Occupy protests go from peace to "chaos"

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"The most sacred laws of justice, therefore, those whose violation seems to call loudest for vengeance and punishment, are the laws which guard the life and person of our neighbor, the next are those which guard his property and possessions."
~ Adam Smith
 
Well a real cap would be silly and unrealistic. The point I was trying to make is that if this hugely gross income level disparity didn’t exist (and it was a more “normal” income disparity) there would be more jobs and less poor people. That’s all.

How many US dollars are in circulation? I don’t know, but I know its certainly not infinite. That means that the more that some people have more, the more others will have less. Dollars wouldn’t start disappearing…they would end up in other people’s hands. Pretty straightforward to me.
Basically, executive salaries loosely follow an auction system.

If a company wants to hire or promote someone for a CEO job, it will have to offer a compensation package that is attractive enough to attract the best candidates.

If everyone was capped at [your figure] $500,000 then there would be no incentive for people to perform at their best.

And that would mean there might be ten people at the top of each company making $500,000. What would happen is that the top people would be frustrated because there would be nothing they could do to improve their personal situation. So, they would start taking more time off from work. The really excellent executives could “do” their $500,000 worth of work in just a couple of days per week. After that, they might devote their energy to some other effort. Maybe golf or fishing or sailing.

If the company really wanted them be there to do more of the executive stuff that they were so good at, the company would have to come up with some other incentive.

Being a CEO is more than just sitting at a big desk and having flunkies bringing them coffee. You spend hours going over all the financials of the company in great detail and asking detailed questions about each aspect of the company. If profits are down, then you need to find out why and what can be done about it. If you perceive an opportunity for new products or services or locations, then YOU have to make the decision. If there are issues regarding changing some financial arrangements, then YOU have to go to the board of directors with your proposals. If some subsidiary is not performing or if the competition is taking your customers away, then YOU have to decide why and if necessary to replace the person heading that subsidiary. And you have to do twenty of these things each day.

You may have all kinds of vice presidents, but the decisions are made by YOU, not by them. Because if THEY make decisions that don’t work out, then YOU, as the CEO, get the blame for the company’s financial flops.

If a CEO screws up, then he or she has to explain why … and had better know why … and how to fix it … or runs the risk of being replaced. Happens all the time.

If you want the title, then you have to perform.

And, there are plenty of executive recruiters out there, whispering in the ears of the directors … if an executive shows weakness, then he or she is on slippery ground … thanks to the auction system, there are PLENTY of candidates ready, willing and able to replace a CEO.

And if a cheaply paid CEO persists in doing a really excellent job, he or she might find out that some overseas company is making a tender offer for the stock of the company … and that might be disadvantageous to the employees and to the shareholders. A well-compensated CEO might have an incentive to protect the company from a hostile take-over. A Saudi company or a front for an Iranian company might offer the underpaid executive a contract, for example. Done above board, of course.

But if you were a shareholder and depended on the dividends paid by the company to live on [after all … you paid for the stock with money you had carefully saved up and then researched and invested], would you want all of that disrupted?
 
Woman dies at Occupy Vancouver site

A female, who is believed in her 20s, died late Saturday afternoon at Occupy Vancouver in what Vancouver Fire and Rescue Services are calling a “medical emergency.”

VFRS spokesman Capt. Gabe Roder confirmed the woman who died was in a tent, but it is unknown whether she was a resident of the tent city.

“We don’t know if it’s an overdose,” Roder said.

Witnesses report a chaotic scene outside the Vancouver Art Gallery Saturday around 5 p.m. At least two ambulances responded the art gallery grounds. The entrance to the encampment is currently sectioned off with police tape.

Read more: vancouversun.com/Woman+dies+Occupy+Vancouver+site/5664471/story.html#ixzz1csxIGBjO
 
Basically, executive salaries loosely follow an auction system.

If a company wants to hire or promote someone for a CEO job, it will have to offer a compensation package that is attractive enough to attract the best candidates.

If everyone was capped at [your figure] $500,000 then there would be no incentive for people to perform at their best…

And if a cheaply paid CEO persists in doing a really excellent job, he or she might find out that some overseas company is making a tender offer for the stock of the company … and that might be disadvantageous to the employees and to the shareholders. A well-compensated CEO might have an incentive to protect the company from a hostile take-over. A Saudi company or a front for an Iranian company might offer the underpaid executive a contract, for example. Done above board, of course.

But if you were a shareholder and depended on the dividends paid by the company to live on [after all … you paid for the stock with money you had carefully saved up and then researched and invested], would you want all of that disrupted?
The problem is that you ignore an important point: the CEO essentially chooses who is on his compensation committee. Therefore, he is free to fire anyone who refuses to raise his pay. The job of the compensation committee thus becomes: “find a reasonable-sounding justification for increasing our CEO’s pay.” What most committees end up doing is to pay the CEO slightly more than the median pay for other CEOs. They can therefore say “we are paying a bit more than our competitors to retain talent.” What is not taken into account is whether or not the CEO is actually worth what they are paying him; this is not questioned because no company wants to believe that their CEO’s performance is sub-par. Moreover, since many companies end up employing this strategy, the median pay is forced higher every year, resulting in the rapid upward spiral we’re observing.
 
