Obeying Allah first then Muhammed!

[FightingFat]

Basically you start pulling stuff out and saying “Muhammad copied this” when clearly he didn’t. Well, it’s clear to me, but let’s discuss. In fact, you don’t think Muhammad copied it because it doesn’t agree. With all of it. So I guess you think he just picked and chose randomly or whatever.

My theory remains: that people heard stuff (baby speaking), interpreted it however (like that “son of God” bit), and wrote it down.

And some of that stuff actually happened.

But you probably wouldn’t know about it because it’s not in the Bible. Couldn’t say what’s true and what’s not.

History is clear about this. Mohammed learned Christianity while travelling with his uncle, he tried to convert the Quaraish from polytheism, they laughed at him about Trinity and Incarnation, so he took those bits out and moulded it to fit Arabs. Why else would so much of the Qur’an be about the Bible???

Amy, you can’t say Mohammed had no access to biblical texts, there were Jews and Christians all around him at that time, your own history confirms this is the case!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Quit taking my words out of context. You wrote that the Arabic Infancy Gospel “agrees with the Qur’an”, so I wrote in reply to that statement that it absolutely does not, because…well, it absolutely does not.

Okay.

What are you talking about? I’m the one who wrote about it in this thread just now.

For you, sure.

This has nothing to do with anything. I never wrote about Muhammad reading anything, or studying with anyone. I’ve been through the differences in the Christian and Muslim versions of the Bahira legend. I’m done with that. I don’t really care how Muhammad received anything. None of it matters because what he produced is false.

I’m not even sure what you’re asking. It doesn’t seem like you know what is actually being discussed here. Here’s what I did say:

1.) Some of the extra-Biblical stories in the Qur’an were taken from apocryphal gospels. (I didn’t say how because I don’t see how that matters.)

2.) The Qur’an jumbled them up/distorted them/manipulated them. (Obvious, when you compare the content that has already been presented to the Qur’anic recensions.)

That’s it. Don’t reply with a bunch of nonsense that doesn’t have anything to do with what I’ve posted, please. It does nothing but muddy the waters with a bunch of unrelated arguments I don’t want to have with you (or anybody).

Maybe I got a little bit out of control last night. Sorry about that.

Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that some things actually happened, which might have been inaccurately recorded in “apocryphal” literature, even Biblical literature, and which God revealed in the Qur’an (correctly) some centuries later?

 

[Sister_Amy]

History is clear about this. Mohammed learned Christianity while travelling with his uncle, he tried to convert the Quaraish from polytheism, they laughed at him about Trinity and Incarnation, so he took those bits out and moulded it to fit Arabs. Why else would so much of the Qur’an be about the Bible???

Amy, you can’t say Mohammed had no access to biblical texts, there were Jews and Christians all around him at that time, your own history confirms this is the case!

That is less history, and more fantasy, I’m sorry to tell you. And the Qur’an is hardly “about the Bible.” Try reading it, and see what it’s about.

 

[dzheremi]

Maybe I got a little bit out of control last night. Sorry about that.

It’s okay. It happens to all of us on occasion.

Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that some things actually happened, which might have been inaccurately recorded in “apocryphal” literature, even Biblical literature, and which God revealed in the Qur’an (correctly) some centuries later?

It is not beyond the realm of possibility, but just the same it is not any more likely than any other scenario, and it is not what Christians believe happened (obviously). We would say that it is significantly less likely than other, more plausible scenarios, to the degree that we can be confident that this is not a good explanation or hypothesis. Think about it: If the Protoevangelium of James on which the Infancy Gospel is partially based did not get it right ~120 years after Christ (c. 150 AD) when it was ostensibly written by a writer within a Christian milieu, why should we give Muhammad (who you yourself argue had no real knowledge of the religion) the benefit of the doubt ~600 years later? Because the Qur’an says so and the Qur’an is the word of God? No way. This kind of argument from authority only works with Muslims such as yourself and people predisposed towards giving Muhammad, the Qur’an, and Islam the benefit of the doubt (i.e., certain orientalists and followers of the “Kumbaya” mentality calling themselves Christians). It is self-serving and very unsound.

 

[Reuben_J]

That is less history, and more fantasy, I’m sorry to tell you. And the Qur’an is hardly “about the Bible.” Try reading it, and see what it’s about.

For much of it the Quran is on its own but when it does refer to something that are also in the Bible it is grossly wrong or in error.

Things revealed are not necessary from God. Like I said our discernment should be when it is consistent with God, it could probably from him but when it is not especially when it actually contradict God’s own revelation, then it is not.

You may wonder why is that Mohammad unlike prophets before him did not experienced God but instead it was always that thing that spoke to him.

 

[Sister_Amy]

For much of it the Quran is on its own but when it does refer to something that are also in the Bible it is grossly wrong or in error.

