Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…let’s take it from a different angle…

The question remains – can “dull-of-hearing”, be separated from Isaiah6:10 and Matt13:15-16?

What is Jesus telling us?:

Is Jesus saying that these are apostates of the Faith or is He saying that they hold fast to some of the tenets of the Faith but are failing in others?

What would be the most important thing, would it not be the Love of God?

No. There are those who say they love God, and even think that they do – some are in Matt7:21-23. See also Jn8:42-43, “if God was your Father (if you loved and belonged to Him), then you would love Me.” See Jn5:39-47 — they thought they’d find salvation in the Scriptures; but Jesus said “You do not have love for God in yourselves”.

No, the most important thing in our Faith, is 1Jn5:11-13 — “He who HAS the Son has eternal life”. Only the kind of love that is in union with Jesus, is saved. He truly indwells the believer, or a person is NOT a believer.

Black-n-white.

Yet, the Love of God cannot be exercised in blind fury and in the absence of Mercy and Justice!

They are called to repentance; they are not told that they are in apostasy and cannot regain God’s Grace!

“Unrepentance”, is an unsaved location. Jesus said, “Unless you repent, you will perish.” Yes they can regain God’s grace, “if they do not continue in unbelief” – Rom11:23. See Heb4:11, “do not fall and fail to enter God’s rest by imitating Israel’s disobedience and unbelief.”

The apostate are not comparable to those who Rejected Jesus… Jesus states that even if they were to speak against the Son of man, it would be forgiven of them… what would not be forgiven of them is rejection of the Holy Spirit (ascribing evil to the Holy Spirit):

Yes. But — “apostates” are those who fall back into sin, which is unrepentance, which is non-fellowship with Jesus. Paul explains in Rm6 we are EITHER dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus, or dead to God and alive to sin. Black-n-white.

We Know that Jesus, the Son, is God; we Know that the Father is God; we Know that the Holy Spirit is God… so why would it matter if one would blaspheme against one and not the other Persons of God?

When Jesus says “it will never be forgiven, neither in this age or the next”, to me that implies unrepentance. For the reality of Jesus’ gospel is that we are “new creations” (2Cor5:17); literally, new men and women. The new person cannot be held accountable for what the old person did, we are different people now.

Heb8:12 “I will remember their sins no more”. Not some sins, not most sins, just sins.

Well, the Holy Spirit is the means of God’s Revelation; by rejecting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit man is rejecting God’s Word–God’s Revelation!

Apostasy rejects God’s Revelation! No man can be converted from his/her apostasy of God!:

The “sin-unto-death” is that which persists without repentance. Heb10:26-29. Because salvation is a union between two people, Jesus and the Holy Spirit truly indwell us adopted children, we cannot walk in sin; for Jesus and the Spirit would be participating, and they will not. 1Jn3:5.

Let’s consider a person who purports to being a devout Catholic… from birth to death the Sacraments are engaged in his/her family… there’s only one thing… he/she is part of a crime group–their livelihood and their lifestyle embrace all sorts of unrighteousness… by default that person lives in apostasy.

…then there’s a Catholic who does not engage an unrighteous life; yet often enough tempted and yields to temptation… why would you think that both are examples of apostasy?

Again – you and I are bound by verses like 1Jn5:11-13, “he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus does not have the life.”

And – “carnal” is one who dwells in fleshly sins; we are bound by Rom8:12-13, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10.

…a person living a minimalist Faith can still reconcile him/herself to active Fellowship with God… the weak in the Faith are not agents of apostasy.

Paul says in Rom6 we are either alive to sin and dead to God, or alive to God through Jesus and dead to sin. Jesus also said “He who is not with Me is against Me; he who does not gather, scatters.” There is no middle ground in those.

Those who are apostate of the Faith reject God; they are not confused or weak. they are stubborn in their resolve to reject God–that’s what makes the difference.

There are only two real-estates in the Universe — in Christ, or in sin. “He who has Jesus has eternal life; he who does not have Jesus does not have the life.”

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…let’s see… (it is difficult since we are speaking from different perspectives); we agree that Believers cannot engage sin (as living in sin); we also agree that Believers are susceptible to temptation and can and do fall pray to it; we also agree that the Sacrament of Reconciliation must be engaged if Believers yield to temptation; we also agree that Believers are under the same obligations as all of mankind (St. James 1:14-15).

Repentance is a walk; it is not a “tv game show”, where if you sin but die before confessing "BUZZZZ! OH I’m sorry you don’t win the prize!"

Yes sin breaks fellowship with God; but per passages like Col2:6-8, we walk in Jesus, and absolutely will repent if given time. The Spirit Himself tells us when we grieve Him; and by our love, we hurry to repent.

We also reject Antinomianism since it simply makes Christ a scape-goat and enables man to embrace the fallacy of enjoying an unrighteous existence.

“Scape-goats” were thought to take the sin away from a freshly-dead person, so one could still enter Heaven without repentance. Yes, you made an apt comparison.

So our differences comes to our perception of the term “carnal.”

Again – how do you and I resolve Rom8:12-13?

If we look at St. James 1:13, we might resolve this… though we are Called to Live in the Spirit, because we are weak/carnal we fail to keep our resolve to Live in the Spirit.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. James1:13-16Death — “thanatos”, physical death with implication of eternity in Hell.

You really think verse 13 portends “tempted/sinning but saved”?

The Spirit (the Holy Spirit) cannot engender or produce temptation; He cannot compel us to sin nor would He test or trick us into temptation/sin.

Yet, Believers do sin.

This is the Battle St. Paul has depicted in several passages. We hold that we are God’s children; yet, we are not perfect/holy but being perfected/made holy (Romans 5).

Yes — the battle elegantly portrayed in Rom7, the solution to the battle in chapter 8. We walk not after the flesh (if we do we must die!) — but by the Spirit’s power we put to death the flesh.

…daily…

So while I hold the flesh (the carnal man) accountable for my iniquities and my vulnerability to temptation, you reject the term as the abode of sin.

Though we may be at diverse grounds we hold the same cognizance that sin is death and that the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Light (reject sin).

Do we perceive different consequences for a “believer” that does not walk in the Light?

