Obeying Allah first then Muhammed!

[Reuben_J]

I am not the type who uses search engine in my discussion. That’s if you notice you will see I would use my own words, grammar and paraphrase. You don’t see me very often I would cut and paste. My dear, I am not that type of poster. I don’t care about winning an argument. My purpose is simply to try to explain to people who misunderstood Catholicism generally.

Whether you are right or wrong does not concern me; frankly I do not care about that. I don’t care to engage in useless argument too. I continue with you because on the whole it has given me the opportunity to explain you my belief.

I give you an example then (on the last post):

Angel Gabriel is one who does not oppress. He is the good angel of God. What happen with Mohammad was that this creature suddenly oppressed. So that was not consistent with what an angel is. The one who oppress is the devil. I avoid saying this in this discussion out of respect though I have no doubt you know what I thought about the Quranic ‘Angel Gabriel’. That was the example I was thinking about. I could give you others but I think that should be sufficient to demonstrate my point.

 

[FightingFat]

Angel Gabriel is one who does not oppress. He is the good angel of God. What happen with Mohammad was that this creature suddenly oppressed. So that was not consistent with what an angel is. The one who oppress is the devil. I avoid saying this in this discussion out of respect though I have no doubt you know what I thought about the Quranic ‘Angel Gabriel’. That was the example I was thinking about. I could give you others but I think that should be sufficient to demonstrate my point.

This is a great point actually. I have read the Qur’an, I have my copy in front of me actually and I’m looking at 96:1-5 where Mohammed is choked by the angel. The account hardly makes one think that he was called to bring the full and final revelation from God! It seems far from the actions of a gracious and merciful God as well as contrary to the free choice all God’s creatures have.

Also, Mohammed himself questions the divine origin of the experience, thinking he was deceived by a Jinn, it is Khadija and Waraqah who believe the revelation was the same as that of Moses and that Mohammed too would be a prophet of his nation.

What’s Mohammed’s response to this message? He falls into a three year depression, feels forsaken by God, and entertains thoughts of suicide!

 

[Reuben_J]

This is a great point actually. I have read the Qur’an, I have my copy in front of me actually and I’m looking at 96:1-5 where Mohammed is choked by the angel. The account hardly makes one think that he was called to bring the full and final revelation from God! It seems far from the actions of a gracious and merciful God as well as contrary to the free choice all God’s creatures have.

Also, Mohammed himself questions the divine origin of the experience, thinking he was deceived by a Jinn, it is Khadija and Waraqah who believe the revelation was the same as that of Moses and that Mohammed too would be a prophet of his nation.

What’s Mohammed’s response to this message? He falls into a three year depression, feels forsaken by God, and entertains thoughts of suicide!

Thanks for the post and you’ve articulated it quite clearly.

It is not so difficult to find actually and its all over in CAF too. There must be a few old threads somewhere discussing about this, so it’s quite an old story.

I know all this. I have been here long enough and most probably I had argued with Muslims on this subject before. This one is merely a repeat of one of those.

An important question to note would be: who was this Khadija to say that the revelation was from God? What standing she had to dertmine it was so? Muslims may believe she was someone special but not Christians. That’s why the Quran Angel Gabriel was not the Angel Gabriel at all in the Bible. To say that it was the one and the same creature just because it has the same name does not makes it so. At least not to Christians.

Hopefully point is being made here.

 

[rinnie]

I cannot digest this hadith where Muhammed put himself first…
I think Muhammed better said “He who obeys Allah THEN me”.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 204:
That heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “We are the last but will be the foremost to enter Paradise).” The Prophet added, “He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the chief, obeys me, and he who disobeys the chief, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that.”

صحيح البخاري » كتاب الجهاد والسير » باب يقاتل من وراء الإمام ويتقى به:
وَبِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ يُطِعْ الْأَمِيرَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ يَعْصِ الْأَمِيرَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي وَإِنَّمَا الْإِمَامُ جُنَّةٌ يُقَاتَلُ مِنْ وَرَائِهِ وَيُتَّقَى بِهِ فَإِنْ أَمَرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ وَعَدَلَ فَإِنَّ لَهُ بِذَلِكَ أَجْرًا وَإِنْ قَالَ بِغَيْرِهِ فَإِنَّ عَلَيْهِ مِنْهُ
​

(E) (A)

I don’t think anyone should obey Muhammed at all.

