Obediance to Bishops, Essential for Salvation?

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Joe65436:
Do you have any suggested readings that might be helpful for me regarding the role of Bishops?
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When in doubt, the Catholic Encyclopedia is always a good place to start.
 
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digitonomy:
I believe I read that the diocese (eparchy) was planning to make every effort to assist its members in obtaining conscientious objector status.

I can’t rule out the possibility that the bishop was exceeding his authority, but I don’t think there’s firm footing on the grounds you state. A soldier is not obligated to follow orders to commit a grave and serious sin. If you’re ordered to round up the Jews to send them off to the gas chamber, you’re not morally obligated to do so, and this is true regardless of whether your bishop speaks on the issue. If the order is merely questionable, well you can’t have soldiers wantonly opposing every little thing. I’m not well-read on Catholic just war theory, but I suspect Bishop Botean is, and the phrase “objectively grave evil” that he uses is probably well-rooted and discussed in Catholic teaching on this issue.
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I realize you are not required to follow immoral orders. But I know the Church says something about this, it has come up (my priest quoted the teaching) during this whole situation…it might of been from the catechism.

Since the Pope has not come out and said what this Bishop did, then I question that the Bishop was right when he used the language he did. It seems to me that he might of been exceeding his authority…it may be his personal opinion, however the Church has not said what he did.

SV
 
St Veronica:
Since the Pope has not come out and said what this Bishop did, then I question that the Bishop was right when he used the language he did. It seems to me that he might of been exceeding his authority…it may be his personal opinion, however the Church has not said what he did.
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I hear you. Here’s a sentence I had edited out where he tries to head off your objection:
Please be aware that I am not speaking to you as a theologian or as a private Christian voicing his opinion, nor by any means am I speaking to you as a political partisan. I am speaking to you solely as your bishop with the authority …
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I think we can look at it as similar to federalism in the US. The Vatican can overrule decisions and stances taken by local bishops, or it can issue definitive teachings or guidelines with which the bishop must comply. However, in the absence of such guidance, the local [diocesan] authority obtains.

It is important that this be the case; that bishops have authority to do as they see fit on issues where the Vatican has not taken a position or issued rulings. There may be local injustice, evil, or simply difficulties in the running of the church that the bishop in his authority can prevent, but where waiting for Rome to speak might perpetuate the problem.

Here, Bishop Botean does not have unique local authority on the issue; his authority on the matter is duplicated in every diocese in the country. Perhaps there should be canon law restricting bishops from making such pronouncements of a national character. But I don’t think there are such canons, so his exercise of authority to “bind and loose” seems to me both licit and valid, however “out there” his opinion may seem to us.
 
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digitonomy:
I hear you. Here’s a sentence I had edited out where he tries to head off your objection:I think we can look at it as similar to federalism in the US. The Vatican can overrule decisions and stances taken by local bishops, or it can issue definitive teachings or guidelines with which the bishop must comply. However, in the absence of such guidance, the local [diocesan] authority obtains.

It is important that this be the case; that bishops have authority to do as they see fit on issues where the Vatican has not taken a position or issued rulings. There may be local injustice, evil, or simply difficulties in the running of the church that the bishop in his authority can prevent, but where waiting for Rome to speak might perpetuate the problem.

Here, Bishop Botean does not have unique local authority on the issue; his authority on the matter is duplicated in every diocese in the country. Perhaps there should be canon law restricting bishops from making such pronouncements of a national character. But I don’t think there are such canons, so his exercise of authority to “bind and loose” seems to me both licit and valid, however “out there” his opinion may seem to us.
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To clarify (for others who might not grasp this) the Bishop has no authority outside his dioceses.

I still uneasy about whether or not he has the authority to say something like this when the Vatican hasn’t. Which Bishop was this?

SV
 
St Veronica:
I still uneasy about whether or not he has the authority to say something like this when the Vatican hasn’t. Which Bishop was this?
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I’ll give that link again, for the 2003 Lent message from John Botean, Bishop for the Romanian Byzantine Faithful of the United States (Eparchy of Canton).
 
Between, ECF’s, The Catholic Encyclopdeia, Canon Law, and the Saints, I think I will be spending quite some time reading about my church. Did I forget to mention the scriptures, O my.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

In my opinion, love perfects everything. If I loved God, I would be in communion with the Church - automatically. I think that’s pretty much the same for everyone else too. Sounds simple, but to often becomes complicated.

Peace of Christ.
 
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digitonomy:
That was my general feeling. So if my bishop said this, I am obligated to obey? Etc Etc
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Yes if he said that you are obligated to obey. The Pope has stated that the war against Iraq is morally unjustifiable and your Bisop is doing his duty to protect the souls in his charge. If you are a member of that Eparchy then ACTIVE support or participation in the war is would be objevctively sinfull.
 
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metal1633:
Yes if he said that you are obligated to obey. The Pope has stated that the war against Iraq is morally unjustifiable and your Bisop is doing his duty to protect the souls in his charge. If you are a member of that Eparchy then ACTIVE support or participation in the war is would be objevctively sinfull.
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Please provide documentation where the pope has said that the war in Iraq is ‘morally unjustifible’.

