Objections to the Reality of Free Will

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Not if acts are freely chosen by a subject, who can interrupt the chain of cause and effect.
[paraphrasing another CA user]: I would say the chain of causality stops at the senses, the last element of causality. God is the best first and primary cause of the intellect. Life experiences are secondary causes stored in the memory. The intellect is a free agent because it acts according to its nature.
 
Yes the intellect/ mind is a free agent, but as long as we live in this side of eternity, our intellect/ mind is a CORRUPTED agent and without the aids of God’s supernatural graces our corrupted intellect/ mind is only useful for lying and to commit acts of sins.

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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, ( De fide ).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, ( De fide ).

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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.

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The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza. Page 84.
St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.”

St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

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As we see above, there are two agents God and still our corrupted intellect/ mind.

But only One Agent runs the show, God Almighty the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

His wisdom He so orders/ decreed from all eternity all events within the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God bless
 
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Wozza:
Your inclination is to have another beer. If you have one, it’s because you wanted one. If you don’t, it’s because there’s a reason which you have decided is more important.
So do you think this is freedom to either follow your inclinations or not? My thoughts are I have a reason for a decision, but I am not predetermined to follow one path. My subconscious brought this comment to my conscious attention, and I was able to weigh the reasons to choose the proper answer and reply. I was not forced to follow my first thought automatically, I employed my rationality.
I’m not suggesting that your subconscious gives you options from which ‘you’ can chooose. I’m saying that it makes the decision. It has already worked through the options and it gives you the answer.

It whispers ‘you could have another beer but you don’t want to drink and drive’. And you think ‘hey, I could have another beer but I don’t want to drink and drive’.

‘You’ have made the decision. I’m just not sure which part of ‘you’ made it. I think it may be unconsciously decided and passed up to the conscious ‘you’.
 
‘You’ have made the decision. I’m just not sure which part of ‘you’ made it. I think it may be unconsciously decided and passed up to the conscious ‘you’.
MAYBE GOD MADE THE DECISION

Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT FORCING IT.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

“The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.”
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless
 
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Wozza:
‘You’ have made the decision. I’m just not sure which part of ‘you’ made it. I think it may be unconsciously decided and passed up to the conscious ‘you’.
MAYBE GOD MADE THE DECISION
I’m not sure He’s that concerned about my preference in regards to ice cream flavours. But if He is making the call as opposed to me then I’m not much more than an automaton.

Now if you’ll excuse me, God wants me to have another cup of coffee.
 
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If there is no free will, then of course there should be no criminal statutes, since no one is culpable for any wrongdoing, and there is no sin, either. No crime, no punishment.
Not a punitive justice system but there can still be a justice system.

It would indeed change some things if everybody stopped believing in free will. It seems unlikely though. Even the average staunch materialist continues to behave in a way as though there was free will even if they don’t technically believe in it. It is very pervasive.
 
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Wozza:
‘You’ have made the decision. I’m just not sure which part of ‘you’ made it. I think it may be unconsciously decided and passed up to the conscious ‘you’.
MAYBE GOD MADE THE DECISION
I’m not sure He’s that concerned about my preference in regards to ice cream flavours. But if He is making the call as opposed to me then I’m not much more than an automaton.
Is.55:8; For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions. …

Probably most of the time we do what we want to do without realizing we are cooperating with God’s graces.

We will know in the other side of eternity that who made the decision.

God bless
 
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Now if you’ll excuse me, God wants me to have another cup of coffee.
God cares for us at every moment and provides us all our needs.

CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.

God bless
 
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I’m not suggesting that your subconscious gives you options from which ‘you’ can chooose. I’m saying that it makes the decision. It has already worked through the options and it gives you the answer.
I would agree with this partly for biological inclinations, but you don’t unconsciously choose to sin. Typically a desire for sin (ex: lust) might bubble up and you can rationally weigh which desire to follow (sin or love for God). It makes more sense to get an unconscious desire for a beer but then go against that impulse because you need to drive home. You might also be able to develop your unconscious or conscience over time to prefer the good (or the bad).
 
