Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Here’s the passage you’re thinking about:

Yup, that was it! :yup:

…these, as many other Scriptural passages, tend to be dismissed or equivocated with the past and basically rendered inert.

Sounds like when I said people read Scripture and stamp it, “NOT REALLY”…

Yet, while it is true that we do not find many offering sacrifices to idols in the terms that the Apostles and the early Church encountered, if we simply open our Spiritual eyes we will find that idol worship is quite lucrative and prevalent; we don’t need to go far… sometimes we find it right in our own homes, apartment buildings, work place, schools, in our public squares, and even our religious meetings (local parish, places of worship, temples…); we may not see animal, wine, or grain sacrifices… but we find worse sacrifices: innocence, Truth, religiosity, charity, mercy, justice, and, yes, even the desecration of God’s temples.

What is an “idol”? It is anything, or anyONE, that takes a higher place in our esteem than God…

It is the reason why the Catholic Church Teaches that there will be some who while not part of the Body might end up in Heaven while some who profess to being part of the Body may not.

That’s true in any assembly; of those who claim they are “saved”, the real ones will have good fruit. As Jesus said in Matt7:16-18, good trees cannot produce bad fruit (works!), bad trees cannot produce good fruit. Qualified by verses like Luke6:33 “even sinners do good” (to those who do good to them)…

I’m really sorry I did not credit the above “five questions” — from TV preacher Adrian Rogers…

Jesus also offered two very specific Teachings on this (St. Matthew 7:21-23; 25:31-46); and that very pronounced warning:
1 ‘Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2 because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the amount you measure out is the amount you will be given. (St. Matthew 7:1-2)
I like that set up… though, I personally would not use it (I’m quite non-confrontational and it seems that I intimidate people right from the ‘get go’); it forces a person to reason beyond their preconceptions… though I was once taught that I did not believe in “Catholicism” but in “Catholism”–yeah, I had it wrong all along!

Ironically, passages like that are mis-used by evil, to muzzle Christianity.

“DO NOT JUDGE!”

We are not commanded to “not-judge” – but rather TO judge, Jn7:24, 1Cor2:15, etcetera. Judging is the power of righteousness; we cannot separate “right” from “wrong” if we cannot judge. What Jesus advanced in Matt7 was “do not be a hypocrite”. While it is true only GOD has the right to judge, we are to operate as vessels for His judgment, always focused on convicting and turning to God and righteousness, never to condemn or destroy.

Unfortunately, there will be those who would reject the Truth regardless of how much reason, charity, and clarity is offered.

That is their choice; inasmuch as God is love, and love cannot demand its own way (so all are commanded to love God back, but He decides nothing of who will), we also operate in love, and therefore we are bearers of HIS invitation and cannot force anyone to come.

But we do not condemn; by love (even those who seek to hurt and destroy us!), hearts are won to Jesus, and by nothing else. Yes some come seeking an “escape to Hell”, or “crowns/rewards/mansions”, but they who discover His presence fall in love with Him, and only those who truly love Him will spend eternity with Him.

Our most effective witnessing tool by far is to love people and provide for their needs, telling them how much more JESUS loves them. Every convert, especially from darknesses like Islam*, are won by His real love…

• Islam is a religion of fear; fear of sin, fear of death, fear of perishing. It is an astonishing revelation to discover GOD LOVES US, unconditionally and WHILE we are sinners, and He provides our cleansing and righteousness. Jesus is LOVE; no greater love has anyone than to lay down his life for his friends. He died, while we were sinners and not seeking, an act of pure unselfish benevolence.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…wait… what?.. you don’t believe in life on other planets…

Nope. “Other-worlders” sneaking into dark bedrooms and abducting people? People – who have a high involvement in occultism. A book written by an E.T. is fully 1/3 denying the deity of Jesus. Striking parallels to spiritism and demonology; nope, they’re not otherworlders, they’re bad angels.

and what species is the “pseudo?”

Those so addicted to sin they deny the evidence and cling to Evolution and Humanism, hating God because they love darkness.

(Too bad I don’t feel strongly about this…)

Brother, I have some breaking news:

Mormon theology has man populating the Universe… how can there not be life on other planets?

You mean, OTHER than Kolob? Joseph Smith translated golden tablets that no one ever saw; except the three, and the eight (and their credibility is in shreds!). Using two “seer stones” (Urim and Thummim), which may have been clear glass or may have been golden spectacles. But “glass-looking” is occultic! I wonder who Moroni actually served? (No I don’t, I know!)

…you must get with the program!

I’m reaching for the remote to change to a different program…

…the discovery or scientific network has just put together a new ancient aliens epic (don’t forget sci fi flicks–you know what they say,’ hollowood has an in to the truth…’ cause it’s out there!) where they demonstrate how almost every culture in the world has identified and documented alien interaction with humans/the planet.

Yeah. Bad angels. OTOH, there are speculations about things like “nephilim”, possibly spawning Greek mythology…

…and don’t forget chupa cabra, that runaway pet that is sucking the blood out of domesticated animals… all over the planet!

I hit one of those in my 4x4! Threw him on the barby, he was delicious! (Nasty aroma though as he was cookin’…)

…so the next time you feel your house/apartment sway a little, don’t think of the earth’s gravitational spin getting a hiccup… look out your window, to the North (they usually show up from the North), you might just be getting a visit from et!

Wait — GRAVITY WAVES? Is there such a thang?

(I apologize for this tangent… but I couldn’t get it out of my mind… once I hit the “pseudo” thing!)

S’allright. “Pseudo scientists” feature prominently in the forward of my book. Ask them “how it began” – they have no idea, they just believe!

And a “belief”, is also called a RELIGION. Every Evolutionist is a Humanist, and the Humanist Manifesto of 1933 precept #1 states “This religious Humanism”… They admit it, then proselytize in every school and college in flaming hypocrisy and violation of both religion clauses of the American Constitution! It takes more faith to NOT believe in God, than to believe (and realize the Bible fits the facts perfectly). Magnitudes more faith, to infinity and beyond!

