Objective Morals, Free Will, Afterlife

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By the very nature of this conversation is also an indicator that morality is objective. If morality was not objective, we would not be having this conversation and discussion because ultimately it would have to reach the self defeating argument that morality is subjective.

We get close using human understanding and reason but ultimately only one answer can suffice as a bridge to reach moral objectivity.
 
I was thinking about this last night. There is really no way to prove that gravity exists. There is no way to really prove that anything exists.

We have gone back and forth over the question of objective morality and have not come to a reasonable conclusion to demonstarte that there is an actual objective morality independent of human subjectiveism. Yet the debate itself is very telling.

Suppose objective morality was something that is man made and thus subjective in nature. Why would those who believe this simply not state that morality is subjective and therefore what is good for those who disagree with this claim are just as valid as those who agree and therefore noone can really be unhappy with it at all.

Yet the debate rages on. If people believe morality is subjective or evolving, which is still subjective in nature, then why continue the debate? Why have this discussion at all? What’s true for you is true for you and a matter of opinion. How does a belief that morality is objective hurt them at all?

I wonder who this debate is really trying to convince.😉

Subjective morality and evolutionary morality are self defeating by there very nature. Objective morality can not be proven beyond a doubt unless by one argument. One option can be proven wrong by its very nature and the other can not be validiated completely by human reason of itself. Yet if morality was evolving or subjective, this debate should not exist at all and those that question the objectivity of morality should not question it at all yet they do.
 
The charge and most likely punishment would hing upon the state of mind of the accussed and the circumstances of the situation. If it was a revenge killing he would most likely not be charged to the extent of crime commited by a man who premediated his crime for no reason at all. Legal definitions are a very ineresting issues and subject to a very broad scope.
There is no need to go into the minutia of this issue, but a man who kills after a “cooling of the blood” is certainly eligible to be convicted of murder under every American jurisdiction of which I am aware.
By the simple fact that we naturally try to objectify morality. How do we know that man naturally desires to move? Since humans began living together in groups with a common language they ahve sought to objectify right and wrong. It is as natural as breathing.
There are many people who do not naturally try to objectify morality. I am but one example. It is not as natural breathing since I would die without breathing. I did not have to be taught how to breath.
The concept is self defeating if I understand correctly what you are talking about.
Can you expand on this? How do you know that evolutionary psychology is self defeating.
We can only trace things back as far as human history permits.
But since you claim to know that morality is objective (and therefore did not evolve) you should know the answer to this question.
speculative
Again, since you know that morality is objective you should be able to provide an answer.
We have gotten close by human means but ultimately there is only one answer.
How do you know this? Where is your evidence?
 
By the very nature of this conversation is also an indicator that morality is objective. If morality was not objective, we would not be having this conversation and discussion because ultimately it would have to reach the self defeating argument that morality is subjective.
We could have the same argument about beauty. I have argued with people that take the position that there is an objective standard of beauty.

We do not need an objective standard of morality to have this discussion. We need an objective standard of truth (to an extent), but we do not need an objective standard of morality.
 
Richard Powers;3144075]We could have the same argument about beauty. I have argued with people that take the position that there is an objective standard of beauty.
We do not need an objective standard of morality to have this discussion. We need an objective standard of truth (to an extent), but we do not need an objective standard of morality.
To play the devil’s advocate for a moment:

You mention objective truth. By the very arguments you have presented objective truth can not exist by your understanding and logic. Even scientific truth is subjective and unprovable. Look at gravity again. Someone, somewhere decided on how we should go about trying to measure gravity. They decided upon the scientific method which is merely a subjective understanding and decision to study the world around us in a manner that many people have agreed on. How do we know the scientific method is accurate and thus all data gathered from it becomes a representation of the “truth” or fact? We can’t. Nothing can be proven. Gravity is nothing more than a a study with subjective criteria decided upon by a whole bunch of people to try and explain the world around them. How do we know the scientific method is right? We don’t. How do we know that gravity exists? We don’t. All data and every fact can be disputed by being merley the fruit of subjectivity. Lighting being the result of the gods fighting is just as legitemate as it being the result of friction of air molecules.

