Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…yeah, I’ve noticed that there are certain catch-terms that people apply when reasoning through Scriptures that do not support their theologies/arguments…

…I still have not decided if they are willfully usurping God’s Authority or if they are naïve enough to believe their own construct as being Inspired by the Holy Spirit…

The Spirit is gentle in His approach; He is completely “resistible” (Acts7:51), He can be grieved (Eph4:30), and He can be insulted (Heb10:29). The problem with OSAS followers, they read those verses and do not acknowledge that one who “resists” or “grieves” or “insults” the Spirit, cannot be still united WITH Him…

I liken these to the government acceptance of “labels” on cigarettes and food products… the corporations and the government know that they are blocking the dam’s leak with a finger, but they merrily pronounce: ‘it’s safe!’

Hey – cigarettes are “natural”, right? But are they “good”?

Believers, rather than making empty pronouncements, should seek to understand God’s Word from the Apostolic Teachings!

That is why my approach is to take the actual verses they think promotes “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”, and hold up the context which absolutely does not permit “Predestined Salvation”. In most cases the context promotes just the opposite of OSAS.

…and then try to get them to talk about all of the verses which plainly warn against “turning away from God and salvation”. They get reaaaaaalllly quiet…

…I think from the war/spy genre movies–as in total control/obliteration or complete subjugation…

It’s just that if all of the warnings against apostasy, are mere empty “effective-means-to-KEEP-us-saved”, how powerful is God’s sovereignty?

…and why would God Ordain that those who “are not to be Saved” be Taught about the Salvation which they will never inherit?

As long as I live I will never understand why we even need to bother telling anyone about salvation at all! I mean, if God’s already made the decision (“Predestined Salvation”), it’s not like we can change the unpredestined from their sin and unbelief. And the “predestined”, why — they’re gonna be saved anyway, no matter what anyone does?

Let’s just go get a soda and watch that movie-marathon on TV and not worry about “go unto the WORLD preaching the Gospel”!

(Sigh.)

…that is why it is important to hold to the entirety of Sacred Scriptures rather than exclusionary excerpts… it is interesting how Catholicism continues to make this evident… think of the term Theology of the Body–while it focuses on the human experience… it actually is the soundboard for how we are to view and understand Scriptures: the whole Body of Christ.

Have you ever talked with those who were Calvinist, but rejected it? Calvinists commonly assert that they have been “taught by the Spirit”, or “matured”, or “studied” — the beginning of leaving the doctrine is really a humbling experience. Starting to think, “I am not a special favorite of God whom He holds strongly to His breast” — no, God does not play favorites (Rom2:11, Acts10:34-35, Col3:25) — Paul warns us not to be conceited but fear — for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israelites!), neither will He spare US, if we do not continue in faith! (Rom11:18-23!)

…I wonder why Paul uses words like “conceited”, and “arrogant”???

 

[jcrichton]

The Spirit is gentle in His approach; He is completely “resistible” (Acts7:51), He can be grieved (Eph4:30), and He can be insulted (Heb10:29). The problem with OSAS followers, they read those verses and do not acknowledge that one who “resists” or “grieves” or “insults” the Spirit, cannot be still united WITH Him…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Exactly! Once man goes on his own there’s no: 'being led by the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone away from the Word of God (God’s Revelation)… and since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, there’s no disunity or dissention in His Teaching:

9 Your interests, however, are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made his home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to him.

(Romans 8:9–see also 2 Cor. 3:17 & 1 St. P 1:10-12)

That is why my approach is to take the actual verses they think promotes “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”, and hold up the context which absolutely does not

permit “Predestined Salvation”. In most cases the context promotes just the opposite of OSAS.

…and then try to get them to talk about all of the verses which plainly warn against “turning away from God and salvation”. They get reaaaaaalllly quiet…
…this is what is so difficult… it’s like ‘let’s agree to disagree…’

No! I’m not interested in “winning” or “agreeing (for the sake of human respect);” take what I offer (as I will take what you offer) and search it–then, as St. Paul instructed, keep what is Good!

It’s just that if all of the warnings against apostasy, are mere empty “effective-means-to-KEEP-us-saved”, how powerful is

God’s sovereignty?

As long as I live I will never understand why we even need to bother telling anyone about salvation at all! I mean, if God’s already made the decision (“Predestined Salvation”), it’s not like we can change the unpredestined from their sin and unbelief. And the “predestined”, why — they’re gonna be saved anyway, no matter what anyone does?

Let’s just go get a soda and watch that movie-marathon on TV and not worry about “go unto the WORLD preaching the Gospel”!
(Sigh.)
…the actually paint themselves to a corner over and over again… the saddest part? …next day, they do it all over again!

Have you ever talked with those who were

Calvinist, but rejected it? Calvinists commonly assert that they have been “taught by the Spirit”, or “matured”, or “studied” — the beginning of leaving the doctrine is really a humbling experience. Starting to think, “I am not a special favorite of God whom He holds strongly to His breast” — no, God does not play favorites (Rom2:11, Acts10:34-35, Col3:25) — Paul warns us not to be conceited but fear — for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israelites!), neither will He spare US, if we do not continue in faith! (Rom11:18-23!)

…I wonder why Paul uses words like “conceited”, and “arrogant”???
I suspect that the experience is the same for most converts (with the exception of Catholics); it is difficult to be trained/schooled in a discipline that is found faulty/lacking after years of certitude.

What is so damaging is that ego usually trumps Truth–ever witness an argument between strangers… when person “a” feels he/she is losing the argument, tempers flair and he/she gets louder and louder… it is as if by sheer force they can silence the opposition into submission–it’s about “winning at all cost!”

…yet, remember about the Ways of the Holy Spirit? …Meek, Humble, Loving…

I think that St. Paul is making a marked difference between the Ways of the Holy Spirit and the ways of man…

It is the same for “favoritism;” God’s does not suffer from such error/preferences:

38 The righteous man will live by faith, but if he draws back, my soul will take no pleasure in him.

(Hebrews 10:38)
(Not sure if this is one of your “proof” text, but here’s predestination shut down, yet again!)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

A great example of my intended message is Baptism. Surely GOD {ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED} cannot and would not condemn to eternal hell all of the worlds souls that HAD either no opportunity to be Baptized, or no understanding of that need through NOT their OWN negligence or fault. YET John 3:5 is precisely clear….Biblically speaking; “ALL” can and at tiles does mean “THE NORM.”