 

[PJM]

PJM, you went to considerable effort in replying to me – thank you! I am very honored by you!!!

Ahhhhh, shucks SINCERE Thanks

You really BELIEVE Jesus is God???

(…teasing, He’s very much “God-became-man”!)

Not to argue – I don’t perceive “waterbaptism” in Jn3:5; but repeating verse six.

John 3:5-6 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. & that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”

Does the water do it? Or is it Jesus’ name and the Spirit?[/QUOTR]

BOTH: the water a physical sign DEMANDED BY CHRIST, & and the applied merits through the Holy Spirit [GOD]

Haydock’s Commentary V. 6
.Ver. 5. quote Unless a man be born again of water, and the Holy Ghost. Though the word Holy be now wanting in all Greek copies, it is certainly the sense. The ancient Fathers, and particularly St. Augustine in divers places, from these words, prove the necessity of giving baptism to infants: and by Christ’s adding water, is excluded a metaphorical baptism. See also Acts viii. 36. and x. 47. and Titus iii. 5. (Witham) — Except a man be born again. That is, unless you are born again by a spiritual regeneration in God, all the knowledge which you learn from me, will not be spiritual but carnal. But I say to you, that neither you nor any other person, unless you be born again in God, can understand or conceive the glory which is in me. (St. Chrysostom) end quotes

Matthew Henry same
“ Note, It is folly to think of evading the obligation of evangelical precepts, by pleading that they are unintelligible, Rom. 3:3, Rom. 3:4 .(b. ) To expound and clear what he had said concerning regeneration; for the explication of which he further shows,[a. ] The author of this blessed change, and who it is that works it. To be born again is to be born of the Spirit, v. 5-8. The change is not wrought by any wisdom or power of our own, but by the power and influence of the blessed Spirit of grace. It is the sanctification of the Spirit (1 Pt. 1:2 ) and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Tit. 3:5 . The word he works by is his inspiration, and the heart to be wrought on he has access to.** The nature of this change, and what that is which is wrought; it is spirit, v. 6. Those that are regenerated are made spiritual, and refined from the dross and dregs of sensuality. The dictates and interests of the rational and immortal soul have retrieved the dominion they ought to have over the flesh. The Pharisees placed their religion in external purity and external performances; and it would be a mighty change indeed with them, no less than a new birth, to become spiritual”

ME HERE:
Certainly Sacramental Baptism is a “spiritual act”; HOWEVER in order for that ACT to manifest itself in an absolute sense [as the NORM], it has to be done with water in the name of the Triune Godhead [John 3:5-6 & Mt 28:18] Jesus by His own Baptism makes clear the metaphysical application of WATER is essential to the ACTS merits.

Again not to argue – in 1Cor6:11:“Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Does the water do it? Or is it Jesus’ name and the Spirit?

(Not tryin’ to change you, hope you value seeing through my eyes as I very much value seeing through yours…)

I Do see your point; however you seem to hold that water in Sacramental Baptism is not essential; where in FACT, according to Jesus Himself, it absolutely is.

Can you please help me to understand how “already-forgiven” still imposes a penalty?

Sure, but it will take SPACE to do so:

1. Is the undeniable fact that GOD remains in charge, even when we are unaware of it; & even if we wish He were Not.
2. Temporal Punishment is both directly and exclusively GOD imposed and monitored. Meaning ONLY God is actually aware of the debt amount, what payments, and to what degree such repayment will be accorded to this debts reduction ….

TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT. The penalty that God in his justice inflicts either on earth or in Purgatory for sins, even though already forgiven as to guilt. [Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary]

1. This is critical because only Souls that are “perfect” when the body ceases; or that can be perfected through Purgatory; assuming that said Soul had no unremitted; unforgiven; unconfessed Mortal sins [1 Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23]

Matt.5:48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
THIS REALITY IS AUGMENTED BY: Gen 17:1; 1 Kings 8:61; Mt 19:21; LK 6:40; & James 1:4

The foundational premise is that because God is PERFECT, that He will not permit any Soul not also perfect into His Presence: The “Beatific Vision.”

REPLY CONTINUED ON NEXT POST**

 

[PJM]

Continued from previous POST

1. The next issue is the very nature if sin itself: “All sin is an affront”, a direct attack on the very sovereignty of GOD. It is this understanding that set’s the foundation for what theologians term “The Temporal Punishment due to all sins”, including sins confessed, remitted and forgiven. …. Keep in mind that it is GOD who directly imposes this punishment, and it is God ALONE who “keeps the records” of payments for them.

Divine Justice DEMANDS some sort of retribution for all sin. Hence it is GOD alone who can and does directly impose this punishment and determine the type and amount of repayment that he GOD demands as satisfaction of this debt. …. Divine Justice ALSO demands that God make it POSSIBLE for man to repay this debt while still on earth. …. This repayment is again termed by theologians as “Indulgences”, which take two forms: [1] partial [2] complete up to that moment, termed “plenary” indulgences. BOTH are highly conditional; and for their merits to actually apply in this debt reductions, the conditions must be precisely & fully met. …… As only GOD can know to what degree He accepts said payments; only GOD knows if and when the entire debt has been retired. ….The Church has the Power to do this as evidenced by these teachings: Mt 10:1-2; Mt 16:15-19; John 17:18; John 20:21; Mt 28:18-19 … It is Divine Justice and the full nature of our sins that demands God do this.

Because God does always remain in charge; God: “All good things perfected”], literally in Divine Justice, MUST impose a penalty for sin which DOES NOT PROHIBIT ONE FROM THE BEATIFIC VISION; BUT CAN DELAY IT UNTIL SUCH IMPOSED DEBT IS FULLY REPAID TO GOD’S SATISFACTION.

For greater detail please take the time to check out these sites:

**[1] catholic-forum.com/members/catholictracts/tract117.html

[2] ewtn.com/library/answers/primindu.htm**

5.  It is because very often those outside of the RCC fail to grasp the ENTIRE meaning of God’s vert Nature, & the full understanding of sin in relation to God’s necessary Divine Justice, that has lead to much debate about Catholic-teaching on WORKS.