The idea of subjective or evolutionary morality can not be proven. It makes no sense for those who believe in evolutionary morality or subjective morality to disagree with those who believe in objective morality. Subjective morality essentialy states that all morality is a matter of opinion (essentially). If that is the belief, then why should those who hold the belief that all morality is subjective ever disagree with those who feel that morality is objective. Even if morality is not objective this could still be considered a subjective view and thus just as completely valid as those who believe morality is subjective to begin with. To criticize or even object to beliving morality objective is nothing more than hypocricy.

There are many elements of your own stance that in itself undermine your arguments. As soon as you admit there is something as objective truth then objective morality follows hand in hand for they can not be seperated.

You believe in a scientific objectivity and scientific truth. You apparenly believe in some sort of objective truth which I think you may see as an extension of scientific truth. The bottom line is simple. You raise objections to an objective morality, however, the very objections you raise can be applied to scientific and objective truth as well. I have overlooked these simply as a means of getting to the issue that you have asked about to begin with. However, you accept one type of truth but reject others yet the truth you accept suffers from the same aparent flaw that morality suffers from.

When someone smashes your mailbox with a baseball bat, remeber, it would be very hypocritical if you would be angry over this because by their view of morality what they did was just as right as your reaction of anger. The tree of truth has many branches. If the branches are rotten, so too is the core. If the core is rotten, so too are the branches.
 
There are many elements of your own stance that in itself undermine your arguments. As soon as you admit there is something as objective truth then objective morality follows hand in hand for they can not be seperated.
I will respond to your entire post this evening, but I wanted to respond to this one part with the little time I have this afternoon.

Why is objective morality required by the existence of any sort of objective truth? I believe that you have already agreed that objective truth does not require objective beauty or objective standards of taste. If the existence of objective truth does not require these things to be objective then why is morality required to objective?
 
Why is objective morality required by the existence of any sort of objective truth?
Let us assume for the moment that there is such a thing as objective morality. Objective morality falls under the heading of truth or objective truth. Morality could be considered a sub section or appendage of the truth as a whole for it is truth as well.

Now, let us suppose that we take some of the critiques you have proposed for morality not being objective. So in essence let us view for a moment a critique of morality as being something subjective and non objectifiable.

If morality is subjective that would infer that the objective truth about morality is that its nature is subjective. That morality is arbitrary. Why can morality not be objective? Because as you said we can not come up with a way to scientifically measure what we should value. We can measure why murder is wrong from a scientific example but a moral example proves more complex. (we still need to get into the discuss of the only possible answer that fits this dilema after human reason only takes us so far) The objective truth about morality is that it is subjective.

Truth is defined as conformity with fact or reality. If the subjective moral truth about murder is that it is okay depending entirely upon the individual then that subjective ambivalence must grant those in opposition to murder their due. “I believe the idea of allowing people to choose whether killing someone for any reason should be left up to the individual(society) to decide”. However, if society decides that murder is indeed wrong and they say so, then I would be wrong as a result of giving them that choice to make and the criteria to make it with. “I’m either wrong or I’m right and it’s up to you to decide”. “Fine… you are wrong and you have not only given me the ability to call you wrong but the very criteria to help show hat you are wrong. You yourself propose the criteria so therefore by your own standards you are wrong.” If truth is conformity with fact then it is a fact that murder is wrong and thus a truth.
I believe that you have already agreed that objective truth does not require objective beauty or objective standards of taste.
I personally believe beauty is another category such as taste and this would stand to reason and explain many things. (i think we could propose an objective means that would be very broad to encompass an objective sense of beauty. i.e. “beauty is something that is attractive to the individual (society)” but that would be a different discussion.)
If the existence of objective truth does not require these things to be objective then why is morality required to objective?
Morality and beauty are apples and oranges. Does my liking of the Boston Red Sox have anything to do with the death penalty or murder?
(off topic side note as I stated in parentheses above, I think beauty could perhaps be agreed upon as objective in the broadest sense of the understanding. I haven’t given it too much thought and believe it would be a seperate conversation. There is a far cry between liking pizza and seeking justice for a rape)