(“What fellowship has light, with darkness?”)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…ok… backslide means to remain in sin not to just yield to temptation and sin… I always thought that the term referred to simply yielding to temptation and committing sin; as you’ve explained it, yet it holds a deeper meaning since it is actually used to mean those who persevere in their unrighteousness (rejecting the Faith).

It’s a question of verb — “past tense”, or “present active participle”.

I must concur with you that a Christian (Believer) cannot be a “saved backslider.”

:hug3:

…our understanding differs on the issue of “Saved.” The Catholic perspective is that Salvation is a done deal, in Christ; yet, we are not “Saved” (as in OSAS) but that we are in a sojourn which includes all levels of maturity in the Faith.

In Philippians1:6, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion” – that is a promise. What would prevent that promise from being fulfilled?

To me, it goes right back to, “If God was your Father, you would love Me; for I have proceeded forth from the Father. …but you are of your father the devil, and you want to do his evil desires…” (Jn8:42-43)

He who has the Son has eternal life, he who does not have the Son does not have the life. CAN one “have-the-Son”, but not mature?

I don’t see how.

We also believe that none is so “holy” that cannot lose Salvation through personal rejection of God or personal determination to remain in a sinful existence (unrepentant from sin/unrighteousness).

As James says (1:14-16), we are deceived by our own lusts; lust conceived births sin, sin brings death. Over and over and over we’re warned “not to be deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from the living God”.

How can some who call themselves “Christian”, not think they’re all real warning?

This then is also the reason why I cannot fully agree with you on the term “carnal:”

…St. Paul’s warning seems to demonstrate that there are those who are weak/children in the Faith and while he does state that they walk according to man, the temperament does not seem to chastise them as apostate since the comparison is not being ready, as yet, to receive solid/spiritual admonishment.

What do you think about Eph4:17-24? (I’ll leave it for everyone to look that up!)

Conversely, apostate have already been there and done that… they are actively engaged in the rejection of the Faith and not just simply weak/child-like Believers.

He who walks in sin, is actively rejecting the faith; “he who is not with Me is against Me” — “he who does not have the Son does not have the life”.

 

[Gadgeteer]

What do you think about Eph4:17-24? (I’ll leave it for everyone to look that up!)

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
But you did not learn Christ in this way,
if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Eph4:17-24

How much time does it take to understand what Jesus accomplished, and grow to where we are “mature” and not “fleshly”? Doesn’t it take about as long as it has taken everyone to read these last few posts?

Perhaps my biggest complaint against Reformed Theology (aside from its charging God with causality in sin!) — is its tendency to stamp Scriptures with, “NOT REALLY!” They may not actually have the stamp and ink, but in their minds that is what they do.

To perceive that one can be “carnally/fleshly saved and even though SINNING is still in saved fellowship with Jesus” — isn’t that doing the same? Stamping “not really” over Rom8:12-13, over 1Cor6:9-11 and Eph5:5-6 and Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, 1Jn5:11-13, and many others?

How does Jesus make solid statements like, “He who is not with Me is against Me”, but we still permit ourselves to consider “carnally/sinfully-saved”?

 

[jcrichton]

Repentance is a walk; it is not a “tv game show”, where if you sin but die before confessing "BUZZZZ! OH I’m sorry you don’t win the prize!"

Yes sin breaks fellowship with God; but per passages like Col2:6-8, we walk in Jesus, and absolutely will repent if given time. The Spirit Himself tells us when we grieve Him; and by our love, we hurry to repent.

“Scape-goats” were thought to take the sin away from a freshly-dead person, so one could still enter Heaven without repentance. Yes, you made an apt comparison.

Again – how do you and I resolve Rom8:12-13?

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. James1:13-16Death — “thanatos”, physical death with implication of eternity in Hell.

You really think verse 13 portends “tempted/sinning but saved”?

Yes — the battle elegantly portrayed in Rom7, the solution to the battle in chapter 8. We walk not after the flesh (if we do we must die!) — but by the Spirit’s power we put to death the flesh.

…daily…

Do we perceive different consequences for a “believer” that does not walk in the Light?

(“What fellowship has light, with darkness?”)

Hi!

…again… it’s vocabulary…

Though the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Light, he/she sins.

Though the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Spirit, he/she sins.

The wages for sin is death both for non-Believers and for Believers.

The second a Believer sins he/she is no different from a non-Believer in respect to sin.

The difference between a Believer and a non-Believer is that the Believer is accountable to God and must repent (turn back to God) when he/she sins; a non-Believer holds that he/she is accountable to only him/herself, if and when he/she determines so, so a non-Believer will not turn to God.

An apostate is a person that Believed in God, once; at a determined point in his/her life that person turned from God and actively rejects God.

Catholics do not have a problem with “saved but” or “sinner but” because Catholic theology does not Teach “saved” and “unsaved;” rather, it Teaches Believer and non-Believer and repentance and non-repentance.

Catholic understanding of St. Paul’s “flesh” is given to the appetites of the flesh or “carnal;” but, it also means that we are vulnerable to sin and that we could allow the flesh/sin to govern us if we do not remain in the Spirit (Abiding in Christ).

Catholics do not believe that a person can be both sinful and holy simultaneously; yet, Catholics believe that a holy person can still be susceptible to sin (holy would be your standard indwelling of the Holy Spirit/Christ/God).

A person who engages sin as a lifestyle (continues to sin repetitively) is not living a holy life–even if they go through the motions (avail themselves of the Sacraments and attend daily/weekly Mass, etc.).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It’s a question of verb — “past tense”, or “present active participle”.

:hug3:

In Philippians1:6, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion” – that is a promise. What would prevent that promise from being fulfilled?

To me, it goes right back to, “If God was your Father, you would love Me; for I have proceeded forth from the Father. …but you are of your father the devil, and you want to do his evil desires…” (Jn8:42-43)

He who has the Son has eternal life, he who does not have the Son does not have the life. CAN one “have-the-Son”, but not mature?

I don’t see how.

As James says (1:14-16), we are deceived by our own lusts; lust conceived births sin, sin brings death. Over and over and over we’re warned “not to be deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from the living God”.

How can some who call themselves “Christian”, not think they’re all real warning?

What do you think about Eph4:17-24? (I’ll leave it for everyone to look that up!)