SV
 
St Veronica:
Please provide documentation where the pope has said that the war in Iraq is ‘morally unjustifible’.

SV
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On Wedsday March 3rd a Vatican envoy carried the pope’s message to the White House that a U.S.-led war against Iraq would be “unjust and illegal.” Pope John Paul II has regularly preached against the war and asked Catholics worldwide to fast and pray for peace. He said the war would be a “defeat for humanity” and would be neither morally nor legally justified.
The Pope also questioned the President’s statements invoking God’s name as justification for the invasion. The Pope also said. “Man cannot march into war and assume God will be at his side.”

Bush told him he was wrong.
 
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metal1633:
On Wedsday March 3rd a Vatican envoy carried the pope’s message to the White House that a U.S.-led war against Iraq would be “unjust and illegal.” Pope John Paul II has regularly preached against the war and asked Catholics worldwide to fast and pray for peace. He said the war would be a “defeat for humanity” and would be neither morally nor legally justified.
The Pope also questioned the President’s statements invoking God’s name as justification for the invasion. The Pope also said. “Man cannot march into war and assume God will be at his side.”

Bush told him he was wrong.
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Link/website where you got this info please.

Thanks,

SV
 
From Catholic News, March 7, 2003
The president met with Cardinal Pio Laghi, a former Vatican ambassador to the United States and a Bush family friend, on Ash Wednesday…
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Laghi came bearing the pope´s message: A war would be a “defeat for humanity” and would be neither morally nor legally justified.
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In a letter to Bush, the pope stood by his view that a pre-emptive strike on Iraq is immoral “unless it gets backed” by the United Nations.
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Joe65436:
Are you claiming that Bishop Weigand is dissenting from Pope John Paul II?

Also, name one Bishop each who supports homosexual relationships, and women priests.
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I am sure many could give you a list. Let us start with Clark in Rochester.
 
Just stopping in real quick…I found some interesting things in Canon Law.
Can. 212 §1 Christ’s faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show Christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.

§2 Christ’s faithful are at liberty to make known their needs, especially their spiritual needs, and their wishes to the Pastors of the Church.

§3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.
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Here are some of my *working-rough draft *opinions at this time. I am still reading. But first, I do have some questions that I will be pondering as I read (and pray).

  1. *]What is meant by obedience?
    *]What is meant by declaring as teachers?
    *]What is meant by presribe as rulers of the Church?

    Working Opinions
    I can think of three pastors that I have: Pope John Paul II, who is the universal Pastor of the Roman Catholic Church; my local Bishop, who is the pastor of my diocese; and my local priest, who is the pastor of my parish. If disagreements arise as these pastors teach and rule, then I assume obedience should start with the Pope, then the local Bishop, and finally my local pastor. Of course, Jesus Christ is the pastor of all people of God.

    I don’t plan on posting often. I am still researching, and reading. But I will try to post from time to time, and I hope you will critic my observations.

    I believe, Truth is a person.
 
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digitonomy:
Here, Bishop Botean does not have unique local authority on the issue; his authority on the matter is duplicated in every diocese in the country. Perhaps there should be canon law restricting bishops from making such pronouncements of a national character. But I don’t think there are such canons, so his exercise of authority to “bind and loose” seems to me both licit and valid, however “out there” his opinion may seem to us.
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Bishop Botean is not of the Latin Rite, but the Romanian Catholic Rite. His diocese looks to be The Romanian Catholic Diocese of Canton (Ohio). Apparently, per this web site, the territorial jurisdiction for this Bishop extends to all of the United States. If I recall correctly, the web site also mentions that the diocese numbers only 5,000 parishoners. Since I am of the Latin Rite, (I think that is what I am apart of, the normal ordinary Roman Catholic Diocese), Bishop Botean does not have Power of Jurisdiction over me.

Bishops do possess a power “of jurisdiction; they have the right to prescribe for the faithful the rules which the latter must follow in order to obtain eternal salvation.” (CE, Bishops III, par 2)

I think if I was a Romanian Catholic, which appears to be a Rite in communion with Rome, then I think I must submit to Bishop Botean on peril of my eternal salvation.
 
Yeah, as St Veronica noted above, my choice of words was poor. What I meant was that this issue (Iraq War) is not unique to the Eparchy of Canton (U.S. Romanian Catholics), but is an issue shared by every other diocese. So Bishop Botean’s message has a national character, even though it technically applies only to his eparchy. This can lead to confusion when other bishops fail to make similar statements. It would be a different story if a bishop had a unique local issue (in this case a problem unique to the Romanian Catholics in the US), then a bold and binding pronouncement would be less likely to cause confusion and even ill will from other bishops.

Nonetheless, the bishop has spoken, and I concluded what Joe65436 did: his statement is legitimately binding on his faithful.
 
I would say that this subject is wrong, it should read “Obediance to the Church, Essential for Salvation?”

As the fullness of the Church is found in the diocese of the Bishop.

So the answer is Yes.
 
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