 

[Reuben_J]

There is much to say about God’s revelation.

We just don’t say the revelation comes from God just because someone says it is so.

In Catholicism, it takes something like ten years sometimes years and years after thorough discernment by a council of experts and clergies and after much test and meet certain criteria of vigorous requirement, passed the test of time and witnesses to confirm that it is an authentic revelation before a decision can be made that the revelation is indeed divine.

Some purported revelation though seems to be very authentic never made it to an official recognition.

And who were to test and confirm Mohammad’s revelation? What criteria did it passed through? Why were the local experts of the days not involved in all these? Who was Khadija and Waraqa, the people he got the advice from to say those were God’s revelation?

These may be acceptable for Muslims, but we cannot accept that. By the seventh century, the mainstream Church was already firmly established; at least these people should have a say in all this. But who was Khadija? So it is very funny that Mohammad’s revelation was accepted just based on the words of Mohammad alone.

 

[FightingFat]

Who was Khadija and Waraqa, the people he got the advice from to say those were God’s revelation?

Khadija was his wife at the time, Waraqah was her cousin.

 

[Reuben_J]

Khadija was his wife at the time, Waraqah was her cousin.

Thanks. I rest my case at this point in time.

 

[Reuben_J]

Maybe that’s rather not fair. What was her religion then?

 

[FightingFat]

Maybe that’s rather not fair. What was her religion then?

Well she was Quraysh, a the Quraysh were pagans. I haven’t found anything that says any different, unless Amy can enlighten us!

Waraqah was a convert to Christianity from Judaism, a priest who had “studied the Scriptures that a prophet would rise among this people.” (Ibn Ishaq, 69). This is another pointer to why there are so many borrowings in the Qur’an from Judaism & Christianity.

 

[rinnie]

So basically… you never read the Qur’an, but if I want “examples” you know how to use a Qur’anic search engine to plug in names?

If you had read the Qur’an, I imagine you would have answered my question, so I’ll assume you haven’t. And in that case, you’re denying yourself the big picture. Which is sad, but I can’t really force it on you.

Hi Sister Amy, I asked a question recently to another of your faith and have not got a answer maybe you can help me here.

In this world we have 2 things we can agree on. Reason and history, Reason because everyone has it and history because everyone lives in it, and should know something about it.

Now with that said, Reason dictates that if any man comes from God his comming would be pre-announced. He would dictate where he would be born, where he would live etc. Simply because if not there would be nothing to prevent any imposter from saying I AM from God.

Now why is it that Jesus Christ is the only one in the O.T that fullfilled everthing in the Bible. WHy is there no teaching of this Mohammed?

Why is it there are no early writings???

But it is CHRIST ALONE who stands out above the rest. Read it!! Search the writings, the Jewish People, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all had a predictions of the comming Christ.

Where was the prediction of this mohammed in the O.T. or any writings of History???

Read the O.T does it not Point Straight to Jesus Christ? How can you deny any of this, I mean lets be honest we do have the same O.T writings.

Everything that was said in the O,T was fullfilled by Christ alone. How can you deny this truth when it is in your word of God also?

I mean come on they were all waiting for the Savior of the world to be born of a Virgin, etc. How do you ignore this fact of Life and history in your faith?

 

[FightingFat]

Hi Sister Amy, I asked a question recently to another of your faith and have not got a answer maybe you can help me here.

In this world we have 2 things we can agree on. Reason and history, Reason because everyone has it and history because everyone lives in it, and should know something about it.

Now with that said, Reason dictates that if any man comes from God his comming would be pre-announced. He would dictate where he would be born, where he would live etc. Simply because if not there would be nothing to prevent any imposter from saying I AM from God.

Now why is it that Jesus Christ is the only one in the O.T that fullfilled everthing in the Bible. WHy is there no teaching of this Mohammed?