Things revealed are not necessary from God. Like I said our discernment should be when it is consistent with God, it could probably from him but when it is not especially when it actually contradict God’s own revelation, then it is not.

You may wonder why is that Mohammad unlike prophets before him did not experienced God but instead it was always that thing that spoke to him.

Actually, it seems pretty much the same. Only one prophet has the distinction of being the one “to whom Allah spoke.” But what you call “that thing” is the Angel Gabriel. Did you ever hear of the Angel Gabriel in the Bible?

 

[Reuben_J]

Actually, it seems pretty much the same. Only one prophet has the distinction of being the one “to whom Allah spoke.” But what you call “that thing” is the Angel Gabriel. Did you ever hear of the Angel Gabriel in the Bible?

Sure. I also hear of Adam, Isaac, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mary and Aaron in the Bible too. And they don’t look like they were the same things as mentioned in the Quran.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sure. I also hear of Adam, Isaac, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mary and Aaron in the Bible too. And they don’t look like they were the same things as mentioned in the Quran.

How long has it been since you read the Qur’an?

 

[Reuben_J]

How long has it been since you read the Qur’an?

I can give you examples but they (the characters mentioned) were certainly not the one that we know of in the Bible.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I can give you examples but they (the characters mentioned) were certainly not the one that we know of in the Bible.

And the answer to my question is: _____________ ?

 

[Reuben_J]

And the answer to my question is: _____________ ?

Reuben J:

Sure. I also hear of Adam, Isaac, David, Solomon, Jesus, Mary and Aaron in the Bible too. And they don’t look like they were the same things as mentioned in the Quran.

Reuben J:

I can give you examples but they (the characters mentioned) were certainly not the one that we know of in the Bible.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Reuben_J:
So basically… you never read the Qur’an, but if I want “examples” you know how to use a Qur’anic search engine to plug in names?

If you had read the Qur’an, I imagine you would have answered my question, so I’ll assume you haven’t. And in that case, you’re denying yourself the big picture. Which is sad, but I can’t really force it on you.

 

[dzheremi]

In Reuben’s defense, I have at least tried to read the Qur’an (never successfully completed it), and have come away with much the same impression that he has.

 

[Sister_Amy]

In Reuben’s defense, I have at least tried to read the Qur’an (never successfully completed it), and have come away with much the same impression that he has.

How is that in his defense?

 

[dzheremi]

That reading the Qur’an would likely not change his mind in this case…? I dunno. I just wanted to break the “question-answer-repeat” loop.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That reading the Qur’an would likely not change his mind in this case…? I dunno. I just wanted to break the “question-answer-repeat” loop.

Well, let’s do a fun exercise, the three of us. If ya’ll are interested. Let’s pick a character who appears in both the Qur’an and the Bible and bring the relevant ayaat and verses and compare.

Whacha think?

 

[dzheremi]

Well, let’s do a fun exercise, the three of us. If ya’ll are interested. Let’s pick a character who appears in both the Qur’an and the Bible and bring the relevant ayaat and verses and compare.

Whacha think?

Thank you for the offer. I am not interested, but maybe Reuben will be.

 

[serena86]

even though this is not ur topic iam marrying a lebanese guy and i would love to learn about the maronite domantion i thought he was roman catholic but the just his mom

 

[dzheremi]

Welcome to CAF, Serena86. Here is the website of the Maronite Patriarchate in Bkerke, which should provide you with a lot of information. If you switch the language to Arabic the first thing posted is an interview on CNN with the current Maronite Patriarch, Mar Nasrallah Sfeir. It is in Arabic, but subtitled in English. I highly recommend that you watch it, as it presents the hard truth of the Maronite faith and the future of Christianity in Lebanon and the wider Middle East. It is not a pretty picture, but it’s a picture everyone should see and pray about. Peace.

 

[Reuben_J]

And the answer to my question is: _____________ ?

So basically… you never read the Qur’an, but if I want “examples” you know how to use a Qur’anic search engine to plug in names?

If you had read the Qur’an, I imagine you would have answered my question, so I’ll assume you haven’t. And in that case, you’re denying yourself the big picture. Which is sad, but I can’t really force it on you.

So what, I can say I have read it since I was a tiny tot and have completely, utterly and comprehensively rejected it as true words from God.

I do not respond to this type of question because:

1. 
   *]It does not help towards the discussion proper; it merely redirects the attention to me and veers away for the real subject. Also this is demanding a condition for the discussion and as I told a Muslim poster back then, I am saying it now – I am not playing into this game,
   
   *]You may not aware of this but posters in CAF are not obliged to disclose personal information for whatever reason. I think it is against the Forum’s rule to solicit for personal information. I can volunteer to divert personal information but I am not going to do it under harassment.
   
   *]This is Ad hominem, attacking the person and not the argument, forcing them into defense and away from their argument. You have been here for quite a long time already, you should know this.