First allow me to share that categorially, the RCC neither believes nor teaches that anyone can through WORKS ALONE, attain heaven.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –“

Rom.5:2 “Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God”

WE DO GET IT

But that said, we also GET the fact that good-works do have a role to play especially as it relates to the repayment of our Temporal Punishment

Jas.2: 24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

2John.1: 5 “And now I beg you, lady, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another”

WHY?

Because good-works are the evidence of our Faith, our Hope and the manifestation of our Love. ….They are in this sense NOT optional. Along with Indulgences our WORKS of Mercy and Charity; which are the most perfect emulation of Jesus, act as repayment of part; and possibly, full repayment of the debt of Temporal Punishment.

PJM, you went to considerable effort in replying to me – thank you! I am very honored by you!!!

Can you please help me to understand how “already-forgiven” still imposes a penalty?

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

 

[PJM]

CONTINUED FRO PREVIOUS POST REPLY

Question — if “waterbaptism” is a one-time-event (even though we have to abide in Jesus and not turn back to sin), why can’t “salvation” also be a one-time event, which does not deny that we have to continue/abide IN it?

I’m not SURE if I fully & correctly understand your question, but I’ll reply as best I can.’’
In a SENSE Sacramental Baptism is “packaged Christianity”; by which I mean it is far broader and more encompassing than [dare I say “only”], only the forgiveness of all sins and their complete forgiveness & repayment.
Through Catholic Baptism: …Please check these sites out
[1] vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
[2] catholicity.com/catechism/the_graces_of_baptism.html
[3] beginningcatholic.com/baptism
It is precisely because Sacramental Baptism does a lot more than the forgiveness of all sin and sins consequences UP to the point of being Baptized; BUT DEMANDING more for any and all future [post Baptism] failings that God’s sense of Divine Justice DEMANDS further actions and freewill choices on our part. …. This is the reason God [Jesus] Instituted 7 Catholic Sacraments, each of which has a role in one’s salvation efforts.

SACRAMENT. A sensible sign, instituted by Jesus Christ, by which invisible grace and inward sanctification are communicated to the soul. The essential elements of a sacrament of the New Law are institution by Christ the God-man during his visible stay on earth, and a sensibly perceptible rite that actually confers the supernatural grace it symbolizes. In a broad sense every external sign of internal divine blessing is a sacrament. And in this sense there were already sacraments in the Old Law, such as the practice of circumcision. But, as the Council of Trent defined, these ancient rites differed essentially from the sacraments of the New Law, they did not really contain the grace they signified, nor was the fullness of grace yet available through visible channels merited and established by the Savior. (Etym. Latin sacramentum, oath, solemn obligation; from sacrare, to set apart as sacred, consecrate.) [Fr. Hardon’s Dictionay]

Hence in a real sense. Sacramental Baptism is the beginning; certainly not the end of all Christian life that extends beyond the sin-removing effects of Baptism ….It is because of the other and ongoing demands of Christianity fully understood and lived, and that Sacramental Baptism leaves GOD”S MARK “an indelible sign” on the Soul of the Baptized], that limit it’s reception more than one time. ….It is the sinful choices of the Baptized AFTER Baptism that make the other Sacraments ESSENTIAL.

However, we once again see the other side of Divine Justice. Just as God in a sense “had to” make known the Temporal Punishment that all sins acquires; and OFFER a remedy for repayment while we are still able to do so; so too it is that very same Divine Justice that motivated Jesus to INSTITUTE the other six Sacraments; most notably; Sacramental Confession and GIFT of Hos PERSOANL-SELF in Catholic Holy Communion, as “par-excellence” AIDS in one life walk to merit Salvation.

Your question seems to touch on OSAS, which is a moral impossibility as it denies God’s necessary Divine nature and Mans NECESSARY ongoing efforts to PROVE our fidelity and commitment to God.

{all of} LIFE IS THEE GOD TEST

Isa.43:7 & 21 “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." & the people whom I formed for myself

that they might declare my praise”

THE KEY WORDS HERE ARE “THEY MIGHT”; meaning that I enabled too, BUT do not force; rather I desire that they freely choose to know, love, obey and serve ME by all of their life choices.

So in the sense that all of our life-choices combine in one meriting salvation; which then is a onetime event BASED on the condition of ones Soul at death. To presuppose that one’s salvation is assured by a one time commitment [such as an altar call] is to [quite possibly gravely] underestimate GODs essential Divine Justice. It is because of man’s inherited propensity to sin, [THE LINGERING EFFECTS OF ORIGINAL SIN] that makes the protestant OSAS theology seriously flawed.

I agree; I don’t see a “second baptism event” taught in Scripture. Some say “you must also be baptized in the Spirit” – but to me the Apostles’ wording simply conveys “RECEIVING the Spirit”. Which we do at salvation, in my understanding often at waterbaptism.

Quote:
Confession for the forgiveness of sins [READ in this sequence}

1 John 1:5-6
1 John 5: 16-17
JOHN 20:19-23 all of which are literal [READ Mt 10:1-3; John 17:18 and John 20:21]

AND through the POWER of the Key’s [Mt 16:18-19] the Church is granted authority to introduce INDULGENCES for the CONDITIONAL-merited remission of the Temporal Punishment that ALL sins [even those Confessed & Forgiven sins] accrue. end quotes

I think you and I agree we still have to repent.

My friend, repentance is essential BUT ONLY the 1st step if one is to have sin forgiveness GODS WAY, rather than a post reformation very human invention. The teachings noted above are not suggestions; they are Christ COMMANDS. Amen

Thanks and continued Blessings
Patrick

 

[PJM]

The Other essential effects of Baptism ALSO come into play here; such as being made and MARKED indelibly as a Child of “FOR”] God now open to be OFFERED Sacramental Grace.

 

[jcrichton]

Sounds like when I said people read Scripture and stamp it, “NOT REALLY”…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

Correct!

