Observations by a former catholic

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WmJackP

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For the sake of full disclosure, I am a skeptic–at least, on the principle doctrines on the church–by that I mean I simply cannot intellectually accept such propositions as virgin birth, resurrection, the “real presence”, as anything corresponding to reality. However, even though a skeptic, I was raised RC, and on many social issues I fully endorse traditional RC views. I suppose on one level I am an atheist. At least I don’t accept the notion of a personal God as anything plausible. Although, certainly, I would accept that the cosmos is in a sense “rational” and that the state of “being” is in and of itself evidence of some ultimate and primary principle—perhaps someday discoverable thru science.

Now for my observation:

I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
 
What makes you think that this Pope “walks the walk” more than his predecessors?
 
WmJackP said:
For the sake of full disclosure, I am a skeptic–at least, on the principle doctrines on the church–by that I mean I simply cannot intellectually accept such propositions as virgin birth, resurrection, the “real presence”, as anything corresponding to reality. However, even though a skeptic, I was raised RC, and on many social issues I fully endorse traditional RC views. I suppose on one level I am an atheist. At least I don’t accept the notion of a personal God as anything plausible. Although, certainly, I would accept that the cosmos is in a sense “rational” and that the state of “being” is in and of itself evidence of some ultimate and primary principle—perhaps someday discoverable thru science.

Now for my observation:

I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
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Was that article true about the pope going out at night to be with the poor?

Well, whether it was or wasn’t, glad you like the pope! 👍
 
WmJackP said:
For the sake of full disclosure, I am a skeptic–at least, on the principle doctrines on the church–by that I mean I simply cannot intellectually accept such propositions as virgin birth, resurrection, the “real presence”, as anything corresponding to reality. However, even though a skeptic, I was raised RC, and on many social issues I fully endorse traditional RC views. I suppose on one level I am an atheist. At least I don’t accept the notion of a personal God as anything plausible. Although, certainly, I would accept that the cosmos is in a sense “rational” and that the state of “being” is in and of itself evidence of some ultimate and primary principle—perhaps someday discoverable thru science.

Now for my observation:

I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
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Hi WJP,

It seems you accept the possibility of a “rational ultimate primary principle” - GOD if you will. But it also seems you think the only path to knowing God is that to yet be discovered by science.

Let’s say you are correct that there really is a rational ultimate primary principle - GOD. Could not that entity - GOD - REVEAL Himself? Could not man’s intellect REASON rightly that GOD does indeed exist and we are His?

I recommend an excellent short book: “Thomas Aquinas - Spiritual Master” by Father Robert Barron. You can buy it for less than $20 from Amazon. Be intellectually honest. Buy it. Read it. Then restate your concerns.
 
Country_Gal said:
What makes you think that this Pope “walks the walk” more than his predecessors?
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Well, the shoes of the fisherman are hard to fill, but, I would begin by being less regal, less doctrinaire, less judgmental and a whole lot more connected to the roots of humanity.

As for historical references pointing up my “observation”, I suspect you might find multiple examples in any reliable treatise of the papacy without any assistance from me,
 
First, it is good that you are here and have chosen to expose yourself to a differing point of view. In my experience, skepticism indicates only an adoption of a set of beliefs that one is comfortable with, while rejecting those which one is not comfortable with. It means that you have beliefs and opinions, which runs counter to those who seem to have neither. In truth, each of us holds rather firmly to a personal set of values and beliefs. I find that we are simply doubtful of the beliefs of others. Nevertheless…

What you are seeing in Pope Francis, if you will to see it, is evidence that mankind is made in the image and likeness of God. I think that, what you like in him, or what you are impressed with, is the degree to which Francis, by his words and actions, seeks to accomplish the revealed desires of the Godhead. He achieves this through humble service.

Francis follows a higher standard than a mere human and earthly standard. We see in the daily news what the human standard is. The lowest forms of human behavior are routinely displayed, fulfilling Steinbeck’s “man’s inhumanity to man” Francis takes his inspiration from a source higher than this earth.