Why is it there are no early writings???

But it is CHRIST ALONE who stands out above the rest. Read it!! Search the writings, the Jewish People, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all had a predictions of the comming Christ.

Where was the prediction of this mohammed in the O.T. or any writings of History???

Read the O.T does it not Point Straight to Jesus Christ? How can you deny any of this, I mean lets be honest we do have the same O.T writings.

Everything that was said in the O,T was fullfilled by Christ alone. How can you deny this truth when it is in your word of God also?

I mean come on they were all waiting for the Savior of the world to be born of a Virgin, etc. How do you ignore this fact of Life and history in your faith?

Muslims do believe Mohammed’s coming was foretold in the Old Testament rinnie.

 

[rinnie]

Muslims do believe Mohammed’s coming was foretold in the Old Testament rinnie.

I am not asking what they believe, I am asking where in the O.T is it foretold? Why have we all missed the scripture for comming of Mohammed then?

We can show scripture upon scripture about Jesus. Where is one piece of scripture about Mohammend. See what I am saying. I am just asking for proof.

 

[FightingFat]

I am not asking what they believe, I am asking where in the O.T is it foretold? Why have we all missed the scripture for comming of Mohammed then?

We can show scripture upon scripture about Jesus. Where is one piece of scripture about Mohammend. See what I am saying. I am just asking for proof.

I can help, but the claims are a bit silly to be honest!
Dt 18:15-18. Muslims believe this prophecy is fulfilled in Mohammed, as the Qur’an claims when it refers to “the unlettered prophet [Mohammed] whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures), the the Law and the Gospels” (7:157)
Dt 33:2 many Muslim scholars believe hat this verse predicts three seperate visitations of God: one on Sinai to Moses, another to “Seir” through Jesus, and a third in “Paran” (Arabia) through Mohammed who came to Mecca with and army of “ten thousand”
Dt. 34:10 Muslims argue that this proves that the predicted prophet could not be an Israelite but was Mohammed instead.
Habbukuk 3:3 Some Muslims believe that this refers to the prophet Mohammed coming from Paran and use it in connection with Dt 33:2
Psalm 45:3-5 There’s no doubt Mohammed came with a sword!
Isaiah 21:7 Muslims take the rider on the donkeys to be Jesus and the rider on the camels to be Mohammed.
Matthew 3:11 According to Dawud this prediction of John the Baptist refers not to Jesus, but Mohammed because of the preposition “after” which excludes Jesus from being the foretold prophet.
Jn 14:16 The paraclete is supposed to be Mohammed in this verse.

I didn’t say it was a convincing argument!!

 

[Sister_Amy]

So what, I can say I have read it since I was a tiny tot and have completely, utterly and comprehensively rejected it as true words from God.

I do not respond to this type of question because:

1. 
   *]It does not help towards the discussion proper; it merely redirects the attention to me and veers away for the real subject. Also this is demanding a condition for the discussion and as I told a Muslim poster back then, I am saying it now – I am not playing into this game,
   
   *]You may not aware of this but posters in CAF are not obliged to disclose personal information for whatever reason. I think it is against the Forum’s rule to solicit for personal information. I can volunteer to divert personal information but I am not going to do it under harassment.
   
   *]This is Ad hominem, attacking the person and not the argument, forcing them into defense and away from their argument. You have been here for quite a long time already, you should know this.

1. 
   So, telling me when the last time you read the Qur’an is “personal information?”
   
   I wasn’t trying to make an ad hominem attack, but really trying to prevent myself from making an unfair assumption. So now I’m stuck making an assumption.
   
   The question is pretty relevant, because I for one don’t think it’s fair to make an assessment about the Qur’an’s “portrayal” if you will of the people who appear in both the Qur’an and the Bible until you are familiar with both.
   
   And becoming familiar with both is not beyond the realm of possibility–I offered a suggestion towards that end.
   
   But without your having actually consulted the text (both of them), I think you don’t really have a place from which to argue. Which means I can no longer continue the discussion in that direction.
   
   No need to be so defensive, though.