Morality is objective by its very nature. Why is a chair a chair? We can define what makes a chair and all the parts just as we can define what is immoral and the parts of that immorality.
 
I think you are committing an error here. Just because we can assert that we understand the parts which make up a chair does not mean that we can also necessarily also understand that things which make up morality.

However, if we accept Plato’s argument that there is such a thing as “chairness” then we can assume that in some way or another all chairs more or less conform to this ultimate standard. If this is true and we can also accept that my idea of “chairness” may not be the same as your idea of “chairness” then we must necessarily assert that my definition and your definition of “chairness” are more or less flawed however that does not do away with the ultimate standard of “chairness”

2bcont.
 
part 2.

Now for St. Augustine.

Walking along the canal one day the venerable saint observed a young man rowing a boat and noticed that as the oar struck the water it appeared that the oar below the water line was bending. However, since water does not bend oars, this could not be true. From this Augustine deduced that his eyesight was lying to him. He decided that based upon this there existed the reality that the senses were on some level at least unreliable.

However, this does not mean that the truth does not exist. After all, just because my eyes tell me that the oar bends, I can know objectively that it does not. Therefore just because I may not know what objective truth is does not argue against “truthness”.

That being so, in the same way that there may be “chairness” so there may also be “truthness” and if there is “truthness” then there would also be a standard bearer of truth. If there is a standard bearer of truth, then it would follow that those who live beneath this standard would have some sort of obligation to discover, as best as our limited abilities will allow, what this standard is.

For this reason it is perfectly acceptable that my version of truth and morality may differ from yours but that does not mean that there might be a standard to which we all will answer and for that reason we would be obligated to live as though such a standard existed.

If we then accept that existence is higher than non-existence then we would be necessarily obligated.

Of course this is all based upon the presupposition that such a standard does exist and that is where faith comes in.
 
To play the devil’s advocate for a moment:

You mention objective truth. By the very arguments you have presented objective truth can not exist by your understanding and logic. Even scientific truth is subjective and unprovable. Look at gravity again. Someone, somewhere decided on how we should go about trying to measure gravity. They decided upon the scientific method which is merely a subjective understanding and decision to study the world around us in a manner that many people have agreed on. How do we know the scientific method is accurate and thus all data gathered from it becomes a representation of the “truth” or fact? We can’t. Nothing can be proven. Gravity is nothing more than a a study with subjective criteria decided upon by a whole bunch of people to try and explain the world around them. How do we know the scientific method is right? We don’t. How do we know that gravity exists? We don’t. All data and every fact can be disputed by being merley the fruit of subjectivity. Lighting being the result of the gods fighting is just as legitemate as it being the result of friction of air molecules.
It is true that strictly speaking nothing is proven in science. No matter how many times we run an experiment testing gravity we never know for certain that gravity exists. But in the world of probabilities we are really certain that gravity exists. We could go through the writings of Popper or Kuhn or the less philosophical Feynman, but I do not think this is necessary. I do not think you really doubt that gravity objectively exists. I do not think that you would be willing to walk off the side of the Sears Towers saying that gravity might not exist and that it is just a part of subjective system.
There are many elements of your own stance that in itself undermine your arguments. As soon as you admit there is something as objective truth then objective morality follows hand in hand for they can not be seperated.
I do not see how anything we learn from mathematics, logic, or science leads to there being objective morality. It seems to me at anything we learn from these fields cannot tell us what is moral or good without committing the naturalistic fallacy or coming into the is/ought problem.
You believe in a scientific objectivity and scientific truth. You apparenly believe in some sort of objective truth which I think you may see as an extension of scientific truth.
Objective truth is not an extension of scientific truth. Science is a method to get a truth.

