it. That way any time any of us buys a private jet, we pay our fair share accordingly. 😛
 
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MillTownCath:
I can’t wait until ignorant old Catholics like you die off.
That is a really horrible thing to say to someone.
 
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