PJM, Jesus’ use of “hydro” is clear, verses 5 and six say the same thing — Jesus is comparing physical birth with spiritual birth. “Water-as-the-physical-element”, flesh. Why would Jesus sandwich a “waterbaptism” clause in the middle of explaining “physical versus spiritual births”? It also would make Jesus’ message, “Unless one is born-spiritually, and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter…”

That said, if it’s important for you to continue perceiving “waterbaptism”, you at least know another’s thoughts on it, and for you and me it is a minor disagreement that we can set aside for now.

As you know not everything in the bible is not literal. Also with the possible ??] exception of John having lived the longest of the Apostles; the NT bible was not written specifically for future generations. They were commonly aimed directly to the audience they were then instructing.

That’s right. And I’ve said something similar to Pre-Trib-Rapture folks, who insist “Philadelphia” (Rev3) applies to us. Maybe; but when it was written, John was thinking of a First Century church…
.

I have often shared that EVERYTHING in the bible is TRUE; but not everything in the bible is factual. … meaning the intended Lesson is true, even if the example given is not to be applied in every case. S …. ALVATION is highly conditional; and hence God must make his final judgement based upon WHAT HE HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR THAT SOUL TO KNOW AND ACCEPT, AND LIVE. …NOT on what that souls has freely and willingly chosen to know, live and accept.

That is true. And — every last person created is drawn (Greek is “helkuo-dragged-forcibly”) to Jesus; each then accepts Him, or refuses. Jn12:32.

As you know God HAS to be fair and just.

EXACTLY – and what would He be if He chooses most to perish (inescapably), and a few to be saved (irresistibly)?

So God then must make the final Judgement on what HE has made possible for each Soul to Know and accept. One cannot be found innocent with self- inflicted- ignorance; NOR can one be found guilty by involuntary ignorance.

Indigenous peoples who had never heard of Jesus, can still know Him and be saved. But what about those in places like Islamic countries, who also never heard the name “Jesus”? Acts4:12 is true (“no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”) — but they can still have Him as much as they understand. God is perfect, and perfectly just.

Acts.17: 26 to 31 “And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, for In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Does every soul there truly have a REAL [freewill] opportunity to come to know God in the Christian understanding? I suspect not.

What do you think of Rom1:19-20?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Logically and morally Calvin was wrong here. Based on BOTH the Divine Nature of Jesus [GOD] and the Human nature GIFTED to man; which I addressed earlier.

If I remember, you said something about “us being created in God’s image”. And that point — is completely accurate.

There are at least 2 problems with this position
1 The Bible is often freely interpreted when it is being rewritten [new versions] so we see objectively a huge multiplicity of one’s PERSONAL subjective views imposed after 500 years. As ANY and ALL churches can ONLY be defined by their own freely chosen [all though this authority is anti-biblical 2 Peter 1: 19-21, while the RCC after 2,000 YEARS still professes the SAME One True Faith.
2 is that TRUTH can be nothing other than singular per defined issue. This can not logically or morally be overlooked.

That’s the value of knowing sources, and reading commentaries; including from ECF’s. Not that any one person becomes “absolute authority”. I like a commentator named Robertson; he taught graduate level Greek for years. But I can point out some errors — he gets “ei-dunatos” right in Matt24:24, but imposes his own (wrong) interpretation that “it implies they cannot be deceived”. No, it means the same as it does in the other places, like Acts20:16 — "Paul hurried to be at the Pentecost, IF HE COULD."

The false will deceive even the elect, if they can. It’s a real danger; see 1Tim4:1, and 2Cor11:3!!!

CORRECT if amended to mean doing it GOD”S WAY: Period!

Agreed. You know the RT’s treatment of this — "All does not necessarily mean everyone, but often only some of all TYPES." But “kings-&-all-authority” only works with “everyone”; not every king or every authority is saved!

“God is love” — and “love cannot demand its own way”…

Another TRUTH ignored Yup, they cannot answer verses like 1Cor13:5. They say, “Oh God does not compel, but He changes their hearts so they WANT to turn to Him”. That’s not compulsion? Hence my term, “lobotomy” – which I confess is a bit derogatory, but how isn’t it an accurate description of “Monergism”?

BTW, that also does violence to verses like Isaiah45:22 and Malachi3:7!

I earlier explained the impossibility of a common understanding of the term PREDESTINATION. It denies both God and humanity with the RIGHT to choose for themselves, a conditional salvation

I’m enjoying our discussion. God willing it will have a positive effect on other Souls as well my friend.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Make no mistake, Patrick – you are a blessing to me also. I pray that I am a blessing to others, and hinder or turn away no one from our mutual cause and Savior.

:grouphug:
[/quote]

 

[PJM]

What do you think of Rom1:19-20?

PJM, Jesus’ use of “hydro” is clear, verses 5 and six say the same thing — Jesus is comparing physical birth with spiritual birth. “Water-as-the-physical-element”, flesh. Why would Jesus sandwich a “water baptism” clause in the middle of explaining “physical versus spiritual births”? It also would make Jesus’ message, “Unless one is born-spiritually, and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter…”

It is because water metaphorically represents LIFE; both physical and spiritual. And Baptism portends to have the ability to accomplish both. What Jesus does here is the SAME condition he applied with the mandate of circumcision: …. It is not simply the “Act”; it’s far more the humble and full OBEDIENCE that God desires, and this is its manifestation. Further Baptism leaves an indelible mark that indicates one NOW is a CHOSEN child of God, as an unnecessary reminder for God, but an essential reminder to humanity.

“And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, that it may be for a sign of the covenant between me and you.”
[Genesis 17:11]

That said, if it’s important for you to continue perceiving “waterbaptism”, you at least know another’s thoughts on it, and for you and me it is a minor disagreement that we can set aside for now.