Continued
 
The idea of subjective or evolutionary morality can not be proven. It makes no sense for those who believe in evolutionary morality or subjective morality to disagree with those who believe in objective morality. Subjective morality essentialy states that all morality is a matter of opinion (essentially). If that is the belief, then why should those who hold the belief that all morality is subjective ever disagree with those who feel that morality is objective. Even if morality is not objective this could still be considered a subjective view and thus just as completely valid as those who believe morality is subjective to begin with. To criticize or even object to beliving morality objective is nothing more than hypocricy.
Morality and beauty are apples and oranges. Does my liking of the Boston Red Sox have anything to do with the death penalty or murder?
(off topic side note as I stated in parentheses above, I think beauty could perhaps be agreed upon as objective in the broadest sense of the understanding. I haven’t given it too much thought and believe it would be a seperate conversation. There is a far cry between liking pizza and seeking justice for a rape)
Morality is objective by its very nature. Why is a chair a chair? We can define what makes a chair and all the parts just as we can define what is immoral and the parts of that immorality.
I put these quotes together because I think they illustrate an important point. There are some things that are objective and some things that are subjective. We both agree on this. But we disagree on whether morality objectively exists. I think we both agree that gravity actually exists (despite your radical skepticism in the post above). We both agree that taste is subjective. I think we both agree that beauty is subjective. It is not hypocritical to say that gravity objectively exists but that objective taste does not. Now, you have repeatedly state that morality is not like beauty or taste. That is to say that is not subjective. But you are just begging the question. That is the very question at issue. You are making use in the argument of the very thing which you seeking to establish in the conclusion. It makes no sense to that morality is objective because it is different from beauty. Beauty is different from taste. And taste is love from love. This says nothing about whether any of these things are objective.

I think it would help if you presented a straight forward argument for why morality is objective. If you could please complete this argument:

Morality is objective (and taste is subjective) because …
 
Richard Powers;3148409]I put these quotes together because I think they illustrate an important point. There are some things that are objective and some things that are subjective. We both agree on this. But we disagree on whether morality objectively exists. I think we both agree that gravity actually exists (despite your radical skepticism in the post above). We both agree that taste is subjective. I think we both agree that beauty is subjective. It is not hypocritical to say that gravity objectively exists but that objective taste does not.
The critique was not in reference to scientific objectivity and taste but rather the methods and logic employed in establishing that scientific objectivity does exist but that moral objectivity does not.
Now, you have repeatedly state that morality is not like beauty or taste. That is to say that is not subjective. But you are just begging the question.That is the very question at issue. You are making use in the argument of the very thing which you seeking to establish in the conclusion.
The argument for morality being subjective is still self defeating. Once you give people the right to decide what is wrong or right as soon as they decide you are wrong, you become wrong by your own very standards. If you grant the fact that people have the right to choose whether murder is wrong or right, when they decide its wrong and hence anyone who believes it could be right or wrong is wrong themselves you can not simply walk away and with the response “well it’s right for them but not for me.” If you give your child a choice between cookies and ice cream, you can’t get upset when he chooses one over the other. You automaticaly forfeit any say thereafter. As soon as you agree that people should and can choose the moral values they deem appropriate any criticism of them choosing an objective sense of morality must cease. You have forfeited your right to dispute their beliefs. You can not state that people have a right to choose and then criticise the manner in which they make their choice. That is the hypocricy.
It makes no sense to that morality is objective because it is different from beauty.
I did not really want to bring beauty into the discussion because it is a seperate discussion that we would have to talk about and would get us off topic.
Beauty is different from taste. And taste is love from love. This says nothing about whether any of these things are objective.
another topic
I think it would help if you presented a straight forward argument for why morality is objective. If you could please complete this argument:
 