Whether we believe this or not, God’s desires for mankind have been revealed to us. Francis chose to humble himself and serve his God. Humility is his hallmark - and humility is in grave shortage in our age. For that reason, it is so refreshing to observe it.
 
Not really knowing any of the Popes personally, it’s not for me to judge, but yes humility is rare in this age.
 
WmJackP said:
Well, the shoes of the fisherman are hard to fill, but, I would begin by being less regal, less doctrinaire, less judgmental and a whole lot more connected to the roots of humanity.

As for historical references pointing up my “observation”, I suspect you might find multiple examples in any reliable treatise of the papacy without any assistance from me,
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I was asking you, not wanting to do an extensive investigation.

I like the new Pope, but I think you can find a lot of people who aren’t regal, aren’t into doctrine, ‘seem’ less judgemental, and appear to be more down to earth. Just visit any pub. 😉
 
GratefulFred said:
Hi WJP,

It seems you accept the possibility of a “rational ultimate primary principle” - GOD if you will. But it also seems you think the only path to knowing God is that to yet be discovered by science.

Let’s say you are correct that there really is a rational ultimate primary principle - GOD. Could not that entity - GOD - REVEAL Himself? Could not man’s intellect REASON rightly that GOD does indeed exist and we are His?

I recommend an excellent short book: “Thomas Aquinas - Spiritual Master” by Father Robert Barron. You can buy it for less than $20 from Amazon. Be intellectually honest. Buy it. Read it. Then restate your concerns.
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And please let me recommend another book, Fundamentals of the Faith by Peter Kreeft. It is short essays of Christian Apologetics and it’s very logically organized (which isn’t my strong suit…) but I appreciate rational thought processes and I’m getting it for my son-in-law who is into physics and also a skeptic… it’s available on Kindle.
 
WmJackP said:
I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
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I hope that we all realize that it’s doubtful that our amazing Pope Francis is the first to do this, or things similar. He is however, the first to be reported on this extensively. This is a 21st century Pope (simply because this IS the 21st century), which will include extensive reporting and coverage that was simply unheard of not that long ago. It could be that Pope Francis knows that by allowing this type of coverage over the last few months it will inspire people, or even one person, to become Catholic, or at the least, Christian…or just better versions of their current selves.

I can assure you that many people do more than you realize, but don’t have a CNN reporter following their every breath and move.
 
Country_Gal said:
I like the new Pope, but I think you can find a lot of people who aren’t regal, aren’t into doctrine, ‘seem’ less judgemental, and appear to be more down to earth. Just visit any pub. 😉
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Certainly, there are lots of people who aren’t regal, doctrinal, judgmental and who possess a connection to the human condition, but, how many of them rise to positions of power or influence? It has been said that power corrupts. It can and does in many cases. Sometimes it is not so much corruption that power gives rise to as it is a sense of entitlement, narcissism or, at a minimum, intolerance toward those whose achievements fail to match or approach their own.

By way of example, I greatly admire Bill Clinton, but, my guess is that he would have neither the time or desire to have lunch with me. If Bill is not your cup of tea, then my guess would be the same for Sarah Palin, Scott Walker or any others who might better suit your political persuasion.

On the contrary, the stories I’ve read about JC are such that you more or less intuit that he’d have time–indeed, make time— for a simplistic “ordinary Joe” like me. Hence, when I read about similar behavior in a man like the new pope, I am all for that guy. He walks the walk like no one I have ever seen. I regret to say that I don’t get that sense from Benedict (who, because he basically quit his job, I have trouble even holding respect for) and, while I more or less like what I perceived in John Paul, I still never felt the magic that Frances projects. So, while I can hardly see how I would ever buy into what seems to be the ritualistic and doggerel aspects of RC doctrine, I will always defend and champion the principles on which it purports to be based, namely: love, charity, forgiveness, humility and an appreciation of the human condition. This Frances does as no one I have ever seen before.

hope I am clearer now.
 
Pope Benedict is an elderly man who made the wise choice to step down before he lost his ability to lead. I think that was a humble and wise decision.
 