Thank you

That’s right. And I’ve said something similar to Pre-Trib-Rapture folks, who insist “Philadelphia” (Rev3) applies to us. Maybe; but when it was written, John was thinking of a First Century church…

AMEN.
.

That is true. And — every last person created is drawn (Greek is “helkuo-dragged-forcibly”) to Jesus; each then accepts Him, or refuses. Jn12:32.

A GREAT AMEN!

EXACTLY – and what would He be if He chooses most to perish (inescapably), and a few to be saved (irresistibly)?

Not sure EXCEPT we KNOW he could NOT be GOD!

heard

of Jesus, can still know Him and be saved. But what about those in places like Islamic countries, who also never heard the name “Jesus”? Acts4:12 is true (“no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”) — but they can still have Him as much as they understand. God is perfect, and perfectly just./QUOTE

The indigenous peoples are a prime example of both how and why, I have repeatedly claimed that God WILL, because as GOD, He MUST, pass final judgment upon each Soul based on what He as GOD has made possible for one to know. Those to whom He for whatever mysterious reason has not made this knowledge available will be judged mostly on their acts of charity.

Continued Blessings my friend
Patrick

 

[PJM]

If I remember, you said something about “us being created in God’s image”. And that point — is completely accurate.

OK, but how does one then reconcile Gen 1: 26-19 with John 4:23-24? *

That’s the value of knowing sources, and reading commentaries; including from ECF’s. Not that any one person becomes “absolute authority”. I like a commentator named Robertson; he taught graduate level Greek for years. But I can point out some errors — he gets “ei-dunatos” right in Matt24:24, but imposes his own (wrong) interpretation that “it implies they cannot be deceived”. No, it means the same as it does in the other places, like Acts20:16 — "Paul hurried to be at the Pentecost, IF HE COULD."

Fully agree. As an Old timer, I prefer Haydock and Matthew Henry’s.

The false will deceive even the elect, if they can.

It’s a real danger; see 1Tim4:1, and 2Cor11:3!!!

I [me personally here] suspect that we have a different understanding of the term “the elect.” Because the bible is a Catholic book: The OT selected by Catholics; and the NT authored by Catholics, some 1,400 years prior to the reformation; I hold this to me directly to Catholics.

Agreed. You know the RT’s treatment of this — "All does not necessarily mean everyone, but often only some of all TYPES."

But “kings-&-all-authority” only works with “everyone”; not every king or every authority is saved!

One does have to wonder about the “extreme” positions of some denominations. But is was foreseen and foretold.

1.	Matt.7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves” …. [21] "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Yup, they cannot answer verses like 1Cor13:5. They say, "Oh God does not compel

, but He changes their hearts so they WANT to turn to Him". That’s not compulsion? Hence my term, “lobotomy” – which I confess is a bit derogatory, *but how isn’t it an accurate description of “Monergism”?BTW, that also does violence to verses like Isaiah45:22 and Malachi3:7!

Isa.45: 2] "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. {and also this one} …. 6 to 9“Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”

Mal.3:7 “From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts. But you say, `How shall we return?’

GRACE; the OFFER of the essential gift is the answer … AMEN!

Make no mistake, Patrick – you are a blessing to me also. I pray that I am a blessing to others, and hinder or turn away no one from our mutual cause and Savior.

:grouphug:

God works in mysterious ways.

Continued Blessings my friend

Patrick

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Exactly! Once man goes on his own there’s no: 'being led by the Holy Spirit." The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone away from the Word of God (God’s Revelation)… and since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, there’s no disunity or dissension in His Teaching:

But so many think they’re “being led by the Spirit”. The average RT is quite certain he’s “led by the Spirit” (many say “I used to believe as you, but then the Spirit led…”)
(Gr8 quotes!)

…this is what is so difficult… it’s like ‘let’s agree to disagree…’

No! I’m not interested in “winning” or “agreeing (for the sake of human respect);” take what I offer (as I will take what you offer) and search it–then, as St. Paul instructed, keep what is Good!

"My mind is made up, don’t bother me with the facts." Like the minister at a local Calvinist-Baptist church – flat kissed me off rather than accept Paul’s words of 1Cor2:12! In the book I’ve written, I cite Gamaliel:
“…if this is of men it will come to nothing. But if it is NOT of men, not only will you be unable to overturn it, but you may be found standing against God.”
:yup:

…they actually paint themselves to a corner over and over again… the saddest part? …next day, they do it all over again!

“My mind is made up…”

Also, “there are none so blind as those who will not see.”

Just be patient with them; they really do desire to follow Jesus, it’s just that they’ve been misled by errant teachers. AND – as we’ve discussed, “they have ego in the ring”, reputation and history. As I said in my book, “established doctrines die hard…”

I suspect that the experience is the same for most converts (with the exception of Catholics); it is difficult to be trained/schooled in a discipline that is found faulty/lacking after years of certitude.

What is so damaging is that ego usually trumps Truth–ever witness an argument between strangers… when person “a” feels he/she is losing the argument, tempers flair and he/she gets louder and louder… it is as if by sheer force they can silence the opposition into submission–it’s about “winning at all cost!”

That’s right; and you and I can be guilty of that too, if we’re not careful. In the past on message boards I have come across a bit strong; a couple times someone has asked, "Have you ever considered that you could be WRONG?"

(The response has always been — "Of course! SHOW me how I’m wrong, what does the verse(s) really intend?)

…yet, remember about the Ways of the Holy Spirit? …Meek, Humble, Loving…

Absolutely; and that should be the measure of our success in interacting with others. What success will we have (and service to Jesus), if we injure and anger those we are trying to reach? I once got some “positive reps” (on a board that allowed reps) from Atheists – I asked someone, “You really just called these Atheists ‘stupid’. How would you feel if they called you that? If we do not have respect for each other, how can we even have a conversation?”

I think that St. Paul is making a marked difference between the Ways of the Holy Spirit and the ways of man…

It is the same for “favoritism;” God’s does not suffer from such error/preferences:
(citation Hebrews 10:38)
(Not sure if this is one of your “proof” text, but here’s predestination shut down, yet again!)

VERY EXCELLENT, thanx brother!