He who walks in sin, is actively rejecting the faith; “he who is not with Me is against Me” — “he who does not have the Son does not have the life”.

Hi!

…I know monotony is not a game… but here goes… again, vocabulary…

The Epistles were not Written for the “Saved” and “Holy” but for the Body of Believers… error (as heresy) crept in the Fold and it had to be addressed.

Look at the Apostles’ admonitions… they demonstrate that the Apostles are both heartbroken and patient:

22 But flee thou youthful desires, and pursue justice, faith, charity, and peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. 24 But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild towards all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, 26 And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil, by whom they are held captive at his will.

(2 Timothy 2:1-26)

25 And this is the promise which he hath promised us, life everlasting. 26 These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you. 27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him, that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be confounded by him at his coming. 29 If you know, that he is just, know ye, that every one also, who doth justice, is born of him. (1 St. John 2:1-29)
If all Believers were perfected in one single engagement of the Faith, why would there be a need to Write to them about Doctrine and perseverance in the Faith? What need would there be of warnings since they would be complete? What need would there be of “learning” (studying) if they were fully mature?

How could a “deceiver” seduce a fully mature Christian?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
But you did not learn Christ in this way,
if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Eph4:17-24

How much time does it take to understand what Jesus accomplished, and grow to where we are “mature” and not “fleshly”? Doesn’t it take about as long as it has taken everyone to read these last few posts?

Perhaps my biggest complaint against Reformed Theology (aside from its charging God with causality in sin!) — is its tendency to stamp Scriptures with, “NOT REALLY!” They may not actually have the stamp and ink, but in their minds that is what they do.

To perceive that one can be “carnally/fleshly saved and even though SINNING is still in saved fellowship with Jesus” — isn’t that doing the same? Stamping “not really” over Rom8:12-13, over 1Cor6:9-11 and Eph5:5-6 and Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, 1Jn5:11-13, and many others?

How does Jesus make solid statements like, “He who is not with Me is against Me”, but we still permit ourselves to consider “carnally/sinfully-saved”?

Hi!

…ok… I think that I’m beginning to understand… fleshly/carnally to them it means being conjoined with sin (Catholics would call that living a sinful life or living in sin); yet, they would hold that a “Saved” (a Believer who abides in God, and most importantly, in whom God Indwells) can be a consummate sinner and simultaneously be “Saved.”

This being the definition of “carnal/flesh” I must concur with you that it is an oxymoron; I love some of the visuals that we get from the Old Testament… Yahweh God gets angry at Israel and calls her an adulteress–there’s no escaping that visual: Israel took on another spouse in rejection of Yahweh God… St. Paul uses a similar imagery to demonstrate our relationship with Christ:

15 Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh. 17 But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit.

(1 Corinthians 6:15-17)
I think that this is the argument that you are putting forth… we cannot be joined to the Lord and to sin!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

…again… it’s vocabulary…

Though the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Light, he/she sins.

Though the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Spirit, he/she sins.

How often?

The wages for sin is death both for non-Believers and for Believers.

The second a Believer sins he/she is no different from a non-Believer in respect to sin.

The difference between a Believer and a non-Believer is that the Believer is accountable to God and must repent (turn back to God) when he/she sins; a non-Believer holds that he/she is accountable to only him/herself, if and when he/she determines so, so a non-Believer will not turn to God.

An apostate is a person that Believed in God, once; at a determined point in his/her life that person turned from God and actively rejects God.

What is the difference between an “unbeliever”, and a person who sins and does not repent?

Catholics do not have a problem with “saved but” or “sinner but” because Catholic theology does not Teach “saved” and “unsaved;” rather, it Teaches Believer and non-Believer and repentance and non-repentance.

How do you understand 1Jn5:11-13?

Catholic understanding of St. Paul’s “flesh” is given to the appetites of the flesh or “carnal;” but, it also means that we are vulnerable to sin and that we could allow the flesh/sin to govern us if we do not remain in the Spirit (Abiding in Christ).

Do you agree with what I said about Rom7 being a problem, and chapter 8 is the solution? That — we are not s’posed to live in chapter seven, but in chapter eight?

Catholics do not believe that a person can be both sinful and holy simultaneously; yet, Catholics believe that a holy person can still be susceptible to sin (holy would be your standard indwelling of the Holy Spirit/Christ/God).

That is Scriptural.

A person who engages sin as a lifestyle (continues to sin repetitively) is not living a holy life–even if they go through the motions (avail themselves of the Sacraments and attend daily/weekly Mass, etc.).

What would happen if such a person died suddenly, without a chance to go to confession, and to repent before God?

 

[Gadgeteer]

…I know monotony is not a game… but here goes… again, vocabulary…

The Epistles were not Written for the “Saved” and “Holy” but for the Body of Believers… error (as heresy) crept in the Fold and it had to be addressed.

The heart of this discussion, is — “what is salvation”? What does a saved person have, that an unsaved one does not? (In that, there is the presumption that one can be saved now, does not deny that he can later fall away.)

Look at the Apostles’ admonitions… they demonstrate that the Apostles are both heartbroken and patient:
(citations Timothy 2:1-26, 1 St. John 2:1-29)

In all these admonitions – “admonish truth-resisters that they may come to their senses repent and escape the devil’s snares”, and “abide in Him SO THAT we not aischynō-be-ashamed when He comes” — in all these admonitions, is the warning anything other than, “BE SAVED”? If one is unrepentent he perishes (Lk13:3). If one does not “cleanse himself” or “be diligent to be found blameless”, he perishes (Rev22:14, 2Tim2:21).

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 2Tim2:19-23
This passage says the same as your citations — if the choice is between “cleansing-oneself-and-BECOMING-vessel-of-honor”, what would you call someone who “engages in youthful lusts”, and “pursues unrighteousness”, he “does NOT pursue faith love and peace or calling on the Lord with a pure heart”, one who “is quarrelsome engaging in foolish and ignorant speculations”?

Is such a person — still saved?

If all Believers were perfected in one single engagement of the Faith, why would there be a need to Write to them about Doctrine and perseverance in the Faith? What need would there be of warnings since they would be complete? What need would there be of “learning” (studying) if they were fully mature?

You’re seeing only two extremes.