 

[Sister_Amy]

This is a great point actually. I have read the Qur’an, I have my copy in front of me actually and I’m looking at 96:1-5 where Mohammed is choked by the angel. The account hardly makes one think that he was called to bring the full and final revelation from God! It seems far from the actions of a gracious and merciful God as well as contrary to the free choice all God’s creatures have.

Also, Mohammed himself questions the divine origin of the experience, thinking he was deceived by a Jinn, it is Khadija and Waraqah who believe the revelation was the same as that of Moses and that Mohammed too would be a prophet of his nation.

What’s Mohammed’s response to this message? He falls into a three year depression, feels forsaken by God, and entertains thoughts of suicide!

WHOA WHOA WHOA!

Muhammad is choked by an angel? HUH?

Let’s look at the ayaat to which you’re referring:

96:1 Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
96:2 Has created man from an 'alaq
96:3 Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
96:4 Who has taught (the writing) by the pen
96:5 Has taught man that which he knew not.

Gabriel didn’t “choke” him, he squeezed him in a tight embrace. Why? Perhaps so he’d realize he wasn’t just having a vision–he could feel the angel. And he was troubled, but did not “entertain thoughts of suicide.” Whoever made up this fantasy was lying to you.

And that he wasn’t sure right away what to believe? More a proof of his actual prophethood–he wasn’t out trying to make up some religion, was he?

 

[Sister_Amy]

It is not so difficult to find actually and its all over in CAF too. There must be a few old threads somewhere discussing about this, so it’s quite an old story.

Too bad nobody seems to understand it.

I know all this. I have been here long enough and most probably I had argued with Muslims on this subject before. This one is merely a repeat of one of those.

Remember I wasn’t the one who brought it up.

An important question to note would be: who was this Khadija to say that the revelation was from God? What standing she had to dertmine it was so? Muslims may believe she was someone special but not Christians.

What Khadeejah said to him was what is interesting. Do you know what she said? She didn’t say that it was revelation from God. She basically tried to comfort her husband by reminding him that he took care of his family and relatives, fed the poor and gave in charity, essentially that he was a good man, and God wouldn’t have abandoned him.

It was Waraqa who thought he was being called to prophethood. The only one in town who knew about the previous religions, and he thought the encounter was from Gabriel and Muhammad being called to prophethood. Hm.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well she was Quraysh, a the Quraysh were pagans. I haven’t found anything that says any different, unless Amy can enlighten us!

Waraqah was a convert to Christianity from Judaism, a priest who had “studied the Scriptures that a prophet would rise among this people.” (Ibn Ishaq, 69). This is another pointer to why there are so many borrowings in the Qur’an from Judaism & Christianity.

I’ve not come across any discussion in a text about her religion (and I looked, a while back). She was from the Quraysh but it’s extremely unlikely she was practicing any kind of idolatry after marrying Muhammad (he hated it, even from his childhood, and never participated in it himself.) But there’s no evidence at all that she was Christian or anything else.

Whereas Waraqah was Christian, as you mentioned. But he died soon after, which makes it pretty impossible that he was any kind of source for Muhammad. Because he was dead, and Muhammad couldn’t read.

And as I’ve mentioned before, nobody can provide any sort of proof at all that Muhammad ever studied from a source, that anyone was teaching him, or he was reading anything about Judaism or Christianity. In 23 years with all his family and friends and followers witnessing revelation, none of them EVER saw him refer to any kind of source.

So the claim that Christians rely on here is unfounded and at best, speculative.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Sister Amy, I asked a question recently to another of your faith and have not got a answer maybe you can help me here.

In this world we have 2 things we can agree on. Reason and history, Reason because everyone has it and history because everyone lives in it, and should know something about it.

Now with that said, Reason dictates that if any man comes from God his comming would be pre-announced. He would dictate where he would be born, where he would live etc. Simply because if not there would be nothing to prevent any imposter from saying I AM from God.

Now why is it that Jesus Christ is the only one in the O.T that fullfilled everthing in the Bible. WHy is there no teaching of this Mohammed?

Why is it there are no early writings???

But it is CHRIST ALONE who stands out above the rest. Read it!! Search the writings, the Jewish People, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all had a predictions of the comming Christ.