That was not in my book! It is now – I have an appendix “101 Verses That Stand Against OSAS”. Not wanting to give up the “101”, I snuck it in with 1Jn2:26-28; we only shrink-in-shame because of unforgiven sin. Which would mean we have turned away from Jesus.

 

[Gadgeteer]

It is because water metaphorically represents LIFE; both physical and spiritual. And Baptism portends to have the ability to accomplish both. What Jesus does here is the SAME condition he applied with the mandate of circumcision: …. It is not simply the “Act”; it’s far more the humble and full OBEDIENCE that God desires, and this is its manifestation. Further Baptism leaves an indelible mark that indicates one NOW is a CHOSEN child of God, as an unnecessary reminder for God, but an essential reminder to humanity.

Well, I was focusing on the context of Jesus’ words.

“And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, that it may be for a sign of the covenant between me and you.”
[Genesis 17:11]

It’s interesting that you perceive “waterbaptism is part of salvation”, and you and I agree that “salvation can become forfeit” (one can turn away from Jesus and back into sin), but you do not perceive such a person as needing to be rebaptized.

Not arguin’, just noting.

That said, if it’s important for you to continue perceiving “waterbaptism”, you at least know another’s thoughts on it, and for you and me it is a minor disagreement that we can set aside for now.

Thank you

:hug1:

AMEN.

A GREAT AMEN!

EXACTLY – and what would He be if He chooses most to perish (inescapably), and a few to be saved (irresistibly)?

Not sure EXCEPT we KNOW he could NOT be GOD!

My turn to say “amen!”

He would be unjust, fraudulent judge, a hypocrite, and several other outrageous insults!

Indigenous peoples who had never heard

of Jesus, can still know Him and be saved. But what about those in places like Islamic countries, who also never heard the name “Jesus”? Acts4:12 is true (“no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”) — but they can still have Him as much as they understand. God is perfect, and perfectly just.

The indigenous peoples are a prime example of both how and why, I have repeatedly claimed that God WILL, because as GOD, He MUST, pass final judgment upon each Soul based on what He as GOD has made possible for one to know. Those to whom He for whatever mysterious reason has not made this knowledge available will be judged mostly on their acts of charity.

God is real; he (she?) who seeks Him, will find Him. He is just and honorable, and will hold each person to the level of his understanding.

Continued Blessings my friend
Patrick

And to you, brother.

 

[Gadgeteer]

OK, but how does one then reconcile Gen 1: 26-19 with John 4:23-24? **Gen1 “God created man in His own image”
John4 "“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God is Spirit, and “Spirit does not have flesh and bones” (Lk24:39)
Although “no one can see God’s face and live” (Ex33:20), He does not have a flesh and bones face. To me “created in His image” conveys we are in His intelligence, capable of love, “free moral agents”.

Fully agree. As an Old timer, I prefer Haydock and Matthew Henry’s.

, but He changes their hearts so they WANT to turn to Him". That’s not compulsion? Hence my term, “lobotomy” – which I confess is a bit derogatory, but how isn’t it an accurate description of “Monergism”?
That is certainly graphic and makes a point.It’s akin to “DOUBLE-SPEAK”, from the novel/movie “1984”. It is NOT “compulsion” although it’s imposed without their consent, they have free will although they can choose NOTHING ELSE but what God chooses.

…yyyy-eah…

Isa.45: 2] "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. {and also this one} …. 6 to 9“Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”

Mal.3:7 “From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts. But you say, `How shall we return?’

GRACE; the OFFER of the essential gift is the answer … AMEN!

It has to be that. Verse after verse affirms “grace is offered to every last person” — Rom11:32, 1Tim4:10, Jn3:16 “the WORLD”, see 1Jn2:2 “holos-kosmos-WHOLE-WORLD”. Entire planet.

God works in mysterious ways.

Continued Blessings my friend

Patrick

And to you!

[/QUOTE]

 

[jcrichton]

But so many think they’re “being led by the Spirit”. The average RT is quite certain he’s “led by the Spirit” (many say “I used to believe as you, but then the Spirit led…”)
(Gr8 quotes!)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

It is interesting how the “Holy Spirit Lead” so many towards so many paths that go against the Gospels. :crying::crying::crying:

"My mind is made up, don’t bother me with the facts

." Like the minister at a local Calvinist-Baptist church – flat kissed me off rather than accept Paul’s words of 1Cor2:12! In the book I’ve written, I cite Gamaliel:
“…if this is of men it will come to nothing. But if it is NOT of men, not only will you be unable to overturn it, but you may be found standing against God.”
:yup:

“My mind is made up…”

Also, “there are none so blind as those who will not see.”

Just be patient with them; they really do desire to follow Jesus, it’s just that they’ve been misled by errant teachers. AND – as we’ve discussed, “they have ego in the ring”, reputation and history. As I said in my book, “established doctrines die hard…”

That’s right; and you and I can be guilty of that too, if we’re not careful. In the past on message boards I have come across a bit strong; a couple times someone has asked, "Have you ever considered that you could be WRONG?"

(The response has always been — "Of course! SHOW me how I’m wrong, what does the verse(s) really intend?)

Absolutely; and that should be the measure of our success in interacting with others. What success will we have (and service to Jesus), if we injure and anger those we are trying to reach?
St. James warns against the “teacher” thing–those who claim to “know” or “lead” will be held to higher scrutiny because they can err both in shortchanging the Word and the Believers and overindulgence–thinking themselves greater than what they ought:

16 Not that I do boast of preaching the gospel, since it is a duty which has been laid on me; I should be punished if I did not preach it!

(1 Corinthians 9:16)
Still, I walk in the knowledge that I could lead others wrong… so I Pray that the Holy Spirit Guide me and set the Boundaries that I should follow… human nature being what it is… patience is a virtue that I have not yet been able to claim–fully.

I once got some “positive reps” (on a board that allowed reps) from Atheists – I asked someone, "You really just called these Atheists ‘stupid’. How would you feel if they called you

that? If we do not have respect for each other, how can we even have a conversation?"
…interestingly enough, I have had “self-proclaimed” atheists defend me and the Faith at various occasions… it is interesting how much knowledge some have about Christianity and the Catholic Church… I suspect that they are hidden Believers (like Nicodemus) who are truly searching for the Truth.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

Well, I was focusing on the context of Jesus’ words.