So I have heard it said. And, I would agree, if Benedict were in some position other than as representative of the institution which purports to hold the seminal answer to mankind’s salvation. But Benedict is not just a CEO, not just a world leader, not just the captain of a multi-national complex. His office is said to “hold the keys” ----- it is symbolic of all that mankind can ever hope for. It is an office like no other. Symbolic like no other. Looked to and depended upon like no other. Abandonment of that position I think has done untold harm to its perception–at least to those like myself.
 
WmJackP said:
So I have heard it said. And, I would agree, if Benedict were in some position other than as representative of the institution which purports to hold the seminal answer to mankind’s salvation. But Benedict is not just a CEO, not just a world leader, not just the captain of a multi-national complex. His office is said to “hold the keys” ----- it is symbolic of all that mankind can ever hope for. It is an office like no other. Symbolic like no other. Looked to and depended upon like no other. Abandonment of that position I think has done untold harm to its perception–at least to those like myself.
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That’s strange view to have, to be honest. First of all, retiring from the Papacy has precedent, it just wasn’t done for a while before Pope Benedict did it…and secondly, he’s also a man like anyone else. If you no longer have the physical capability to lead, you step down…and God saw to it that we had a very good replacement ready.

I don’t see where lack of respect can possibly be validated in this scenario.
 
WmJackP said:
I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think you’ve fallen prey to self-interested, manipulative media rumour mongering with regards to this report. The Huffington Post specialises in this leading of people around by a nose-ring with nothing but ‘anonymous’, ‘off the record’, ‘agenda filled speculations’. It’s not about truth. It’s about dividing the Church ultimately.

“Vatican officials have so far rejected the rumors of the Pope’s escapades, saying that the story was “simply not true,” though that is unlikely to quell the story.”
 
WmJackP said:
For the sake of full disclosure, I am a skeptic–at least, on the principle doctrines on the church–by that I mean I simply cannot intellectually accept such propositions as virgin birth, resurrection, the “real presence”, as anything corresponding to reality. However, even though a skeptic, I was raised RC, and on many social issues I fully endorse traditional RC views. I suppose on one level I am an atheist. At least I don’t accept the notion of a personal God as anything plausible. Although, certainly, I would accept that the cosmos is in a sense “rational” and that the state of “being” is in and of itself evidence of some ultimate and primary principle—perhaps someday discoverable thru science.

Now for my observation:

I feel compelled to remark in this forum how incredibly impressed I am with the new Pope. Here is a man who truly “walks the walk”. I just read that he actually goes out at night surreptitiously to be with the poor. This is a man no one can fail to admire. Three cheers for my former faith. If everyone behaved with similar mindset, the problems on this planet would soon be over.
Click to expand...
Transubstantiation quickly makes sense when you realize that God can do anything and is beyond our intellectual categories.
 
Captain_America said:
Transubstantiation quickly makes sense when you realize that God can do anything and is beyond our intellectual categories.
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As to the concept of transubstantiation, 88 year old Dominican priest Fr. Antoninus Wall (who preaches parish missions to this day) makes a very intriguing analogy: He asks “What did you have for breakfast? Most of you probably had toast. Now, if your purely human body converted - transubstantiated - this bread into your living flesh, how can you believe that God cannot do the same?” He adds that, if you look around America, the problem is not that there is no transubstantiation occurring, but that there is far too much transubstantiation going on in our bodies! 😃
 
WmJackP said:
He walks the walk like no one I have ever seen. I regret to say that I don’t get that sense from Benedict (who, because he basically quit his job, I have trouble even holding respect for)
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The standard criticism of Benedict, which seemed to be implied in your earlier comment about Pope Francis, is that he was arrogant, “regal,” out of touch, concerned with power and pomp. And then he steps down, showing that he isn’t arrogant and is not concerned to hold on to power, and you say you can’t respect him as a result?

The poor guy can’t win for losing.

The only thing I don’t like about Pope Francis (which isn’t his fault) is that people keep comparing him to his predecessor like this!

Edwin
 
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