1. Perfect and sinless
2. Carnal and walking-in-sin

Scripture recognizes that we cannot be sinless (1Jn1:8); but we are admonished over and over to walk in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and not to abide in sin (Rom6:12-18).

How could a “deceiver” seduce a fully mature Christian?

We are to run with endurance the race, and avoid every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us. Same as 2Pet2:20-22 — one can KNOW the way of righteousness, but allow themselves to become seduced back into defilements and overcome…

Our Christian life is in between those two extremes. No we’re not sinless; but we walk in repentance, and when we DO sin it is a warning that we must draw ever closer to He who empowers us against sin.

“Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” James4:7-10

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

Hi again!

…ok… I think that I’m beginning to understand… fleshly/carnally to them it means being conjoined with sin (Catholics would call that living a sinful life or living in sin); yet, they would hold that a “Saved” (a Believer who abides in God, and most importantly, in whom God Indwells) can be a consummate sinner and simultaneously be “Saved.”

I’m a little confused; to whom are you referring with “them”, and “they”?

When Scripture uses the word “carnal”, what does it mean?

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?” 1Cor3:1-3

I can see why someone might be confused about the subjects’ salvation, with words like “infants in Christ”. Please consider:

“Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal5:19-21

So now we have to accommodate the words, “(infants) in Christ” — with “jealousy and strife”, attributes which Paul states exclude someone from eternal life! How do we do that? How do we make the two fit?

They don’t fit, they can’t. Now, if Paul is using the words of 1Cor3 as an admonishment towards SALVATION, then that fits! And therefore 1Cor5 mirrors the same idea, admonishing them towards being moral!

This being the definition of “carnal/flesh” I must concur with you that it is an oxymoron; I love some of the visuals that we get from the Old Testament… Yahweh God gets angry at Israel and calls her an adulteress–there’s no escaping that visual: Israel took on another spouse in rejection of Yahweh God… St. Paul uses a similar imagery to demonstrate our relationship with Christ:

Excellent citation, well done.

I think that this is the argument that you are putting forth… we cannot be joined to the Lord and to sin!

More than that; there are only two real-estates in the Universe — in Christ, or in sin. There is no “in-between”.

You and I agree that the truly-saved cannot walk in sin. :dts:
What remains, is to discern what they meant when they wrote, “carnal” (fleshly).

Per 1Cor3:3, “fleshly” includes JEALOUSY and STRIFE — which, per Gal5:19-21 is not consistent with “saved”.

And then I threw Gal5:24 into the mix, those WHO BELONG to Jesus HAVE CRUCIFIED their flesh — they are not carnal! Is there any way to propose that the reverse is not also true – that is, that those who ARE carnal do not belong to Christ?

 

[jcrichton]

How often?

Hi!

…the frequency and the type varies; what is important is what is done prior and after… if I claim to belong to the Light I must Walk in the Light; if I claim to Love God, I must Love humanity…

The Call to holiness compels the Believer to, on a daily/moment by moment basis engage in Jesus’ Fellowship, rejecting unrighteousness and practicing righteousness.

What is the difference between an “unbeliever”, and a person who sins and does not repent?

An unbeliever is a person who either rejects God or is ignorant of God; though with so much historical account it is doubtful, at least to me, that anyone can claim ignorance–unless they live under a totalitarian regime that controls information as well as “free thought.”

A Believer who refuses to repent is basically an apostate since he/she rejects what God has Revealed:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(1 St. John 1:8-10)

How do you understand 1Jn5:11-13?

In light of St. John 15:1-10–it is not just a matter of knowledge or claiming but a matter of abiding… to Believe in Christ (His Name) does not simply means that we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior but that we are in Fellowship with Him: “if you Love Me, Obey my Commandments…”

Do you agree with what I said about Rom7 being a problem,

and chapter 8 is the solution? That — we are not s’posed to live in chapter seven, but in chapter eight?
I fully concur. We are Called to reject sin and Live in the Spirit; chapter 8 ends with the premise of the sheep being placed in God’s Hand–nothing can take the sheep from God’s Hand… the problem remains that the sheep’s freewill can cause the sheep to abandon Divine Providence.

A person who engages sin as a lifestyle (continues to sin repetitively) is not living a holy life–even if they go through the motions (avail themselves of the Sacraments and attend daily/weekly Mass, etc.).

What would happen if such a person died suddenly, without a chance to go to confession, and to repent before God?

…as I stated before, the application of the wages of sin is the same for Believer and non-Believer alike: the wages of sin is death.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The heart of this discussion, is — “what is salvation”? What does a saved person have, that an unsaved one does not? (In that, there is the presumption that one can be saved now, does not deny that he can later fall away.)

Hi!

…Fellowship with Christ… this is what separates the Believer from the non-Believer; the Believer’s Salvation is Hidden in Christ:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

(1 St. Peter 1:3-5)

In all these admonitions – "admonish truth-resisters that they may come to their senses

repent and escape the devil’s snares", and “abide in Him SO THAT we not aischynō-be-ashamed when He comes” — in all these admonitions, is the warning anything other than, “BE SAVED”? If one is unrepentent he perishes (Lk13:3). If one does not “cleanse himself” or “be diligent to be found blameless”, he perishes (Rev22:14, 2Tim2:21).
Correct! …though I would put it: “be holy.”

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 2Tim2:19-23

This passage says the same as your citations — if the choice is between “cleansing-oneself-and-BECOMING-vessel-of-honor”, what would you call someone who “engages in youthful lusts”, and “pursues unrighteousness”, he “does NOT pursue faith love and peace or calling on the Lord with a pure heart”, one who “is quarrelsome engaging in foolish and ignorant speculations”?

Is such a person — still saved?
Since those who engage in sin/unrighteousness are in essence rejecting Christ, there’s nothing but the promise of the wages of sin for them. Jesus clearly stated that those who do not gather with Him will be scattered–there’s no middle ground: ‘be Holy, for I, Yahweh, your God, AM HOLY!’

You’re seeing only two extremes.

1. Perfect and sinless
2. Carnal and walking-in-sin

Scripture recognizes that we cannot be sinless (1Jn1:8); but we are admonished over and over to walk in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and not to abide in sin (Rom6:12-18).

We are to run with endurance the race, and avoid every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us.