What is an “idol”? It is anything, or anyONE, that takes a higher place in our esteem than God…

The problem is that many do not see it; it’s like those who use Scriptures to point out the fault of their spouses/relatives/friends… while they themselves do the same or worse…

Ironically, passages like that are mis-used by evil, to muzzle Christianity.

“DO NOT JUDGE!”

We are not commanded to “not-judge” – but rather TO judge, Jn7:24, 1Cor2:15, etcetera. Judging is the power of righteousness; we cannot separate “right” from “wrong” if we cannot judge. What Jesus advanced in Matt7 was “do not be a hypocrite”. While it is true only GOD has the right to judge, we are to operate as vessels for His judgment, always focused on convicting and turning to God and righteousness, never to condemn or destroy.
It is hollowood’s spirituality; do it with me and we cannot be held accountable–they conveniently forget about God’s Judgment!

That is their choice; inasmuch as God is love, and love cannot demand its own way (so all are commanded to love God back, but He decides nothing of who will), we also operate in love, and therefore we are bearers of HIS invitation and cannot force anyone to come.

But we do not condemn; by love (even those who seek to hurt and destroy us!), hearts are won to Jesus, and by nothing else. Yes some come seeking an “escape to Hell”, or “crowns/rewards/mansions”, but they who discover His presence fall in love with Him, and only those who truly love Him will spend eternity with Him.

Our most effective witnessing tool by far is to love people and provide for their needs, telling them how much more JESUS loves them. Every convert, especially from darknesses like Islam*, are won by His real love…

• Islam is a religion of fear; fear of sin, fear of death, fear of perishing. It is an astonishing revelation to discover GOD LOVES US, unconditionally and WHILE we are sinners, and He provides our cleansing and righteousness. Jesus is LOVE; no greater love has anyone than to lay down his life for his friends. He died, while we were sinners and not seeking, an act of pure unselfish benevolence.
  …someone once coined: ‘love conquers all.’

…of course I’m pretty sure this must have been someone alluding to Eros love; yet, the reality is that Love in deed conquers all:

16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.

(St. John 3:16-17)

27 because the Father himself loves you for loving me and believing that I came from God. (St. John 16:27)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Nope. “Other-worlders” sneaking into dark bedrooms and abducting people? People – who have a high involvement in occultism. A book written by an E.T. is fully 1/3 denying the deity of Jesus. Striking parallels to spiritism and demonology; nope, they’re not otherworlders, they’re bad angels.

Those so addicted to sin they deny the evidence and cling to Evolution and Humanism, hating God because they love darkness.

(Too bad I don’t feel strongly about this…)

You mean, OTHER than Kolob? Joseph Smith translated golden tablets that no one ever saw; except the three, and the eight (and their credibility is in shreds!). Using two “seer stones” (Urim and Thummim), which may have been clear glass or may have been golden spectacles. But “glass-looking” is occultic! I wonder who Moroni actually served? (No I don’t, I know!)

I’m reaching for the remote to change to a different program…

Yeah. Bad angels. OTOH, there are speculations about things like “nephilim”, possibly spawning Greek mythology…

I hit one of those in my 4x4! Threw him on the barby, he was delicious! (Nasty aroma though as he was cookin’…)

Wait — GRAVITY WAVES? Is there such a thang?

S’allright. “Pseudo scientists” feature prominently in the forward of my book. Ask them “how it began” – they have no idea, they just believe!

And a “belief”, is also called a RELIGION. Every Evolutionist is a Humanist, and the Humanist Manifesto of 1933 precept #1 states “This religious Humanism”… They admit it, then proselytize in every school and college in flaming hypocrisy and violation of both religion clauses of the American Constitution! It takes more faith to NOT believe in God, than to believe (and realize the Bible fits the facts perfectly). Magnitudes more faith, to infinity and beyond!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I engaged the excerpt as a form of levity… but it is interesting how certain truths arose… never new about that Humanist Manifesto… I always find it interesting that it takes so much faith to believe that there is no God… and every single atheist/humanist constantly reject that he/she has faith and follow a religion!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PJM]

That’s right – in all of the planets I’ve visited, I have never found any life! But seriously — so many things have to come together for life as we know it, foremost a radiation shield. … Even astronauts will not have long lives because of increased cancer. Really infuriates me when (pseudo!) scientists talk about “life on other planets”. As if

Question – who are “the elect”, in Matt: 24:24?

Matt.24:"as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect

Here is what Haydock applies to your question:

“Ver. 23. Lo, here is Christ. These words are very aptly applied by Catholics to the conventicles of heretics; and would Christians attend to the injunctions of their divine Master, Go ye not out:—believe it not, we should not see the miserable confusion occasioned in the Catholic Church, by unsteady Christians; who are guilty of schism, in forsaking the one true fold, and one shepherd, to follow their blind and unauthorized leaders”

NOTE AS A MARIAN CATECHIST WHO TAKES ANNUAL VOWS [NOT BINDING AT CANON LAW] BUT WITH GRAVE JUDGMENT IF I FAIL TO TEACH THE TRUTH IN ITS ENTIRETY

By the “elect” one is to understand

It does not mean those biblically “predestined” which ONLY means that Jesus as GOD, knows ALL thin gs and knows before hand what our life choices will be. BUT foreknowledge is not the same as CHOOSING who’s eternal reward will be hell OR heaven… such a philosophy denies God the Right to be perfect [GOD CANNOT GIVE HUMANITY A MIND, INTELLECT & FREEWILL AND THEN NOT PERMIT ITS USE]. And also man’s JUST RIGHT to employ freely these gifts.

“24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if it were possible) even the elect.”

This means the multiplicity of competing Christian Faiths & churches as TRUTH , can be ONLY what it is: SINGULAR per defined issue. It also means self identified agnostics and atheist. ALL of whom COULD choose to repent and convert.

It is not at all coincidental NOT one time IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE DOES God [Yahweh or Jesus} ever accept, tolerate any competition faiths]. The CLOSEST is when he said [NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY] that those teaching WITH us, can’t at the same time be against us… NOTE is to taken of “WITH US” means literally the SAME doctrine, same beliefs.