It’s interesting that you perceive “waterbaptism is part of salvation”, and you and I agree that “salvation can become forfeit” (one can turn away from Jesus and back into sin), but you do not perceive such a person as needing to be rebaptized.

EXACTLY AND PRECISELY CORRECT

AND WHY IS THAT?

Baptism has many essential and highly significant effects.

Jesus who is GOD is very clear about it absolute essential role in man’s salvation [so are we to argue that God does not have the RIGHT to make and command this reality?] … John 3:5 & Mt 28:18-19

Man is created by God in a state of Grace SIN [Original sin] that can only be removed by Sacramental Baptism; AGAIN God’s call

Then there ARE the very Nature of God and SIN to consider:

God in order to BE GOD, must in an absolute sense be both “fair” & “Just” as these ARE “good things” and as previously noted GOD can be briefly described as “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED”

ALL sins accrue in Divine Justice [by absolute & perfect fairness]

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” [this is to be taken literally].in order for any Soul to attain the Beatific Vision [hence the absolute reality and purpose of Purgatory]

…BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT; GOD WILL ONLY PERMIT “same” TO ENTER INTO HIS PRESENCE

SIN:

ALL SIN accrues a GOD IMPOSED penalty that theologians term: "The Temporal punishment due to sin"

**Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:

TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. The penalty that God in his justice inflicts either on earth or in Purgatory for sins, even though already forgiven as to guilt**.

Now before addressing your point about “re-Baptized” this SACRAMENT can be received only one time {meaning having its merits apply]… WHY

It is because the removal of ALL sin AND EVEN ALL of the Temporal Punishment due to them is a “one time” OFFER… [Not literally true as the Catholic SACRAMENT of the “Last Rites” [which as the NORM includes SACRAMENTAL Confession [OUR NEXT POINT] has the POWER to accomplish the same results for those in danger of physical death [1 Tim 2: 3-4 & James 5:14-15]… BUT unlike Sacramental Baptism, this Sacrament does NOT leave and invisible sigh

In an absolute sense a SECOND Baptism is made unnecessary by GOD who also instituted SACRAMENTAL Confession for the forgiveness of sins [READ in this sequence}

1 John 1:5-6
1 John 5: 16-17
JOHN 20:19-23 all of which are literal [READ Mt 10:1-3; John 17:18 and John 20:21]

AND through the POWER of the Key’s [Mt 16:18-19] the Church is granted authority to introduce INDULGENCES for the CONDITIONAL-merited remission of the Temporal Punishment that ALL sins [even those Confessed & Forgiven sins] accrue.

**Fr Hardon

INDULGENCE. “The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints” (Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).

As originally understood, an indulgence was a mitigation of the severe canonical penances imposed on the faithful for grave sins. The term “indulgence” remained, however, even after these extreme penalties were discontinued. Yet until the Second Vatican Council, the norm for determining the effectiveness of an indulgenced practice was its relationship to the ancient canonical penances, as seen in the numbers, so many years or so many days, attached to every official listing of partial indulgences.

All this was changed by Pope Paul VI. From now on the measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself.

Another innovation is that partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage, asking God to remit their sufferings if they are still in purgatory.

So because GOD [Jesus] Instituted OTHER Sacraments to SUPPLEMENT & compliment SACRAMENTAL Baptism; it is in an absolute sense not necessary to be received a second time.

The Other essential effects of Baptism ALSO come into play here; such as being made and MARKED indelibly as a Child of “FOR”]God** now open to be OFFERED Sacramental Grace.

Not arguin’, just noting.

:hug1:

My turn to say “amen!”

He would be unjust, fraudulent judge, a hypocrite, and several other outrageous insults!



God is real; he (she?) who seeks Him, will find Him. He is just and honorable, and will hold each person to the level of his understanding.

And to you, brother.

What I have shared is VERY profound and worthy of much more detail. If you’d like more info send me a PM request. But space here is limited so I’ll leave t up to you.

God BLESS you my friend,

Patrick.

 

[PJM]

Gen1 “God created man in His own image”

John4 "“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God is Spirit, and “Spirit does not have flesh and bones” (Lk24:39)

Although “no one can see God’s face and live” (Ex33:20), He does not have a flesh and bones face. To me “created in His image” conveys we are in His intelligence, capable of love, “free moral agents”.

Close:thumbsup:

In ALL of the CREATED Universe and its BILLIONS of things, ONLY One planet can be Objectively proven to be able to support life forms: Planet EARTH

On Planet Earth with its MILLIONS of “Living THINGS”; only One one; only humanity is rational; can choose to Love and OR to hate.

In order for man to be rational requires a Mind, Intellect & a FREEWILL; each of which like our GOD is a Spiritual & an IMMORTAL reality. And it is the “Other self” that fulfills and explains how we can and DO emulate our God…

Should one doubt this; we ask them to define for us their FREEWILL
What is its size, shape, color and weight?

It can’t be done, yet only a fool would deny that all" MEN" have one

“Elect”, simply means “saved”. Under Catholicism (since many have stated “we are not saved now” — in spite of 1Jn5:11-13), “those who belong to Jesus through faith”.

Actually that is the common Protestant understanding. But it actually is far more accurate to understand it as marked or called. You may recall that earlier in the previous POST I mentioned that Sacramental Baptism leaves an “indelible” Mark on the Soul, identifying that SOULS as being CALLED by name for God [CONDITIONALLY]….it’s the conditionally part that is commonly missed by OTHER Christians outside of the RCC.

[QUOTED]
See Matt22:2-14, “many are called” (in context everyone in view), “but few are chosen/elect” (only those who decide to come and accept the King’s clean clothes), are chosen/elect/saved.

My friend again you have expressed well the common Protestant understanding with is both an assumption and a presumption, not based on complete fact.