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Wozza:
I’m not suggesting that your subconscious gives you options from which ‘you’ can chooose. I’m saying that it makes the decision. It has already worked through the options and it gives you the answer.
I would agree with this partly for biological inclinations, but you don’t unconsciously choose to sin. Typically a desire for sin (ex: lust) might bubble up and you can rationally weigh which desire to follow (sin or love for God). It makes more sense to get an unconscious desire for a beer but then go against that impulse because you need to drive home. You might also be able to develop your unconscious or conscience over time to prefer the good (or the bad).
I’m not saying that the unconscious passes matters along for the conscious you to make a decision. I’m saying that the unconscious makes tbe decision in the first place. It only feels like it’s a conscious decision.

But you may be on to something in developing your unconscious self. Let’s say it prompted you to have that beer and drive home. And you crashed. You might be horrified it happened even if no-one was hurt. So the next time you have the option of a beer, your subconscious (the elephant in one of my previous posts) might want to avoid the same scenario. If you weren’t worried about the accident then It may happen again.

And let’s say that you were prosecuted and punished. One of the aims of punishment is deterrence. And that might serve the same purpose.
 
I’m saying that the unconscious makes tbe decision in the first place. It only feels like it’s a conscious decision.
What’s the proof of that? Do you think the intellect and rationally play a part in decisions? To say you remember the crash from your subconscious or memory, which informs your conscious decision not to drink but doesn’t ultimately make the decision. You “might want to avoid the same scenario.”
 
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Wozza:
I’m saying that the unconscious makes tbe decision in the first place. It only feels like it’s a conscious decision.
What’s the proof of that?
There is none. I’m just putting forward proposals. Thinking aloud if you will. If you want to reject it, then I’m good with that. But I’d like to know why. I might be missing something.
 
Oh I see. I don’t agree because never in my experience have I made an unconscious decision, save maybe food choice or impulsive decisions. My unconscious might inform most of my decisions, but my conscious self weighs the options over time. The unconscious might be tied to memory and conscience.
 
Oh I see. I don’t agree because never in my experience have I made an unconscious decision, save maybe food choice or impulsive decisions. My unconscious might inform most of my decisions, but my conscious self weighs the options over time. The unconscious might be tied to memory and conscience.
But your unconscious runs most of what you do. You know what it’s like when you’re driving to work and thinking about something that’s important to you. You get to work and realise that you made no conscious effort to get there. Consciously dealing with your problem and unconsciously adjusting your speed, checking your mirror, changing gear, indicating…

Similarly walking to the fridge whilst thinking about work perhaps. And you get there and open the door…and you consciously switch from ‘must get that matter sorted out’ to ‘what am I doing here?’ Your subconscious sent you there but your conscious self doesn’t know why.

There’s two of you. And I suggest that the one you are not aware of makes most of the decisions. If ‘you’ aren’t aware of them being made, then where is the free will?
 
It would indeed change some things if everybody stopped believing in free will. It seems unlikely though. Even the average staunch materialist continues to behave in a way as though there was free will even if they don’t technically believe in it. It is very pervasive.
Yes, I think that’s true. People generally want to take credit for their own accomplishments. Materialist or not, a neuroscientist takes credit for his own research papers and books. People give themselves credit for their high scores on the GRE or the MCAT, and they blame themselves for low scores. People writing on this forum probably think that they as an individual thinking subject are composing the words and postings, and not giving credit to the pre-existing condition of their neurons and the various (name removed by moderator)uts. I think I wrote this post, but if I’m not a real self-aware subject capable of independent thought, maybe it was all predetermined at the big bang.
 
I’m not sure if this qualifies as any kind of proof however…neuroscientists conducted experiments in which probes monitored the brain in decision making areas. They put decision making scenarios on a screen where the subject had to make a choice and push a button to indicate that choice. It was a simple decision algorithm like a color choice. The expected result was that the brain would light up and then the button was pushed but that’s not what happened…the button was pushed a few milliseconds before the decision was made.

I remember Sam Harris talking about and showing the experiment. I assume further work is ongoing but the results kind of blew them away. I’m also not sure that this in any way contradicts free will. It was interesting, to say the least.
 
Any chance you could look up that study for me? I’d be interested to read it because that seems so counter-intuitive to me.
 
I’ll try but it’s been a few years…I’ll start with Sam Harris…it was a really interesting experiment!
 
The expected result was that the brain would light up and then the button was pushed but that’s not what happened…the button was pushed a few milliseconds before the decision was made.
Are they sure they measured the correct area? (call me very skeptical of a few probes being able to measure complex brain activities) Perhaps they caught the confirmation of the action.
 
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