Matt.12: 30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters”.15:9 “And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.”

That is why the previous instruction on TRUTH having to be singular per defined issue,is of such CRITICAL understanding

GOD WILL, BECAUSE IN DIVINE JUSTICE GOD MUST PASS FINAL JUDGMENT UPON HUMANITY BASED NOT ON THAT THEY FREELY CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, ACCEPT AND LIVE. …NO, RATHER IT WILL BE BASED ON WHAT GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH SOUL TO KNOW, ACCEPT & BELIEVE.& LIVE.

How do you perceive Mt. 22:2-14? Who in view, was not invited (called) to the party? Of those who did not come (or did not put on the king’s clothing), which made their own choice?

Mt…22: 2 to 14

"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, `Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business…\

Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’
And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good;… “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

This has many important teachings

Wedding feast means Heaven
Wedding gown means Baptized
Those invited mean who dies without unconfessed, unremitted MORTAL sin
Cast Out means SELF chosen eternal HELL
Bad & good = repented & willing to repent
AND THE KING UNDERSTANDS THAT TRUTH CAN BE NOTHING OTHER THAN SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE

Agreed. I perceive Jesus was predestined (1Pet1:20-21, “foreknown-from-the-foundation”), our means of salvation is foreknown, but each person consciously chooses; that is the only way anyone could be judged!

AMEN!

That’s correct. The answer has to combine James2 (“justified by works and not by faith alone”), and Rom4 (“if Abraham was justified by works, then he could brag”) — and Rom11:6 (“if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”).

Yes. Still – “not-by-works” (Eph2:8, Rom11:6) must fit. For me, I understand passages like James (which mirrors Rom4:3 & Gen15:6 Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness!) — James explains in 2:22 that works perfected faith. So yes “we are not saved by works”, and also “yes justification is by works, but only indirectly as works perfect our faith and perfected-faith receives God’s justification”.

What do you think of this understanding?

I think ?] I covered this in my last POST to you. I covered this is some detail, BUT if you’d like further discussion PLEASE let me know.

My friend the kindness of your POST is noted and GREATLY appreciated. I PRAY that mine do not personally offend!.. I I struggle with being DIRECT

God Bless YOU!

Patrick

 

[Gadgeteer]

The RCC, sometime after the reformation & TRENT, though the powers of the Key’s and the grave responsibility they impose, had to rethink Her position on Baptism & the POSSIBILITY of some [highly conditionally] being able to merit their salvation outside; but nevertheless THROUGH the merits of the RCC because of t 1Tim. 2:3-4 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth [SINGULAR]

Acceptance of other Christian Baptism DONE with water in the names of the Blessed trinity was such an accommodation.

Hi, PJM. I think that’s a good thing, accepting of other Christian Baptism.

Thank you my BROTHER in Christ; but I feel compelled to share a warning BECAUSE we are Brothers.

"TRUTH!”

BENEDICT XVI
“If we omit the truth, what do we do anything for?”

“Their cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth”

FATHER HARDON, one f the most esteemed theologians of the 20th Century} taught this about TRUTH:

“Truth is the condition of grace, it is the source of grace, it is the channel of grace, it is the divinely ordained requirement of grace.” ….Father was a friend and occasional mentor of mine.

Ps.145 Verses 17 to 18 “
[17] The LORD is just in all his ways, and kind in all his doings. [18] The LORD is near to all who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth.

Dictionary Definition of “Truth”

1. The true or actual state of a matter:
   conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement
2. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths.
3. the state or character of being true.
4. actuality or actual existence.
5. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
6. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
7. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and
   transcending perceived experience:
8. agreement with a standard or original.
   9… accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
9. Archaic. Fidelity or constancy. End quotes

**THIS IS DIRECT JESUS TO THE APOSTLES AND BY NECESSITY THEIR SUCCESSORS [Mt 10:-1-8 compared to Mt 28: 18-20] and is exclusive to the RCC

The Bible is a Catholic Book that predates the reformation by about 1,500 years.**

John 14: 25 "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you”

Dear brother, TRUTH can only be what it is: SINGULAR per defined issue. The RCC is the author of the bible and alone id FULLY guided and protected by the Holy Spirit which explains BOTH:

How & why after 2,000 years we still have but One set of Faith beliefs; while others after just about 500 years have an ever increasing multiplicity of churches; EACH with their OWN set of faith beliefs which identify their church.

PJM, what you’re asking me to do is argue against Catholicism. I’m not willing to do that, especially on a Catholic board.

If you were to “label” my understanding of Scripture, you would find it much closer to Catholicism, than to Calvinism. I have posted here earnestly striving to be respectful and honoring to Catholic brothers and sisters, to celebrate what we had in common, and respect each others’ differences.

If I was to come to a Catholic board trying to change people away from central Catholic principles, I would likely be banned; and deservedly so. All I offered was “to allow others to see through my eyes”, expressing gratitude that you all allow ME to see through YOUR eyes, and sternly warning that no matter what ANYONE says, each person decides for himself or herself, and we must NOT take ANYTHING as fuel to storm into any assembly (including Catholic) with disputes factions or dissensions. No, I’m not out to change anyone.

…but understand, people here have changed me – I learned that Romans9 is part of a three-chapter-teaching where Paul was opposing an idea of “predestination”. I added that to my book I’m writing! I’ve added several verses that weren’t there before; expanding the treatment of Acts13:48 to include verse 50!

(PS – I know about the arguments long occurring between Catholics and RT’s, I hope I have given useful Scripture considerations against Reformed Theology.)

So — just let me say that I sincerely admire your enthusiasm for God, and I would never, EVER want to do anything to diminish your desire for Him. Let us be brothers, and look forward to the time when we will be together with Him.