Same as 2Pet2:20-22 — one can KNOW the way of righteousness, but allow themselves to become seduced back into defilements and overcome…

Our Christian life is in between those two extremes. No we’re not sinless; but we walk in repentance, and when we DO sin it is a warning that we must draw ever closer to He who empowers us against sin.

“Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.” James4:7-10
…yes, this is what I mean about vocabulary; we are both arguing that Believers must Abide in Christ so that Christ may Abide in them; that we are Called to reject Satan (sin) and to draw nigh (closer) to God and He will draw nigh to you!

Since “saved” is not part of my vocabulary I do not engage Salvation from that perspective; I see my Salvation Hidden (Secured by) in Christ; not as something that I already have obtained but something that He has gained for me… a reward, if you will, that I will receive, if I will the race: Stand for Christ till the End!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi again!

I’m a little confused; to whom are you referring with “them”, and “they”?

Hi!

…your statement “carnally-Saved”

The issue is that “Saved” is not a term I use since Catholic theology does not engage in “Saved” vs. “unsaved.”

When Scripture uses the word “carnal”, what does it mean?

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?” 1Cor3:1-3

I can see why someone might be confused about the subjects’ salvation, with words like “infants in Christ”. Please consider:

“Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal5:19-21
…as stated before, I do not argue etymology–but consider the opening address… could St. Paul be speaking to non-Believers or to those who reject the Faith as “Brethren?” How would that be reconciled with:

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

(2 Corinthians 6:14)
St. Paul is in deed addressing Believers. He is reminding them and Commanding them to refrain from unrighteousness; he is compelling them to aspire to the holy things–that which abide in Christ’s Fellowship.

So it is not a problem of interpretation of Scriptures but with our respective use of vocabulary.

So now we have to accommodate the words, “(infants) in Christ” — with “jealousy and strife”, attributes which Paul states exclude someone from eternal life

! How do we do that? How do we make the two fit?

They don’t fit, they can’t. Now, if Paul is using the words of 1Cor3 as an admonishment towards SALVATION, then that fits! And therefore 1Cor5 mirrors the same idea, admonishing them towards being moral!
St. Paul is chastising the error that is creeping in amongst the Believers; he is not rejecting them and calling them un-Believers; he is Commanding them to reject all practices of unrighteousness which includes dissention and favoritism (basically the Church was being splintered and sectioned out according to human preferences–‘my preacher…’); the Believers were practicing error; they returned to their earlier state of infancy. This error could and was corrected. Had they remained in the error or proceeded to succeed from the Church then they would have created their own Gospel, according to their personal preferences instead of humbly submitting to Apostolic Teaching.

More

than that; there are only two real-estates in the Universe — in Christ, or in sin. There is no “in-between”.

You and I agree that the truly-saved cannot walk in sin. :dts:
What remains, is to discern what they meant when they wrote, “carnal” (fleshly).

Per 1Cor3:3, “fleshly” includes JEALOUSY and STRIFE — which, per Gal5:19-21 is not consistent with “saved”.

And then I threw Gal5:24 into the mix, those WHO BELONG to Jesus HAVE CRUCIFIED their flesh — they are not carnal! Is there any way to propose that the reverse is not also true – that is, that those who ARE carnal do not belong to Christ?
…again, where you see a finished “Saved” product, I see a Believer in progress; this is the Battle:

17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would.

(Galatians 5:17)
…because the Believers are in transition (earth to Heaven–unholy to holy) they are susceptible (vulnerable) to temptation and to returning to familiar grounds/acts.

Yes, we belong to Jesus and in Him we have Crucified the flesh… but we are not Holy (as in as HOLY as God–Perfect) but in the process of becoming Holy:

18 But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

(2 Corinthians 3:18)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

Hi, JCRichton. Again I apologize for being absent. At least everyone knows I’m not a “trouble-maker” here to cause mischief! :hug3:

Though the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Spirit, he/she sins.

How often?

…the frequency and the type varies; what is important is what is done prior and after… if I claim to belong to the Light I must Walk in the Light; if I claim to Love God, I must Love humanity…

Exactly your words — WALK in the Light, (we) do not walk in sin. Perhaps the most important principle of Christianity is that “sin”, is exactly the same as “unbelief”. Note how Hebrews words it in chapters 3-4 — Israel failed to enter the Promised Land because of disobedience (3:18), which in the very next verse is called “unbelief”. In verse 4:2 “the message did not profit them because they did not unite it with faith”.

The Call to holiness compels the Believer to, on a daily/moment by moment basis engage in Jesus’ Fellowship, rejecting unrighteousness and practicing righteousness.

I perceive that “fellowship”, is salvation; there is no such thing as a believer who has eternal life, who does not walk in fellowship with Jesus. (Jn17:3, 1Jn1:3) Do we disagree?

What is the difference between an “unbeliever”, and a person who sins and does not repent?

An unbeliever is a person who either rejects God or is ignorant of God; though with so much historical account it is doubtful, at least to me, that anyone can claim ignorance–unless they live under a totalitarian regime that controls information as well as “free thought.”

Yes – and — those who have never heard the name “Jesus”, are still bound to Acts4:12 (“there is no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”). Consider Eskimos, Aborigines, Bushmen – before missionaries, they could not know the name Jesus. Are they barred from eternal life? Of course not. The Creator can be known through what He has made (Rom1:19-20); they are held to their understanding. Can a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist enter Heaven? Of course; if they were never told of Jesus, they can still have Him as much as they are able to understand. Jesus is a real person; I still tell people “if you want to know if He’s real and if He wants you, ASK Him — if you mean it, He will answer!”

A Believer who refuses to repent is basically an apostate since he/she rejects what God has Revealed:
(citation 1 St. John 1:8-10)

!

“Unbelief”, is “unrepentance”, is “WALKING in sin”. It’s all the same location. There are only two real-estates in the Universe — in Christ, or in Sin. (Rom6:1-14!)

How do you understand 1Jn5:11-13?

In light of St. John 15:1-10–it is not just a matter of knowledge or claiming but a matter of abiding… to Believe in Christ (His Name) does not simply means that we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior but that we are in Fellowship with Him: “if you Love Me, Obey my Commandments…”

You know, you and I agree on many things. Rather, you and I agree with Scripture.