Where was the prediction of this mohammed in the O.T. or any writings of History???

Read the O.T does it not Point Straight to Jesus Christ? How can you deny any of this, I mean lets be honest we do have the same O.T writings.

Everything that was said in the O,T was fullfilled by Christ alone. How can you deny this truth when it is in your word of God also?

I mean come on they were all waiting for the Savior of the world to be born of a Virgin, etc. How do you ignore this fact of Life and history in your faith?

Sorry, I guess you’ll have to bark up some other tree.

 

[jakasaki]

WHOA WHOA WHOA!

Muhammad is choked by an angel? HUH?

Let’s look at the ayaat to which you’re referring:

96:1 Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
96:2 Has created man from an 'alaq
96:3 Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
96:4 Who has taught (the writing) by the pen
96:5 Has taught man that which he knew not.

Gabriel didn’t “choke” him, he squeezed him in a tight embrace. Why? Perhaps so he’d realize he wasn’t just having a vision–he could feel the angel. And he was troubled, but did not “entertain thoughts of suicide.” Whoever made up this fantasy was lying to you.

And that he wasn’t sure right away what to believe? More a proof of his actual prophethood–he wasn’t out trying to make up some religion, was he?

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him.

He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family.

He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira.

The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

The Prophet added, **"The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. **He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ **Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. **He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’

**Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me **and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3)

Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.
**
Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” **

Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you.

You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.

He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?”

Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?”

Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.”

**But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. **

Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira’ sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, ‘Wrap me (in blankets).’ And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

‘O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!’ Arise and warn (the people against Allah’s Punishment),… up to ‘and desert the idols.’ (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/001.sbt.html

(Book #1, Hadith #3) Bukhari

 

[Reuben_J]

So, telling me when the last time you read the Qur’an is “personal information?”

I wasn’t trying to make an ad hominem attack, but really trying to prevent myself from making an unfair assumption. So now I’m stuck making an assumption.

The question is pretty relevant, because I for one don’t think it’s fair to make an assessment about the Qur’an’s “portrayal” if you will of the people who appear in both the Qur’an and the Bible until you are familiar with both.

And becoming familiar with both is not beyond the realm of possibility–I offered a suggestion towards that end.

But without your having actually consulted the text (both of them), I think you don’t really have a place from which to argue. Which means I can no longer continue the discussion in that direction.

No need to be so defensive, though.

I have read the Quran more extensively since I join this Forum in 2005 and that’s quite a number of years, I think. How many years should I read the Quran before I am allowed to argue with you on this subject?

I have read the Quran since my school days on a personal interest basis. I read it much out of curiosity. I opted for Quran study in tertiary education but drop out the subject. I still own a copy and do search for commentary, also for personal study.

However, I resent the question and felt offended by it. I feel it is demeaning to one you discuss with. It should not be a basis for people to discuss. This is an internet Forum and discussion is virtual – we put out thought and discuss on it.

I put up a subject; you only have to rebut or agree to with what is laid on the table. If you feel I don’t have the intellectual capacity to argue or to understand you, please stop and don’t continue. You don’t want to address what I brought up, well that’s fine, and you don’t have too.

**Just to refresh you again, it was you who brought up the subject, by asking me whether I have heard about Angel Gabriel in the Bible? How else you want me to answer that question, knowing my belief that your Quranic Angel Gabriel entirely differs from the same creature with the same name in the Bible? And for that matter, there are others too with the same names in both books but understood differently. I know this. I don’t have to prove to you that I am an expert at the Quran to know this.

I mentioned Mohammad spoke to ‘that thing’ because I don’t believe it was really Angel Gabriel. You should get the hint and as I said I don’t want to be blunt because out of respect.**

What you’re actually trying to do is to make me agree with you on how to understand the Quran. That’s not fair, isn’t it? So I told you, even the Muslims do not have the same understanding of the Quran as demonstrated by yourself (no stoning, equal witnesses) and the different understanding on what constitutes Sharia government. I think the subject of the discussion is clear despite the unconventional way of discussing it with you seem to try to discredit my position.