God Bless you,
Patrick

And you, brother.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Matt.24:"as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect
.
.
.
By the “elect” one is to understand

It does not mean those biblically “predestined” which ONLY means that Jesus as GOD, knows ALL things and knows before hand what our life choices will be. BUT foreknowledge is not the same as CHOOSING who’s eternal reward will be hell OR heaven… such a philosophy denies God the Right to be perfect [GOD CANNOT GIVE HUMANITY A MIND, INTELLECT & FREEWILL AND THEN NOT PERMIT ITS USE]. And also man’s JUST RIGHT to employ freely these gifts.

Agree with absolutely everything you’ve said. Often I’ve commented on Rom8:29, “foreknow, does not mean fore-choose”.

“24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if it were possible) even the elect.”

This means the multiplicity of competing Christian Faiths & churches as TRUTH , can be ONLY what it is: SINGULAR per defined issue. It also means self identified agnostics and atheist. ALL of whom COULD choose to repent and convert.

It is not at all coincidental NOT one time IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE DOES God [Yahweh or Jesus} ever accept, tolerate any competition faiths].

That’s true; Jesus said “I am the only way — no one comes to the Father but by Me.”

The CLOSEST is when he said [NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY] that those teaching WITH us, can’t at the same time be against us… NOTE is to taken of “WITH US” means literally the SAME doctrine, same beliefs.

Matt.12: 30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters”.15:9 “And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.”

Amen. Jesus’ most central idea is that salvation is a gift of grace; all religions, all of them, urge adherents to struggle to make themselves righteous for God; it is terribly frustrating because as Paul said in Rm8:3, “our flesh is too weak to succeed.”

That is why the previous instruction on TRUTH having to be singular per defined issue,is of such CRITICAL understanding

GOD WILL, BECAUSE IN DIVINE JUSTICE GOD MUST PASS FINAL JUDGMENT UPON HUMANITY BASED NOT ON THAT THEY FREELY CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, ACCEPT AND LIVE. …NO, RATHER IT WILL BE BASED ON WHAT GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH SOUL TO KNOW, ACCEPT & BELIEVE.& LIVE.

In that, we have clear passages like Acts17:26-31, where God puts ALL men when and where each can seek Him and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; every last person is commanded to repent, Jesus’ resurrection is sufficient proof to all men.

Not “some men”, not "some-of-all-types", everyone.
It’s the same over and over; how about 1Jn2:2, “holos-kosmos WHOLE WORLD”?

Mt…22: 2 to 14

"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, `Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have made ready my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves are killed, and everything is ready; come to the marriage feast.’ But they made light of it and went off, one to his farm, another to his business…\

Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.’
And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good;… “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

This has many important teachings

Wedding feast means Heaven
Wedding gown means Baptized

Not to contradict, what about Isaiah61:10? “He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness”. I have no problem if you see that only as happening at waterbaptism. The point, is that He clothes us with His righteousness; while one interloper clung to his own (sinful) filthy rags…

Those invited mean who dies without unconfessed, unremitted MORTAL sin
Cast Out means SELF chosen eternal HELL
Bad & good = repented & willing to repent
AND THE KING UNDERSTANDS THAT TRUTH CAN BE NOTHING OTHER THAN SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE

How many people in Jesus’ story, were not invited? He said, “invite all you see”.

Who was excluded? Some that the KING did not LIKE? No; one refused by himself because he preferred business, another preferred farming. (And we already discussed the one who preferred his own soiled smelly tunic…)

I think ?] I covered this in my last POST to you. I covered this is some detail, BUT if you’d like further discussion PLEASE let me know.

I was just hoping that we agreed on “justification-by-works”, indirectly as the works matured our faith (and faith received His justification finished for us on the Cross). I would think Col2:14 would be conclusive; He nailed our certificate-of-debt to the Cross, two thousand years ago. Up there, canceled, “debt-paid”. BUT – we still have to abide in Him, else we will no longer be justified…

My friend the kindness of your POST is noted and GREATLY appreciated. I PRAY that mine do not personally offend!.. I I struggle with being DIRECT

Again you honor me greatly; and I hope not only that I have succeeded at being respectful, but that if anyone is offended by me that he or she would come to me and point out the offense, and I will try to make amends (and change).

God Bless YOU!

Patrick

:hug3:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Amen. Jesus’ most central idea is that salvation is a gift of grace; all religions, all of them, urge adherents to struggle to make themselves righteous for God; it is terribly frustrating because as Paul said in Rm8:3, “our flesh is too weak to succeed.”

Christianity is not a religion. We do not “make ourselves good enough for God”, we accept His grace, His reaching down to us in our filth, lifting us up to His own level after we’re cleansed completely by Jesus’ blood.

Our goodness, is therefore all of Him and nothing of us!

“How arrogant is it for you to say ‘I AM SAVED’ – who do you think you are?!”

Yes; terribly arrogant, if it was my own strength. But it’s not my strength, it’s all of Him — a free gift of love.

Who do I think I am? I am a child of God; I am someone so rotten and undeserving, but He still died for me because He loved me. Now I am “not my own, I am bought with a price”; a terrible price He paid, because it was the only way I could avoid dying!

and – He did the same for you, it would not be arrogant because you don’t have to do anything for Him to accept you, you don’t have to achieve anything, cleanse anything; He already loves you and died for you – all He asks is for you to give up the despair and death, give up the emptiness and the materialism that will turn to dust; and accept His love and His joy forever. Let HIM be your righteousness and your joy! That’s what this is about; you are invited to a PARTY, a celebration of love — will you come with us, and be a brother with us forever?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

What is an “idol”? It is anything, or anyONE, that takes a higher place in our esteem than God…

The problem is that many do not see it; it’s like those who use Scriptures to point out the fault of their spouses/relatives/friends… while they themselves do the same or worse…

There’s a story about a major snow storm; everybody was house-bound by the drifts. Except for one woman. And she was the biggest gossip, back-stabber and backslider in the congregation. Preacher (who lived at the church) recognized a great opportunity! So he gave a resounding sermon, pointing out all the lady’s sins!

Afterwards she shook his hand as she was leaving; looked thoughtful, and said:
“Preacher, it’s a crying shame the rest weren’t here to listen today, it woulda done them good!”