Do you agree with what I said about Rom7 being a problem, and chapter 8 is the solution? That — we are not s’posed to live in chapter seven, but in chapter eight?

I fully concur. We are Called to reject sin and Live in the Spirit; chapter 8 ends with the premise of the sheep being placed in God’s Hand–nothing can take the sheep from God’s Hand… the problem remains that the sheep’s freewill can cause the sheep to abandon Divine Providence.

Very astute – Calvinists claim “nothing, NOT EVEN OURSELVES can remove us from His hand! John10:26-28!”

That’s not what Jesus said, and not what John recorded! Nothing can FORCE (harpazo!) us from His hand! Exactly as you said a sheep’s free will can cause the sheep to abandon His grace!

Goodness – I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to correct people on Luke15; no, the Prodigal was not still a son WHEN HE WAS A CORPSE. He was lost, but was found (again) — was dead, but now is alive again! “Lost” “dead” “corpse”, is not “still a son!”

“I would like you to meet my SON – yes I know he’s just a pile of bones, he’s been dead for some time now; but he’s STILL MY SON! Son, shake this nice man’s hand!”

A person who engages sin as a lifestyle (continues to sin repetitively) is not living a holy life–even if they go through the motions (avail themselves of the Sacraments and attend daily/weekly Mass, etc.).

What would happen if such a person died suddenly, without a chance to go to confession, and to repent before God?

…as I stated before, the application of the wages of sin is the same for Believer and non-Believer alike: the wages of sin is death.

Yet, if we walk in Jesus, then we are likewise walking in repentance. I’m confident you and I agree that God “does not run a great TV game-show” — suppose while driving we have a wrong angry thought, but wreck the car and die before we can actually speak repentance. Does God honor the intent of our hearts, to walk in Him and abide in repentance?

The answer has to be “yes”…

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

The heart of this discussion, is — “what is salvation”? What does a saved person have, that an unsaved one does not? (In that, there is the presumption that one can be saved now, does not deny that he can later fall away.)

…Fellowship with Christ… this is what separates the Believer from the non-Believer; the Believer’s Salvation is Hidden in Christ:
(citation 1 St. Peter 1:3-5)

That’s exactly it! Therefore, there cannot be such a thing as “carnally-saved”. Because he who walks after the flesh, does not walk in fellowship with Him!

in all these admonitions, is the warning anything other than, “BE SAVED”? If one is unrepentent he perishes (Lk13:3). If one does not “cleanse himself” or “be diligent to be found blameless”, he perishes (Rev22:14, 2Tim2:21).

Correct! …though I would put it: "be holy."And here is the entire issue — in vain do most strive to “pursue holiness”, rather than to pursue HIM. In Isaiah61:10 He clothes us with HIS righteousness, with HIS garment of salvation. Our holiness is only His, in and through us; by ourselves the only holiness within our reach is as filthy rags. (The Hebrew on “filthy rags” is much more disgusting!)

Since those who engage in sin/unrighteousness are in essence rejecting Christ, there’s nothing but the promise of the wages of sin for them. Jesus clearly stated that those who do not gather with Him will be scattered–there’s no middle ground: ‘be Holy, for I, Yahweh, your God, AM HOLY!’

And in ALL of that, “draw near to Him” — THAT is how we become holy! The closer we are to Him, the more His holiness indwells and shines through us!

That’s the whole secret!

…yes, this is what I mean about vocabulary; we are both arguing that Believers must Abide in Christ so that Christ may Abide in them; that we are Called to reject satan (sin) and to draw nigh (closer) to God and He will draw nigh to you!

In all of that, we do not focus on satan (don’t even think about him), but rather we accept that our sin was DEFEATED by Jesus on the Cross, long ago! The more we abide in Him, the more we have already overcome sin and unholiness in ourselves!

Since “saved” is not part of my vocabulary I do not engage Salvation from that perspective; I see my Salvation Hidden (Secured by) in Christ; not as something that I already have obtained but something that He has gained for me… a reward, if you will, that I will receive, if I will the race: Stand for Christ till the End!

(I’m going to add this to the next post…)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Since “saved” is not part of my vocabulary I do not engage Salvation from that perspective; I see my Salvation Hidden (Secured by) in Christ; not as something that I already have obtained but something that He has gained for me… a reward, if you will, that I will receive, if I will the race: Stand for Christ till the End!

…your statement “carnally-Saved”

The issue is that “Saved” is not a term I use since Catholic theology does not engage in “Saved” vs. “unsaved.”

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that!

Nevertheless (bet you knew I was gonna say that!) — 1Jn5:11-13 remains, “he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus has not the life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life!”

Because you and I (and likely most others here) recognize that “having-Jesus”, is forfeitable (see Heb3:12-14 “[do not be] deceived by sin to falling away from the living God, we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast firm until the end”) — we are really in agreement about being in a position of “having-eternal-life” now, possessing it, as we possess Jesus. If we “go too far and CEASE abiding in Jesus’ teachings, we NO LONGER have Jesus or the Father”, 2Jn1:7-9.

Now – previous post you cited 1Pet1:4-5, perfect citation; the INHERITANCE, is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by His power through (our!) faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time. His power, and by the outcome of our faith salvation, 1Pet1:9.

…as stated before, I do not argue etymology–but consider the opening address… could St. Paul be speaking to non-Believers or to those who reject the Faith as “Brethren?” How would that be reconciled with: (citation 2Cor6:14 “do not be yoked with unbelievers”)?

Clearly in passages like 1Cor3:1-3, and Heb5:11-14, he’s speaking to those who consider themselves “saved”. But in recognizing their sinful state (see also 1Cor5:1ff) — he’s really admonishing them to BE saved, isn’t he?

How can we deny “jealousy/strife” in 1Cor3:1-3, connects with Gal5:19-21 “those who practice these will not inherit”?

And so there really is no argument between you and me and anyone today, we have Paul’s clear words.

Don’t we?

St. Paul is indeed addressing Believers. He is reminding them and Commanding them to refrain from unrighteousness; he is compelling them to aspire to the holy things–that which abide in Christ’s Fellowship.