That terminology at the minimum hints at Predestination; which both for GOD [who has to be PERFECT] and cannot GIFT humanity with the exclusive ability to FREELY choose for THEMSELVES; and “MAN” who MUST be given the opportunity to choose for themselves Eternal hell or eternal heaven. ….Hence predestination in our common understanding is NOT the meaning of that TERM in the bible. {it only means God knows our choice beforehand.]

It’s all about the motive behind all three OSAS views — it is the same thing that satan promised Eve, “Don’t worry you won’t really die”. Many doctrines begin with an overreaching premise and “exert whatever means necessary to achieve that premise”.

EXTREMELY well put! … And in doing so are practicing TRUTHINESS.

;QUOTE]recognizing that "we do not do things to earn anything with God, but rather what we do is the consequence of where we are in Him and how He is in us. 2Cor13:5!

GOTTA be careful here

While it is TRUE that no one can literally their way into heaven; GOD nevertheless has expectations of US working for and with Him;

Jas.2: [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

“ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

*Jn.14: 21-23 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him

Heb. 5: 9 “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”

James 2: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. “

It’s akin to “DOUBLE-SPEAK”, from the novel/movie “1984”. It is NOT “compulsion” although it’s imposed without their consent, they have free will although they can choose NOTHING ELSE but what God chooses.

…yyyy-eah…

AMEN: AMEN!!!

It has to be that. Verse after verse affirms “grace is offered to every last person” — Rom11:32, 1Tim4:10, Jn3:16 “the WORLD”, see 1Jn2:2 “holos-kosmos-WHOLE-WORLD”. Entire planet.

And to you!

The CRITICAL word being “OFFERED”; an offer which can be and is commonly refused
.
God Bless MY FRIEND!
Patrick

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

:tiphat:

It is interesting how the “Holy Spirit Lead” so many towards so many paths that go against the Gospels.

I read somewhere “do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits…” If someone comes bringing something that opposes something an Apostle said, which are we to believe? :doh2:

St. James warns against the “teacher” thing–those who claim to “know” or “lead” will be held to higher scrutiny because they can err both in shortchanging the Word and the Believers and overindulgence–thinking themselves greater than what they ought:

And yet, if we teach correctly, it is a fulfillment honor and privilege.

Still, I walk in the knowledge that I could lead others wrong… so I Pray that the Holy Spirit Guide me and set the Boundaries that I should follow… human nature being what it is… patience is a virtue that I have not yet been able to claim–fully.

A man of considerable honor; acceding to verses like Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11…

…interestingly enough, I have had “self-proclaimed” atheists defend me and the Faith at various occasions… it is interesting how much knowledge some have about Christianity and the Catholic Church… I suspect that they are hidden Believers (like Nicodemus) who are truly searching for the Truth.

It is a real tragedy that many non-Christians (like Atheists and Pagans), are much nicer than many so-called Christians! And yes they’re really seeking. Which is why you can destroy them with five questions:

1. “Do you know all there is to know in the Universe, EVERYTHING?”
2. “Do you know HALF of all there is to know in the Universe?”
3. "Could God exist in the half you do not KNOW?"

They have to answer #1, “no”. And #2 also “no”. Therefore #3 must be “YES” — of course God could be over there, they don’t know!

1. “So you’re not an Atheist any more, you are Agnostic; a doubter – right?”

They have to agree.

1. "Are you an honest doubter, or a dishonest one?"

They ask — “What do you mean?”
"If you’re honest, you don’t know if there’s a God, and you’d like to know. If you’re dishonest, you don’t know – and you don’t want to know!

…which are you???"

Almost always they’ll be saying — “…uhmmm…”

 

[Gadgeteer]

What I have shared is VERY profound and worthy of much more detail. If you’d like more info send me a PM request. But space here is limited so I’ll leave t up to you.

PJM, you went to considerable effort in replying to me – thank you! I am very honored by you!!!

EXACTLY AND PRECISELY CORRECT

AND WHY IS THAT?

Baptism has many essential and highly significant effects.

Jesus who is GOD…

You really BELIEVE Jesus is God???
(…teasing, He’s very much “God-became-man”!)

is very clear about it absolute essential role in man’s salvation [so are we to argue that God does not have the RIGHT to make and command this reality?] … John 3:5 & Mt 28:18-19

Not to argue – I don’t perceive “waterbaptism” in Jn3:5; but repeating verse six…

Man is created by God in a state of Grace SIN [Original sin] that can only be removed by Sacramental Baptism; AGAIN God’s call

Again not to argue – in 1Cor6:11:

"Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."Does the water do it? Or is it Jesus’ name and the Spirit?

(Not tryin’ to change you, hope you value seeing through my eyes as I very much value seeing through yours…)

Then there ARE the very Nature of God and SIN to consider:

God in order to BE GOD, must in an absolute sense be both “fair” & “Just” as these ARE “good things” and as previously noted GOD can be briefly described as “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED”

ALL sins accrue in Divine Justice [by absolute & perfect fairness]

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” [this is to be taken literally].in order for any Soul to attain the Beatific Vision [hence the absolute reality and purpose of Purgatory]

…BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT; GOD WILL ONLY PERMIT “same” TO ENTER INTO HIS PRESENCE

Our “perfection” is only His, in and through us. Isaiah61:10!

SIN:

ALL SIN accrues a GOD IMPOSED penalty that theologians term: "The Temporal punishment due to sin"

**Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:

TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. The penalty that God in his justice inflicts either on earth or in Purgatory for sins, even though already forgiven as to guilt**.

Can you please help me to understand how “already-forgiven” still imposes a penalty?

Now before addressing your point about “re-Baptized” this SACRAMENT can be received only one time {meaning having its merits apply]… WHY

It is because the removal of ALL sin AND EVEN ALL of the Temporal Punishment due to them is a “one time” OFFER… [Not literally true as the Catholic SACRAMENT of the “Last Rites” [which as the NORM includes SACRAMENTAL Confession [OUR NEXT POINT] has the POWER to accomplish the same results for those in danger of physical death [1 Tim 2: 3-4 & James 5:14-15]… BUT unlike Sacramental Baptism, this Sacrament does NOT leave and invisible sigh

Question — if “waterbaptism” is a one-time-event (even though we have to abide in Jesus and not turn back to sin), why can’t “salvation” also be a one-time event, which does not deny that we have to continue/abide IN it?