Richard Powers;3148409]I put these quotes together because I think they illustrate an important point. There are some things that are objective and some things that are subjective. We both agree on this. But we disagree on whether morality objectively exists. I think we both agree that gravity actually exists (despite your radical skepticism in the post above). We both agree that taste is subjective. I think we both agree that beauty is subjective. It is not hypocritical to say that gravity objectively exists but that objective taste does not.
The critique was not in reference to scientific objectivity and taste but rather the methods and logic employed in establishing that scientific objectivity does exist but that moral objectivity does not.
Now, you have repeatedly state that morality is not like beauty or taste. That is to say that is not subjective. But you are just begging the question.That is the very question at issue. You are making use in the argument of the very thing which you seeking to establish in the conclusion.
The argument for morality being subjective is still self defeating. Once you give people the right to decide what is wrong or right as soon as they decide you are wrong, you become wrong by your own very standards. If you grant the fact that people have the right to choose whether murder is wrong or right, when they decide its wrong and hence anyone who believes it could be right or wrong is wrong themselves you can not simply walk away and with the response “well it’s right for them but not for me.” If you give your child a choice between cookies and ice cream, you can’t get upset when he chooses one over the other. You automaticaly forfeit any say thereafter. As soon as you agree that people should and can choose the moral values they deem appropriate any criticism of them choosing an objective sense of morality must cease. You have forfeited your right to dispute their beliefs. You can not state that people have a right to choose and then criticise the manner in which they make their choice. That is the hypocricy.
It makes no sense to that morality is objective because it is different from beauty.
I did not really want to bring beauty into the discussion because it is a seperate discussion that we would have to talk about and would get us off topic.
Beauty is different from taste. And taste is love from love. This says nothing about whether any of these things are objective.
another topic
 
Morality is objective (and taste is subjective) because…
(Taste and beauty are for a different time.) (the explaination for objective morality must be divine in nature which I have been trying to avoid for obvious reasons) Let me explain it in the best circumstances I can currently think of. Morality must be objective because there is no way on this green earth that the rape of a 6 year old child could ever be considered moral. (and the circumstances of the incident I am hypothesizing need not be expressed in detail but I think you can probably guess the particulars.) As sooon as you make the statement that morality is subjective and thus dependent upon the views and desires of those who decide to make things moral or immoral you are expressing your indifference to their decision adn given assent to their right to choose whatever they may. You are giving them a blank check to create the most heinous violations of humanity the world has ever known. “Hitler may be excused, Pol Pot should be worshipped, the philosophy of Stalin should be taught in every classroom. Child rapists and pedophiles should be apologized to.” This is what you are advocating. A world where nothing is wrong and nothing is right unless someone, somewhere says so. A place where tomorrow a million Adolf Hitlers could rise up and you would let them do as they please by your moral and logical understanding for they are only wrong or right because somewhere somone feels so.

You don’t believe in God, or more apporpriately you seek proof that there is a God. Yet you seek to become God yourself. A world where right and wrong are detrmined by human beings playing God. There are many people in this world who have difficulty changing lightbulbs and you wish to give them the power to decide what the moral nature of the university should consist of? Soon as you agree that morlity can be ambiguos then you give your assent to all those child rapists out there who have but one thing on their mind.

Now, you should think of two things right now. If you believe that morality is subjective, or more appropriate, not able to be objective then that is the same thing as believing that somewhere someplace that a child rapist going about their “hobby” can not be truly considered immoral or wrong. Second, if you still believe morality is not objective and independent of human intervention then I would serious reevalute you consider to be true in this world. You can not cherry pick elements in this regards. You can not try and grab just a piece without getting the whole.

I’m guessing that you see the possibility of a great society devoid of any divine interference, but in actuality all you will get is death, destruction and chaos.
 