Please consider — in admonishing them AS “believers”, challenging them to “refrain from unrighteousness” (see 1Cor10:1-12, Eph4:17-24, and many others) — is he doing anything other than saying, “Be sure that you have salvation as much as you THINK you do”?

It’s the same in 2Cor13:5 — TEST yourselves to see if you are in the faith! For Christ is in you UNLESS YOU FAIL the test!

It’s the same in Peter’s words in 2:1:5-11! Therefore (against the man who WAS purified/saved, but now is NOT) — be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast, as long as these godly fruits are yours you will not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates to eternity will BE provided to you (and in no other way!)!!!

Do you think I perceive these verses correctly, or am I “off-target”?

 

[Gadgeteer]

So it is not a problem of interpretation of Scriptures but with our respective use of vocabulary.

Perhaps we can agree on “possess-eternal-life”. You and I know from Scripture we can possess eternal life, and we can turn away from it (from Him!).

St. Paul is chastising the error that is creeping in amongst the Believers; he is not rejecting them and calling them un-Believers; he is Commanding them to reject all practices of unrighteousness which includes dissension and favoritism (basically the Church was being splintered and sectioned out according to human preferences–‘my preacher…’); the Believers were practicing error; they returned to their earlier state of infancy. This error could and was corrected. Had they remained in the error or proceeded to succeed from the Church then they would have created their own Gospel, according to their personal preferences instead of humbly submitting to Apostolic Teaching.

The issue is whether he’s saying — “Yes you are saved but you really should turn away from wickedness”…

…or if he’s saying — “You should turn away from wickedness and back to Jesus that you not BE FOUND unsaved, and perish!” (2Pet3:14, James2:26-28, etc!)

Because Paul conspicuously uses words in 1Cor3 like “strife” and “jealousy”, because those very words block a person from salvation in Gal5:19-21, it really has to mean that they should turn back to salvation. Doesn’t it?

…again, where you see a finished “Saved” product, I see a Believer in progress;

No, not at all. Salvation is TWO-FOLD — we are saved now, we who have Jesus and walk in Him (1Jn5:11-13). And we are BEING saved we who abide in Him 1Cor1:18. “Sōzō” really is in present-passive-participle in 1Cor1:18, “we who are BEING SAVED”!

this is the Battle: (citation Galatians 5:17)

…because the Believers are in transition (earth to Heaven–unholy to holy) they are susceptible (vulnerable) to temptation and to returning to familiar grounds/acts.

Yes; yet — the battle is for our very (eternal) lives! If we TURN BACK to wickedness, though we are called “immature/milk-eaters”, no way we expect to still waltz through them pearly gates!

Yes, we belong to Jesus and in Him we have Crucified the flesh… but we are not Holy (as in as HOLY as God–Perfect) but in the process of becoming Holy:

Salvation is not a process; it was completed long ago:

“IT IS FINISHED!”

It is finished; literally, “tetelestai”, I have CANCELED the debt, it’s a DONE DEAL.

…and, it is a place in which (in Whom!) we must abide!

He who has Jesus has eternal life, you may KNOW. 1Jn5:11-13
BUT — he who goes too far and ceases to abide in the teaching, (no longer) has Jesus. 2Jn1:7-9.

Jcrichton, you and I do understand Scripture alike; I have no doubt you and I are brothers, forever – as are most others here. We shall exult in His presence, as true family, forever!

:grouphug:

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, JCRichton. Again I apologize for being absent. At least everyone knows I’m not a “trouble-maker” here to cause mischief! :hug3:

Hi!

…welcome back! I thought you took a wrong turn on your way to your favorite coffee house… and then just kept going… :coffeeread:

Exactly your words — WALK in the Light, (we) do not walk in sin. Perhaps the most important principle of Christianity is that “sin”, is exactly the same as “unbelief”. Note how Hebrews words it in chapters 3-4 — Israel failed to enter the Promised Land because of disobedience (3:18), which in the very next verse is called “unbelief”.

In verse 4:2 “the message did not profit them because they did not unite it with faith”.

I perceive that “fellowship”, is salvation; there is no such thing as a believer who has eternal life, who does not walk in fellowship with Jesus. (Jn17:3, 1Jn1:3) Do we disagree?
…let’s see; as far as I understand it, Catholics and non-Catholics hold different meanings… we do not believe in “Saved” as something that takes place but as something that is found in Jesus; we are Saved by and in Him; this Salvation is our Hope but not a currency that we own; Fellowship is living our lives in Christ… through the Church, His Body, and the Sacraments… a Believer who refuses to repent from sin or who lives a life of sin is not in fellowship with Christ… a Believer can fail/sin; a Believer can reject Christ; if a Believer sins, he/she can regain Grace (be put right with God) through Confession; a Believer that rejects Christ ceases to be a Believer.

Yes – and — those who have never heard

the name “Jesus”, are still bound to Acts4:12 (“there is no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”). Consider Eskimos, Aborigines, Bushmen – before missionaries, they could not know the name Jesus. Are they barred from eternal life? Of course not. The Creator can be known through what He has made (Rom1:19-20); they are held to their understanding. Can a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist enter Heaven? Of course; if they were never told of Jesus, they can still have Him as much as they are able to understand. Jesus is a real person; I still tell people “if you want to know if He’s real and if He wants you, ASK Him — if you mean it, He will answer!”
I concur that there’s but one Name by which we are saved; I also concur that Rom 1:19-20 is sufficient verdict on God’s Revelation to all. I also believe that even those who have never ever heard of Yahweh God or Jesus Christ (not those feign ignorance) can be Saved through the Holy Spirit’s Intercedence.

Very astute – Calvinists

claim “nothing, NOT EVEN OURSELVES can remove us from His hand! John10:26-28!”

That’s not what Jesus said, and not what John recorded! Nothing can FORCE (harpazo!) us from His hand! Exactly as you said a sheep’s free will can cause the sheep to abandon His grace!
…wouldn’t that make God the worst of tyrants, forcing those who reject Him to remain in His Control?

Goodness – I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to correct people on Luke15; no, the Prodigal was not still a son WHEN HE WAS A CORPSE

. He was lost, but was found (again) — was dead, but now is alive again! “Lost” “dead” “corpse”, is not “still a son!”