In an absolute sense a SECOND Baptism is made unnecessary by GOD who also instituted SACRAMENTAL

I agree; I don’t see a “second baptism event” taught in Scripture. Some say “you must also be baptized in the Spirit” – but to me the Apostles’ wording simply conveys “RECEIVING the Spirit”. Which we do at salvation, in my understanding often at waterbaptism.

Confession for the forgiveness of sins [READ in this sequence}

1 John 1:5-6
1 John 5: 16-17
JOHN 20:19-23 all of which are literal [READ Mt 10:1-3; John 17:18 and John 20:21]

AND through the POWER of the Key’s [Mt 16:18-19] the Church is granted authority to introduce INDULGENCES for the CONDITIONAL-merited remission of the Temporal Punishment that ALL sins [even those Confessed & Forgiven sins] accrue.

I think you and I agree we still have to repent.

 

[Gadgeteer]

**Fr Hardon

INDULGENCE. “The remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned, which the follower of Christ with the proper dispositions and under certain determined conditions acquires through the intervention of the Church, which, as minister of the redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the satisfaction won by Christ and the saints” (Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences).

As originally understood, an indulgence was a mitigation of the severe canonical penances imposed on the faithful for grave sins. The term “indulgence” remained, however, even after these extreme penalties were discontinued. Yet until the Second Vatican Council, the norm for determining the effectiveness of an indulgenced practice was its relationship to the ancient canonical penances, as seen in the numbers, so many years or so many days, attached to every official listing of partial indulgences.

All this was changed by Pope Paul VI. From now on the measure of how efficacious an indulgenced work is depends on two things: the supernatural charity with which the indulgenced task is done, and the perfection of the task itself.

Another innovation is that partial and plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of suffrage, asking God to remit their sufferings if they are still in purgatory.

So because GOD [Jesus] Instituted OTHER Sacraments to SUPPLEMENT & compliment SACRAMENTAL Baptism; it is in an absolute sense not necessary to be received a second time.**

Perhaps I’m a little dense; if it’s the water that actually forgives sins, and if we can turn back to sin (and away from forgiveness), why wouldn’t water be required again upon returning?

The Other essential effects of Baptism ALSO come into play here; such as being made and MARKED indelibly as a Child of “FOR”] God now open to be OFFERED Sacramental Grace.

Our agreement is that we are in Christ by grace (God’s), through faith (ours); not by works we do, but by His sufficient and complete work on the Cross; that we must abide IN Jesus, being consciously diligent to exploit His power against sin and deception, that salvation is by belief and by “if we continue”.

You and I have been waterbaptized; although mine was not in a Catholic church, does anyone here think God will not accept it? My heart was the same as any Catholic at baptism.

God BLESS you my friend,

Patrick.

To be your friend is a great pleasure; more, you and I are brothers, and will be so forever. We don’t have to agree on everything; but we tell a lost and dying world about Jesus and invite them to the PARTY – Scripture calls eternity “a wedding feast”. Those things were noisy and fun; the “social event” of the time. We invite as many as we can to join us; if they come, then we get the pleasure of their company forever.

Jesus said, “These things have I told you that My joy may be in you, and your joy may be complete.” Can we really have joy outside of Him?

No.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

all that is needed to obtain forgiveness from God is a sincere cry for mercy from a place in which you are truly willing to change your life in order to live with Him.

yes, yes, “perfect contrition” is required for believers if they fall away after conversion. this is true. but the definition above should suffice in most situations.

 

[Gadgeteer]

In ALL of the CREATED Universe and its BILLIONS of things, ONLY One planet can be Objectively proven to be able to support life forms: Planet EARTH

That’s right – in all of the planets I’ve visited, I have never found any life! But seriously — so many things have to come together for life as we know it, foremost a radiation shield. If we colonize any other planet in our system (Mars is least hostile), living chambers would have to be underground; because radiation breaks chemical bonds sterilizing things away from living. Even astronauts will not have long lives because of increased cancer. Really infuriates me when (pseudo!) scientists talk about “life on other planets”. As if.

On Planet Earth with its MILLIONS of “Living THINGS”; only One one; only humanity is rational; can choose to Love and OR to hate.

I dunno, my little kitty sure understood “love”.

In order for man to be rational requires a Mind, Intellect & a FREEWILL; each of which like our GOD is a Spiritual & an IMMORTAL reality. And it is the “Other self” that fulfills and explains how we can and DO emulate our God…

Should one doubt this; we ask them to define for us their FREEWILL
What is its size, shape, color and weight?

How can “Compatibilism”, accommodate “free will”?

It can’t be done, yet only a fool would deny that all" MEN" have one

Actually that is the common Protestant understanding. But it actually is far more accurate to understand it as marked or called.

Question – who are “the elect”, in Matt24:24?

You may recall that earlier in the previous POST I mentioned that Sacramental Baptism leaves an “indelible” Mark on the Soul, identifying that SOULS as being CALLED by name for God [CONDITIONALLY]….it’s the conditionally part that is commonly missed by OTHER Christians outside of the RCC.

See Matt22:2-14, “many are called” (in context everyone in view

), “but few are chosen/elect” (only those who decide to come and accept the King’s clean clothes), are chosen/elect/saved.

My friend again you have expressed well the common Protestant understanding with is both an assumption and a presumption, not based on complete fact.

How do you perceive Matt22:2-14? Who in view, was not invited (called) to the party? Of those who did not come (or did not put on the king’s clothing), which made their own choice?

That terminology at the minimum hints at Predestination; which both for GOD [who has to be PERFECT] and cannot GIFT humanity with the exclusive ability to FREELY choose for THEMSELVES; and “MAN” who MUST be given the opportunity to choose for themselves Eternal hell or eternal heaven. ….Hence predestination in our common understanding is NOT the meaning of that TERM in the bible. {it only means God knows our choice beforehand.]

Agreed. I perceive Jesus was predestined (1Pet1:20-21, “foreknown-from-the-foundation”), our means of salvation is foreknown, but each person consciously chooses; that is the only way anyone could be judged!