The argument for morality being subjective is still self defeating. Once you give people the right to decide what is wrong or right as soon as they decide you are wrong, you become wrong by your own very standards. If you grant the fact that people have the right to choose whether murder is wrong or right, when they decide its wrong and hence anyone who believes it could be right or wrong is wrong themselves you can not simply walk away and with the response “well it’s right for them but not for me.” If you give your child a choice between cookies and ice cream, you can’t get upset when he chooses one over the other. You automaticaly forfeit any say thereafter. As soon as you agree that people should and can choose the moral values they deem appropriate any criticism of them choosing an objective sense of morality must cease. You have forfeited your right to dispute their beliefs. You can not state that people have a right to choose and then criticise the manner in which they make their choice. That is the hypocricy.
There is no hypocrisy because when I say a murder should be punished I am not saying that he should be punished because murder is absolutely wrong. He should be punished because I and the majority of society say he should be punished because we find his action wrong from our subjective positions and we have the power to enforce our subjective views.
 
Let me explain it in the best circumstances I can currently think of. Morality must be objective because there is no way on this green earth that the rape of a 6 year old child could ever be considered moral. (and the circumstances of the incident I am hypothesizing need not be expressed in detail but I think you can probably guess the particulars.)
This is another example of you begging the question (and appealing to emotion). You are saying morality has to be objective because the rape of a 6 year is objectively immoral. You still need to establish that morality is objective.
As sooon as you make the statement that morality is subjective and thus dependent upon the views and desires of those who decide to make things moral or immoral you are expressing your indifference to their decision adn given assent to their right to choose whatever they may. You are giving them a blank check to create the most heinous violations of humanity the world has ever known. “Hitler may be excused, Pol Pot should be worshipped, the philosophy of Stalin should be taught in every classroom. Child rapists and pedophiles should be apologized to.” This is what you are advocating. A world where nothing is wrong and nothing is right unless someone, somewhere says so. A place where tomorrow a million Adolf Hitlers could rise up and you would let them do as they please by your moral and logical understanding for they are only wrong or right because somewhere somone feels so.
Making moral judgments against people like Hitler does nothing. Hitler was not stopped because of our moral judgments. He was stopped because we went to war against Hitler and the Nazis and bombed and shot them.
 
There is no hypocrisy because when I say a murder should be punished I am not saying that he should be punished because murder is absolutely wrong. He should be punished because I and the majority of society say he should be punished because we find his action wrong from our subjective positions and we have the power to enforce our subjective views.
So might makes right? Isn’t that the Biblical stance in the book of Joshua you were criticizing?

Basically what you are saying is that a majority constitutes morality, or more appropriatey a subjective view of the majority constitutes that which is moral? So, we are back to Darwinism where the strong make the rules.

First, your and societies loathing of murder come from the understanding of the divine. There is no way to escape that in this country. Everything you have been taught about moral objectivity has come from religion in this country except the atheists simply deny it and scratch God from the equation.

Second, the vast majority of people in this country do not condem murder because it offends their subject views. They condemn murder because it violates objective reality. You and society may agree on certain reasons why murder is wrong but you arrive at the same conclussion by vastly different reasoning.

Third, the subjective sense of morality is still self defeating no matter which way you try and spin it. Soon as you say everything is relative to the subjectivity of an individual or society you are starting the end of your very perspective on morality. As of yet, I have seen no way around this. Soon as you concede that others moral understanding is up to the individual (or society) you are going to be drawn and quartered by your very own reasoning. It’s like giving the order to fire at your own execution.
 
Richard Powers;3150693]This is another example of you begging the question (and appealing to emotion). You are saying morality has to be objective because the rape of a 6 year is objectively immoral. You still need to establish that morality is objective.
And this is you avoiding the point because it leaves you very few avenues to venture down if you address it.

