Objections to the Reality of Free Will

[Wozza]

I’ll try but it’s been a few years…I’ll start with Sam Harris…it was a really interesting experiment!

Maybe read Free Will by Harris. It’s quite short - only 100 pages or so. But it pointed me in a certain direction. Not that I’m saying that I agree with everything be says on the matter. But he’s thought provoking.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

Any chance you could look up that study for me? I’d be interested to read it because that seems so counter-intuitive to me.

Try this: Benjamin Libet and the Denial of Free Will | Psychology Today

Thanks for the link. It gives some pretty reasonable explanations for what could have been at play in those experiments.

@buffalo, I agree. I always find it a little troubling when people claim the measuring of electrical signals is enough to say what’s actually going on in the brain.

 

[Pattylt]

I haven’t found the original experiment but here is Jerry Coyne on his blog talking about it and some further research being done and their findings. The difference between the subconscious and conscious decisions can be up to 4 seconds! Wow.

Yet another experiment showing that conscious “decisions” are made unconsciously, and in advance

In the last few years, neuroscience experiments have shown that some "conscious decisions" are actually made in the brain before the actor is conscious of them: brain-scanning techniques can predict

whyevolutionistrue.com

 

[Wozza]

Pattylt:

The expected result was that the brain would light up and then the button was pushed but that’s not what happened…the button was pushed a few milliseconds before the decision was made.

Are they sure they measured the correct area? (call me very skeptical of a few probes being able to measure complex brain activities) Perhaps they caught the confirmation of the action.

You’re right. You need to be skeptical. This isn’t a cut and dried issue. I have my doubts about it too. But it led me to think that the subconscious plays a much larger part in our decision making than we might allow for.

It’s not so much a ‘ghost in the machine’ making the calls. It’s really me. But there are two of ‘me’. And I am rarely aware of what the other guy is doing.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The difference between the subconscious and conscious decisions can be up to 4 seconds

That’s assuming they’re registering the actual decision-making process, and not some other aspect or function of the mind ancillary to those things.

Still, it’s interesting to read about. Thank you!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But there are two of ‘me’. And I am rarely aware of what the other guy is doing.

I’m curious, why do you thing it’s “another guy” and not just, “this is me, my brain, making decisions I don’t really need to think about much.”

It’s sort of like basic math. If you practice basic math enough, you reach a point where you don’t even have to think about it, you just know the answer. Your brain is still running the calculation, there’s just no need for you to focus on it. Languages are similar, you reach a point where it’s just natural to you. I look at the subconscious as being similar.

 

[Pattylt]

I found a ~3 minute video showing how the experiment is performed.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

But there are two of ‘me’. And I am rarely aware of what the other guy is doing.

I’m curious, why do you thing it’s “another guy” and not just, “this is me, my brain, making decisions I don’t really need to think about much.”

OK…the other ‘me’. They’re both me. One actively interacting with the environment on a conscious level and the other ‘me’ working in the background. The ‘me’ you are talking to now isn’t aware of the other one. By definition.

If the other ‘me’ makes a decision, there is no free will involved.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If the other ‘me’ makes a decision, there is no free will involved.

Why?

You are actively aware of active decisions you make.

You aren’t actively aware of your subconscious, even though it is doing things in the background, but that doesn’t mean that you aren’t making the decision.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

If the other ‘me’ makes a decision, there is no free will involved.

Why?

You are actively aware of active decisions you make.

You aren’t actively aware of your subconscious, even though it is doing things in the background, but that doesn’t mean that you aren’t making the decision.

If you are unaware of the decision making process, then there cannot exist anything that could be described as free will. Simply saying that some part of you made the call doesn’t change that.

 

[Pattylt]

even though it is doing things in the background, but that doesn’t mean that you aren’t making the decision.

It seems to me that it isn’t the conscious you making the decision, though. You just consciously realize that some decision was made before you had a chance to evaluate it.

I’m even more confused now…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If you are unaware of the decision making process, then there cannot exist anything that could be described as free will. Simply saying that some part of you made the call doesn’t change that.

I am unaware of my body continuously making the decision to breath, but I am still capable of enacting my will to stop breathing. Just because the subconscious is making the decision to do something doesn’t mean you lack the free will to counteract that decision. (I know this is an imperfect analogy, because eventually you’ll black out and resume breathing, it was just meant to be illustrative, not exactly analogous)

There also still a question of to what extent the subconscious is actually making decisions. Just because some processes run in the background feeding you information doesn’t mean that you’re not still actively making the final determination most of the time.

 

[JimG]

I’m confused too. When I decided after much thought to move from one city to another to take a job, I never really decided?

 

[o_mlly]

The claim that all past choices, if made present, would be the same is true. We cannot change the past. But to conclude that that truth proves that free will does not exist is false.

One’s choices are often determined by one’s habits. Even if not yet habitual, our choice of behaviors is always driven by our attitudes and our attitudes are driven by our affections. If our affections can change then so can our choices. Do our affections change? Yes. Do we freely choose the objects of our affections? Yes.

The child’s affection for his “blankie” changes over time. The adolescent’s egocentrism changes over time. The babe cannot choose to sleep without his “blankie” and the teen cannot choose to remain calm rather than upset after a minor embarrassment. Only until one’s affections change do behaviors change. We freely choose our affections.

 

[Wozza]

I’m confused too. When I decided after much thought to move from one city to another to take a job, I never really decided?

There are two of us. Conscious and subconscious. You are unaware of the decisions made by the latter. By definition.

You put a lot of thought into your choice. But I’m not sure who actually made it. It certainly felt like a conscious decision. But then all decisions do.

 

[Wozza]

There also still a question of to what extent the subconscious is actually making decisions. Just because some processes run in the background feeding you information doesn’t mean that you’re not still actively making the final determination most of the time.

True. You could be making them. Then again…you might not.

 

[fhansen]

The question really comes down to, should we never hold anyone accountable for crimes or sin? Should we free all the prisoners? Should we never have moral outrage or righteous indignation over atrocities committed in this world? Is our sense of justice imaginary? Are humans all just dumb, irresponsible brutes? Does anything matter?

 

[Wozza]

The question really comes down to, should we never hold anyone accountable for crimes or sin? Should we free all the prisoners? Should we never have moral outrage or righteous indignation over atrocities committed in this world? Is our sense of justice imaginary? Are humans all just dumb, irresponsible brutes? Does anything matter?

If nothing else, what we should do is accept that there are different situations in regard to any crime. Every person is, to some extent, a product of their environment. How much credence we should give to that undeniable fact is a matter that needs to be discussed.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, I think that should go without saying-and we should strive to get better at it. And yet it changes nothing regarding my post.

 

[Wozza]

Yes, I think that should go without saying-and we should strive to get better at it. And yet it changes nothing regarding my post.

Agreed. We should be accountable. I should be accountable. I’m just not sure who the ‘I’ I am talking about actually is.