EXTREMELY well put! … And in doing so are practicing TRUTHINESS.

recognizing that "we do not do things to earn anything with God,

but rather what we do is the consequence of where we are in Him and how He is in us. 2Cor13:5!

GOTTA be careful here

While it is TRUE that no one can literally their way into heaven; GOD nevertheless has expectations of US working for and with Him;

That’s correct. The answer has to combine James2 (“justified by works and not by faith alone”), and Rom4 (“if Abraham was justified by works, then he could brag”) — and Rom11:6 (“if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”).

Jas.2: [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work…”

Rev.2: 23 “… I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “…conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

“ Matt.19: 17 “…If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:36 “… he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

*Jn.14: 21-23 …If a man loves me, he will keep my word…

Heb. 5: 9 “…salvation to all who obey him,”

James 2: 14 …faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. “

Yes. Still – “not-by-works” (Eph2:8, Rom11:6) must fit. For me, I understand passages like James (which mirrors Rom4:3 & Gen15:6 Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness!) — James explains in 2:22 that works perfected faith. So yes “we are not saved by works”, and also “yes justification is by works, but only indirectly as works perfect our faith and perfected-faith receives God’s justification”.

What do you think of this understanding?

The CRITICAL word being “OFFERED”; an offer which can be and is commonly refused

And not just refused once, but at any time. I’m astonished at how many people read 1Cor10:1-13 “don’t-be-evil”, and “take care lest you FALL”, and refuse to believe sin can actually make us fall! Duh! uch:
.

God Bless MY FRIEND!
Patrick

And you, friend!

 

[Gadgeteer]

all that is needed to obtain forgiveness from God is a sincere cry for mercy from a place in which you are truly willing to change your life in order to live with Him.

yes, yes, “perfect contrition” is required for believers if they fall away after conversion. this is true. but the definition above should suffice in most situations.

Very well said! Excellent post!

Welcome here!

 

[jcrichton]

:tiphat:

I read somewhere “do not believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits…” If someone comes bringing something that opposes something an Apostle said, which are we to believe? :doh2:

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Here’s the passage you’re thinking about:

1 It is not every spirit, my dear people, that you can trust; test them, to see if they come from God, there are many false prophets, now, in the world. 2 You can tell the spirits that come from God by this: every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

(1 St. John 4:1–I’ve included v2 because it defines the Incarnation as a portion of our Salvation)

And yet, if we teach correctly,

it is a fulfillment honor and privilege.

A man of considerable honor; acceding to verses like Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11…
…these, as many other Scriptural passages, tend to be dismisses or equivocated with the past and basically rendered inert.

Yet, while it is true that we do not find many offering sacrifices to idols in the terms that the Apostles and the early Church encountered, if we simply open our Spiritual eyes we will find that idol worship in quite lucrative and prevalent; we don’t need to go far… sometimes we find it right in our own homes, apartment buildings, work place, schools, in our public squares, and even our religious meetings (local parish, places of worship, temples…); we may not see animal, wine, or grain sacrifices… but we find worse sacrifices: innocence, Truth, religiosity, charity, mercy, justice, and, yes, even the desecration of God’s temples.

It is a real tragedy that many non-Christians (like Atheists and Pagans), are much nicer than many so-called Christians! And yes they’re really seeking. Which is why you can destroy

them with five questions:

1. “Do you know all there is to know in the Universe, EVERYTHING?”
2. “Do you know HALF of all there is to know in the Universe?”
3. "Could God exist in the half you do not KNOW?"

They have to answer #1, “no”. And #2 also “no”. Therefore #3 must be “YES” — of course God could be over there, they don’t know!

1. “So you’re not an Atheist any more, you are Agnostic; a doubter – right?”

They have to agree.

1. "Are you an honest doubter, or a dishonest one?"

They ask — “What do you mean?”
"If you’re honest, you don’t know if there’s a God, and you’d like to know. If you’re dishonest, you don’t know – and you don’t want to know!

…which are you???"

Almost always they’ll be saying — “…uhmmm…”
It is the reason why the Catholic Church Teaches that there will be some who while not part of the Body might end up in Heaven while some who profess to being part of the Body may not.

Jesus also offered two very specific Teachings on this (St. Matthew 7:21-23; 25:31-46); and that very pronounced warning:

1 ‘Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the amount you measure out is the amount you will be given.

(St. Matthew 7:1-2)
I like that set up… though, I personally would not use it (I’m quite non-confrontational and it seems that I intimidate people right from the ‘get go’); it forces a person to reason beyond their preconceptions… though I was once taught that I did not believe in “Catholicism” but in “Catholism”–yeah, I had it wrong all along!

Unfortunately, there will be those who would reject the Truth regardless of how much reason, charity, and clarity is offered.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That’s right – in all of the planets I’ve visited, I have never found any life! But seriously — so many things have to come together for life as we know it, foremost a radiation shield. If we colonize any other planet in our system (Mars is least hostile), living chambers would have to be underground; because radiation breaks chemical bonds sterilizing things away from living. Even astronauts will not have long lives because of increased cancer. Really infuriates me when (pseudo!) scientists talk about “life on other planets”. As if.

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…wait… what?.. you don’t believe in life on other planets… and what species is the “pseudo?”

Brother, I have some breaking news:

Mormon theology has man populating the Universe… how can there not be life on other planets?

…you must get with the program!

…the discovery or scientific network has just put together a new ancient aliens epic (don’t forget sci fi flicks–you know what they say,’ hollowood has an in to the truth…’ cause it’s out there!) where they demonstrate how almost every culture in the world has identified and documented alien interaction with humans/the planet.

…and don’t forget chupa cabra, that runaway pet that is sucking the blood out of domesticated animals… all over the planet!

…so the next time you feel your house/apartment sway a little, don’t think of the earth’s gravitational spin getting a hiccup… look out your window, to the North (they usually show up from the North), you might just be getting a visit from et!

(I apologize for this tangent… but I couldn’t get it out of my mind… once I hit the “pseudo” thing!)

Maran atha!

Angel