Soon as you preach subjective morality the rape of a 6 year old becomes acceptable in your moral understanding of the world through ambiguity. An emotional response does come with this example but then again an emotional response comes with most instances of horrid injustice and immorality. We would not be human (or a rational human at least) if we considered the harming of such a child to ever in any instance be considered acceptable.

We can not unequivacably prove that morality is objective but again, we can not prove beyond a doubt that anything exists. However, what we have seen in this discussion is the shifting of the scales in the favor of objectivity because the case for subjectivity is a self lynching argument. Your in a hallway with many doors, many of which have now been shut.

You stand on very shaky ground or quite honestly, no ground at all. Soon as you embrace the belief of a relative or subjective morality you embrace much more than you originally thought. The law of unintended consequences comes with quite a fury in this instance above all others. When you talk of an emotional response being gained by the example of the 6 year old girl, you are quite correct. However, it is not just an emotional response but a logical and rational one as well. But still, there is something more that tells us this is wrong. Something that we can not put our fingers on.

You can keep pushing for this subjective morality, but remember, that brings your approval of things such as rape, murder and pedophile into this world with you yourself defending the right that they are just as right as we think them to be wrong. I wonder if tha freight train will cause you a moments hesitation and self reflection.🤷
Making moral judgments against people like Hitler does nothing.
Not ture at all. It furthers our resolve and lays clear exactly why we needed to enage in hostilities with the man. You diassociate morality with the common good. All the desire for the common good or the greater good is based on some sort of moral understanding. Our moral understanding of Adolf Hitler laid the foundation for our opposition for him in the war. Your understanding is incorrect. The first step in many instances is always a moral evaluation or much more common, a physical evaluation (such as I’m hungry). Such things have importance becasue they are the first step of many and the first step that points in a specific direction.
Hitler was not stopped because of our moral judgments.
Hitler was partly opposed by our moral judgments and was made an example and tribute to our moral judgement long after he has been dead.
He was stopped because we went to war against Hitler and the Nazis and bombed and shot them.
Bombs do not drop without reason. Moral objections to Hitler were part of the reason (the other reasons are obvious).
 
Soon as you preach subjective morality the rape of a 6 year old becomes acceptable in your moral understanding of the world through ambiguity. An emotional response does come with this example but then again an emotional response comes with most instances of horrid injustice and immorality. We would not be human (or a rational human at least) if we considered the harming of such a child to ever in any instance be considered acceptable.
Have you read The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright? It is about the rise of the Jihadist movement. In one part it tell the story of the Egyptian security force’s effort to disrupt the activities of al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) which would later merge into al-Qaeda. As a part of this effort two children were raped (although they were 11 not 6, but I do not think this is a difference that matters). They did this because they had failed at every effort to infiltrate al-Jihad. So they drugged an al-Jihad leader’s son and raped him and took pictures to blackmail him into giving them information. The Egyptian security force thought this was the best thing to do in the situation. They used rape because they knew the blackmail would definitely turn the boy (and later another boy). Now, you and I probably disagree with what they did. But are you really suggesting that they are not human? Or not rational humans? It is the cold rationality of the plan that is so sicking to me. It is a subjective emotional response on my part to their actions that tells me it is wrong. I have no objective test that I can draw on to say that they actions of Egyptians security force was wrong. But I can say it was wrong from my subjective position.

If they were not human or not rational humans, what were they?

continued
 
You can keep pushing for this subjective morality, but remember, that brings your approval of things such as rape, murder and pedophile into this world with you yourself defending the right that they are just as right as we think them to be wrong. I wonder if tha freight train will cause you a moments hesitation and self reflection.🤷
I do not support rape, murder, pedophilia because they are wrong under my subjective moral judgment. (There might be small exceptions like the one we discussed before.)

And my position is not that rape is objectively just as right as it is wrong depending on the person. My position is that it does not even make sense to say that rape is objectively right or wrong. Morality can only be judged from a subjective position.
 
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