It is hollowood’s spirituality; do it with me and we cannot be held accountable–they conveniently forget about God’s Judgment!

But God is not mocked, and cannot be fooled. (Wait — didn’t someone just say that???)

…someone once coined: ‘love conquers all.’

…of course I’m pretty sure this must have been someone alluding to Eros love; yet, the reality is that Love in deed conquers all:

“Eros” without emotional intimacy is pure selfishness. And that’s what keeps people from Jesus. Ironic, because yes He’s much more than a ticket outta Hell — but He is also a ticket outta Hell!

(Sigh.)

 

[Gadgeteer]

…I engaged the excerpt as a form of levity…

And it was appreciated! Most people enjoy laughing…

but it is interesting how certain truths arose… never knew about that Humanist Manifesto… I always find it interesting that it takes so much faith to believe that there is no God… and every single atheist/humanist constantly reject that he/she has faith and follow a religion!

A prominent Evolutionist was asked once “why do people believe in evolution when there is no evidence for it?”

His answer was honest; he thought the reason was sexual. Because, “If God exists, then mankind becomes accountable to someone outside of themselves, and cannot engage in every twisted and perverted thing they desire.”

(Hope I didn’t offend anyone!)

As I said, “love-of-sin”; same as Jesus said in Jn3:18-19 – “those who love darkness avoid the light, lest their evil deeds be exposed.”

…really stupid, because I hear everyone will be watching as each of us is judged for what we’ve done…

 

[PJM]

Hi, PJM. I think that’s a good thing, accepting of other Christian Baptism

PJM, what you’re asking me to do is argue against Catholicism. I’m not willing to do that, especially on a Catholic board.

If you were to “label” my understanding of Scripture, you would find it much closer to Catholicism, than to Calvinism. I have posted here earnestly striving to be respectful and honoring to Catholic brothers and sisters, to celebrate what we had in common, and respect each others’ differences.

No my friend

But it is precisely because this is a Catholic PUBLIC forum, that I am required to be truthful, honest and candid; all supported by facts in Charity.

The tenor of ALL of your POST is kind and much appreciated. BUT when you express a faith-position that differs from what the RCC teaches, I am obligated to correct it.

If I was to come to a Catholic board trying to change people away from central Catholic principles, I would likely be banned; and deservedly so. All I offered was “to allow others to see through my eyes”, expressing gratitude that you all allow ME to see through YOUR eyes, and sternly warning that no matter what ANYONE says, each person decides for himself or herself, and we must NOT take ANYTHING as fuel to storm into any assembly (including Catholic) with disputes factions or dissensions. No, I’m not out to change anyone

And that is good and well; HOWEVER, as an Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholic, if you post a position that does not fully-align with ours I CANNOT simply pretend that it does, nor let it go uncorrected for FEAR that someone may get the impression that the RCC is wrong…

This is too a TEACHING Catholicism Forum.

…but understand, people here have changed me – I learned that Romans9 is part of a three-chapter-teaching where Paul was opposing an idea of “predestination”. I added that to my book I’m writing! I’ve added several verses that weren’t there before; expanding the treatment of Acts13:48 to include verse 50!

Thank you for making my point:thumbsup:

(PS – I know about the arguments long occurring between Catholics and RT’s, I hope I have given useful Scripture considerations against Reformed Theology.)

So — just let me say that I sincerely admire your enthusiasm for God, and I would never, EVER want to do anything to diminish your desire for Him. Let us be brothers, and look forward to the time when we will be together with Him

.

And you, brother.



AMEN! Brother

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Agree with absolutely everything you’ve said. Often I’ve commented on Rom8:29, “foreknow, does not mean fore-choose”.

That’s true; Jesus said “I am the only way — no one comes to the Father but by Me.”

Amen. Jesus’ most central idea is that salvation is a gift of grace; all religions, all of them, urge adherents to struggle to make themselves righteous for God; it is terribly frustrating because as Paul said in Rm8:3, “our flesh is too weak to succeed.”

In that, we have clear passages like Acts17:26-31, where God puts ALL men when and where each can seek Him and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; every last person is commanded to repent, Jesus’ resurrection is sufficient proof to all men.

Not “some men”, not "some-of-all-types", everyone.
It’s the same over and over; how about 1Jn2:2, “holos-kosmos WHOLE WORLD”?

Not to contradict, what about Isaiah61:10? “He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness”. I have no problem if you see that only as happening at waterbaptism. The point, is that He clothes us with His righteousness; while one interloper clung to his own (sinful) filthy rags.

THE MEANING HERE IS THAT S THAT GOD MAKES POSSIBLE OUR [EVERYONE’S] SALVATION BY OFFERING AT LEAST “SUFFICIENT GRACE” TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE. , IT’S REALLY A PRESENT AND FUTURE TENSE TEACHING, NOT A "DONE DEAL:

How many people in Jesus’ story, were not invited? He said, “invite all you see”.

This is the same teaching that we find in the Narrow Gate parable. ALL are invited; FEW accept the invitation Mt 7: 13-20

Who was excluded? Some that the KING did not LIKE? No; one refused by himself because he preferred business, another preferred farming. (And we already discussed the one who preferred his own soiled smelly tunic…)

I was just hoping that we agreed on “justification-by-works”, indirectly as the works matured our faith (and faith received His justification finished for us on the Cross). I would think Col2:14 would be conclusive; He nailed our certificate-of-debt to the Cross, two thousand years ago. Up there, canceled, “debt-paid”. BUT – we still have to abide in Him, else we will no longer be justified.

…
**JUSTIFICATION, THEOLOGY OF. The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent. “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524). On the negative side, justification is a true removal of sin, and not merely having one’s sins ignored or no longer held against the sinner by God. On the positive side it is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven.

The Catholic Church identifies five elements of justification, which collectively define its full meaning. The primary purpose of justification is the honor of God and of Christ; its secondary purpose is the eternal life of mankind. The main efficient cause or agent is the mercy of God; the main instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is called the “sacrament of faith” to spell out the necessity of faith for salvation. And that which constitutes justification or its essence is the justice of God, “not by which He is just Himself, but by which He makes us just,” namely sanctifying grace.