“I would like you to meet my SON – yes I know he’s just a pile of bones, he’s been dead for some time now; but he’s STILL MY SON! Son, shake this nice man’s hand!”
…I think here lies “perspective;” to many the prodigal son is not dead and does not cease being a “son” because they view it in God’s eye: His Mercy and Love is never removed from man–God is patiently awaiting the return of the sinner.

Yet, a sinner is not alive–he/she is dead Spiritually.

Yet, if we walk

in Jesus, then we are likewise walking in repentance. I’m confident you and I agree that God “does not run a great TV game-show” — suppose while driving we have a wrong angry thought, but wreck the car and die before we can actually speak repentance. Does God honor the intent of our hearts, to walk in Him and abide in repentance?

The answer has to be “yes”…
This is a pure act of the Holy Spirit; He searches the depths of our heart, mind, and Spirit; He is able and willing to Pray for us and to lift (rescue) us from our weakness… yet, as with the “good thief” on the cross, intention must be mustered… in a split second before death our Spirit can cry out and the Holy Spirit can secure our Communion with God!

…but that is, sorry for the pun, a Hail Mary–we are not Called to rely on miraculous chances!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s exactly it! Therefore, there cannot be such a thing as “carnally-saved”. Because he who walks after the flesh, does not walk in fellowship with Him!

Hi!

…understanding that “carnally-saved” is someone who while engaged in sin purports to have Fellowship (Salvation) with Christ… it is a void claim… we cannot be simply listeners of the Word, we must engage the Word!

And here is the entire issue

— in vain do most strive to “pursue holiness”, rather than to pursue HIM. In Isaiah61:10 He clothes us with HIS righteousness, with HIS garment of salvation. Our holiness is only His, in and through us; by ourselves the only holiness within our reach is as filthy rags. (The Hebrew on “filthy rags” is much more disgusting!)

And in ALL of that, “draw near to Him” — THAT is how we become holy! The closer we are to Him, the more His holiness indwells and shines through us!

That’s the whole secret!
I think here is another issue of vocabulary… to many “being holy” is striving to do/be “good” or a “place” where they can judge the failures of others (the Pharisee and the Publican at the Temple). Rather, being Holy means being in Fellowship with Christ: ‘…if you Love Me, Obey My Commandments…’

One Major Commandment is: ‘…abide in Me, that I may Abide in you…’

In all of that, we do not focus on satan (don’t even think

about him), but rather we accept that our sin was DEFEATED by Jesus on the Cross, long ago! The more we abide in Him, the more we have already overcome sin and unholiness in ourselves!
Our Lifeline is not knowing or engaging Satan; our Lifeline is that Water that flows from that Fountain… we are to engage Christ; we are to engage the Holy Spirit!

…and yes, that Holiness that proceeds from God deepens/grows as we abide in Christ and allow Him to Abide in us!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that!

Nevertheless (bet you knew I was gonna say that!) — 1Jn5:11-13 remains, “he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus has not the life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life!”

Because you and I (and likely most others here) recognize that “having-Jesus”, is forfeitable (see Heb3:12-14 “[do not be] deceived by sin to falling away from the living God, we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast firm until the end”) — we are really in agreement about being in a position of “having-eternal-life” now, possessing it, as we possess Jesus. If we “go too far and CEASE abiding in Jesus’ teachings, we NO LONGER have Jesus or the Father”, 2Jn1:7-9.

Now – previous post you cited 1Pet1:4-5, perfect citation; the INHERITANCE, is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by His power through (our!) faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time. His power, and by the outcome of our faith salvation, 1Pet1:9.

Hi!

See?, we are closer than our vocabulary leads us to believe… that’s exactly how we, Catholics, view Salvation… our Salvation (Eternal Life), God’s Gift, is patent (remains) but we must, as Christ Commands, persevere till the end… we must Stand (abide in Christ); in that Fellowship (abiding) we cannot judge ourselves as accomplished or God forever “captured” and our “Salvation” guaranteed–we can and are able to fail/fall short through our own temerity or willful disobedience (rejection of God/giving into temptation).

Clearly in passages like 1Cor3:1-3, and Heb5:11-14, he’s speaking to those who consider themselves

“saved”. But in recognizing their sinful state (see also 1Cor5:1ff) — he’s really admonishing them to BE saved, isn’t he?

How can we deny “jealousy/strife” in 1Cor3:1-3, connects with Gal5:19-21 “those who practice these will not inherit”?

And so there really is no argument between you and me and anyone today, we have Paul’s clear words.

Don’t we?

Please consider — in admonishing them AS “believers”, challenging them to “refrain from unrighteousness” (see 1Cor10:1-12, Eph4:17-24, and many others) — is he doing anything other than saying, “Be sure that you have salvation as much as you THINK you do”?

It’s the same in 2Cor13:5 — TEST yourselves to see if you are in the faith! For Christ is in you UNLESS YOU FAIL the test!

It’s the same in Peter’s words in 2:1:5-11! Therefore (against the man who WAS purified/saved, but now is NOT) — be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast, as long as these godly fruits are yours you will not stumble (ptaio-become-wretched!), in THIS way the gates to eternity will BE provided to you (and in no other way!)!!!

Do you think I perceive these verses correctly, or am I “off-target”?
…again, our vocabulary may differ but we are on the same plane… anyone who claims Fellowship with the Son must Be in Fellowship with the Father (that takes out those who seek to pit the Son against the Father); yet, this fellowship must be constantly maintained… the Believer can fail/fall short of Salvation by willfully engaging sin and rejecting God’s Authority. It is interesting how the Apostles Preached Salvation in Christ not “Salvation guaranteed and experienced.”

I love these passages that warn that we can fail; that we can fall short; that we can falter; that we must stay on guard even against our own personal belief/understanding… that we must rely on the Father and on the Son… that, in the Holy Spirit, our Hope is Sealed as an Inheritance!

…but here’s a little something people seem to overlook:

8 Watch yourselves, or all our work

will be lost and not get the reward it deserves. (2 St. Peter 1:8)
…there’s an engagement of holiness (work of Salvation) in which we (Believers/those who are in Fellowship with Christ) are all involved–and do you see both the loss of Salvation and the Hidden Salvation?

Maran atha!

Angel