Depending on the sins from which a person is to be delivered, there are different kinds of justification. An infant is justified by baptism and the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament. Adults are justified for the first time either by personal faith, sorrow for sin and baptism, or by the perfect love of God, which is at least an implicit baptism of desire. Adults who have sinned gravely after being justified can receive justification by sacramental absolution or perfect contrition for their sins. (Etym. Latin justus, just + facere, to make, do: justificatio.) {inserted by pjm…John 20:19-23}

Again you honor me greatly; and I hope not only that I have succeeded at being respectful, but that if anyone is offended by me that he or she would come to me and point out the offense, and I will try to make amends (and change). FROM FATHER HARDON’S CATHOLIC DICTIONARY **

:hug3:

Right back at ya!

GBY

 

[Gadgeteer]

No my friend

But it is precisely because this is a Catholic PUBLIC forum, that I am required to be truthful, honest and candid; all supported by facts in Charity.

The tenor of ALL of your POST is kind and much appreciated. BUT when you express a faith-position that differs from what the RCC teaches, I am obligated to correct it.

I would expect nothing less!

And that is good and well; HOWEVER, as an Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholic, if you post a position that does not fully-align with ours I CANNOT simply pretend that it does, nor let it go uncorrected for FEAR that someone may get the impression that the RCC is wrong…

This is too a TEACHING Catholicism Forum.

Thank you for making my point

He who has nothing left to learn, is truly ignorant. Paul says “now we see in a mirror dimly, now we know in part; when the perfect has come we will know fully, even as we are fully known…”

And you, brother.

 

[Gadgeteer]

THE MEANING HERE IS THAT S THAT GOD MAKES POSSIBLE OUR [EVERYONE’S] SALVATION BY OFFERING AT LEAST “SUFFICIENT GRACE” TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE. , IT’S REALLY A PRESENT AND FUTURE TENSE TEACHING, NOT A "DONE DEAL:

Well, in the parable of Matt22:2-14, it was a custom that a king would provide clean clothes for the wedding feast. Although not directly stated that “he refused the king’s clean clothes”, it is implied, and does reflect Isaiah61:10 “He has clothed me with His righteousness”. The opposite of that is Isaiah64:6, “And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment…” The conspicuous Hebrew words for “filthy garment” are a whole lot worse than the English purports.

This is the same teaching that we find in the Narrow Gate parable. ALL are invited; FEW accept the invitation Mt 7: 13-20

I think you are more right than you realize; in that verse, “few are those who heurisko” — find by seeking.

…so much for Calvinists’ insisting that Rom3 teaching “NO ONE CAN seek”…

JUSTIFICATION, THEOLOGY OF. The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent. “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524). On the negative side, justification is a true removal of sin, and not merely having one’s sins ignored or no longer held against the sinner by God. On the positive side it is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven.

“Justified” is being declared righteous, “sanctification” is being made righteous. As Rom4:3 says (citing Gen15:6) — “Abraham believed, and it was reckoned as righteousness.”

The Catholic Church identifies five elements of justification, which collectively define its full meaning. The primary purpose of justification is the honor of God and of Christ; its secondary purpose is the eternal life of mankind. The main efficient cause or agent is the mercy of God; the main instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is called the “sacrament of faith” to spell out the necessity of faith for salvation. And that which constitutes justification or its essence is the justice of God, “not by which He is just Himself, but by which He makes us just,” namely sanctifying grace.

Depending on the sins from which a person is to be delivered, there are different kinds of justification. An infant is justified by baptism and the faith of the one who requests or confers the sacrament. Adults are justified for the first time either by personal faith, sorrow for sin and baptism, or by the perfect love of God, which is at least an implicit baptism of desire. Adults who have sinned gravely after being justified can receive justification by sacramental absolution or perfect contrition for their sins. (Etym. Latin justus, just + facere, to make, do: justificatio.) {inserted by pjm…John 20:19-23}

Interesting. Wild that I was raised “Presbyterian” (a Calvinistic church), where they did infant baptism.

…yes it was done to me too…

Right back at ya!

GBY

 

[jcrichton]

There’s a story about a major snow storm; everybody was house-bound by the drifts. Except for one woman. And she was the biggest gossip, back-stabber and backslider in the congregation. Preacher (who lived at the church) recognized a great opportunity! So he gave a resounding sermon, pointing out all the lady’s sins!

Afterwards she shook his hand as she was leaving; looked thoughtful, and said:
“Preacher, it’s a crying shame the rest weren’t here to listen today, it woulda done them good!”

But God is not mocked, and cannot be fooled. (Wait — didn’t someone just say that???)

“Eros” without emotional intimacy is pure selfishness. And that’s what keeps people from Jesus. Ironic, because yes He’s much more than a ticket outta Hell — but He is also a ticket outta Hell!

(Sigh.)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…at this time all I can do is



…thank you for the laugh!

…it reminded me of a local gossiper who confided, ‘…this is between you and me…’

…so I replied, ‘yeah, I never speak about other people…’ and came back with ‘…what can you tell me about…’

Sometimes people are as thick as those skids being portrayed in shows and commercials… :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And it was appreciated! Most people enjoy laughing…

A prominent Evolutionist was asked once “why do people believe in evolution when there is no evidence for it?”

His answer was honest; he thought the reason was sexual. Because, “If God exists, then mankind becomes accountable to someone outside of themselves, and cannot engage in every twisted and perverted thing they desire.”

(Hope I didn’t offend anyone!)

As I said, “love-of-sin”; same as Jesus said in Jn3:18-19 – “those who love darkness avoid the light, lest their evil deeds be exposed.”

…really stupid, because I hear everyone will be watching as each of us is judged for what we’ve done…

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…I’m not sure about that one… how long does it take the Holy Spirit to search man’s heart and mind? … a zillionth of a nanosecond?

…still, I’m almost sure there will be those who will complaint that the line is slow.

Maran atha!

Angel