The problem is that you ignore an important point: the CEO essentially chooses who is on his compensation committee. Therefore, he is free to fire anyone who refuses to raise his pay. The job of the compensation committee thus becomes: “find a reasonable-sounding justification for increasing our CEO’s pay.” What most committees end up doing is to pay the CEO slightly more than the median pay for other CEOs. They can therefore say “we are paying a bit more than our competitors to retain talent.” What is not taken into account is whether or not the CEO is actually worth what they are paying him; this is not questioned because no company wants to believe that their CEO’s performance is sub-par. Moreover, since many companies end up employing this strategy, the median pay is forced higher every year, resulting in the rapid upward spiral we’re observing.
The people on the board of directors are not that isolated or that stupid. They’re the ones who ultimately make the decision.

They know what is going on in the industry and in the marketplace. They belong to other boards and to various foundations and they are widely knowledgable about the business and government environment.

All kinds of people have their ears and are constantly suggesting changes.

It all comes down to overall performance.

Consistently poor performance and you are OUT.

Consistently excellent performance and they will bend over backwards to keep you.

Mediocre performance and they start to get tempted to replace you.

You need to get out to the operations and see for yourself what is going on. You need to be in touch with your overseas executives. It means being in your office from 7am to 7pm and then traveling once a week, at least. Which is why you take your corporate jet out Sunday night to a location four time zones away or overseas.

If you put a cap on compensation, then you end up with cronies running things. School chums. Drinking buddies. People who don’t want to work hard or who work 9-4 and travel on company time. And crony anything results in disaster. And the last thing the board of directors wants is a disaster. What they might do is entertain a takeover bid from a competitor or from someone with deep pockets who wants all or part of your company.

It seems that free enterprise and American-style capitalism is under attack all over the world. For most, it probably came to the forefront of our conciousness with the protests on Wall Street, but riots have been going on in many countries of the world for at least 2 years.

On Wall St., the protestors scream that the “one percent” of the most wealthy among us are the source of all our problems. Capitalism itself is the demon.

Really?!! Do they understand what they want to throw out?

Yes, a few criminals in both government and in finance caused a lot of our problems. We wonder why it is that not a single indictment has been handed down in regard to the financial crisis? That doesn’t mean we should throw out a system that has so thoroughly demonstrated its superiority to any other financial system in the history of the world!
You see, it turns out that nearly all Americans are in the top 1% of income if you compare us to the entire globe. The only possible outcome of throwing out free market capitalism is that we will all get much poorer as the years go by.
 
Monte
It all comes down to overall performance.
Well if this were only true, perhaps the inequality wouldn’t be so distasteful to those at the bottom.

Fact is, poor performing CEO’s who have done great harm to corporations, causing many layoffs, get to leave with big severance packages and golden parachutes.

Heck, one company I worked for, after the CEO sold off most of the company in order to transform it into something it was never started to be, was paid $9 million when he was forced to resign.

There is a good O’ boy network among many top executives.

The salaries disparity between executives and the labor force of the corporations in the USA is far wider than in other industrialized nations.

I believe in the USA it’s 30% higher than the average employee of the corporation, where in Japan and other nations, it doesn’t get higher than 16%.

Jim
 
Our problems are not that Steve Jobs or Bill Gates made too much money
 
Monte

Well if this were only true, perhaps the inequality wouldn’t be so distasteful to those at the bottom.

Fact is, poor performing CEO’s who have done great harm to corporations, causing many layoffs, get to leave with big severance packages and golden parachutes.

Heck, one company I worked for, after the CEO sold off most of the company in order to transform it into something it was never started to be, was paid $9 million when he was forced to resign.

There is a good O’ boy network among many top executives.

The salaries disparity between executives and the labor force of the corporations in the USA is far wider than in other industrialized nations.

I believe in the USA it’s 30% higher than the average employee of the corporation, where in Japan and other nations, it doesn’t get higher than 16%.

Jim
No one is perfect. Boards of directors screw up just like everyone else.

However, as of two years ago: … The 2 primary stock exchanges in the US are the NYSE with 2773 listed companies and the NASDAQ with 3,700 listed companies for a combined total of 6,473. There are other smaller exchanges. In Europe and Asia the are many maybe 100 stock exchanges and thousands of companies as well.

Those are just the publicly-traded companies. There are also large numbers of large corporations that are privately owned or not publicly-traded.

They don’t all screw up. It is unfortunate that the place you worked was one of the screwed-up places.

On the other hand, companies form and reform and transform all the time.

[Heck, Mr. Obama said he would totallty transform the United States.]
 
Some of the posts I’ve read here frighten me more than the protesters at OWS.
 
Some of the posts I’ve read here frighten me more than the protesters at OWS.
Same here
Why is that?

Would you care to share some specifics?
I can. I’ve seen people on this forum attack Muslims and make gross falsehoods about them. I’ve also seen unfair insults of liberals and liberalism, with people going as far as calling it a cancer
 
Wow this thread is crazy you people know very little about the occupy movement. Its like you pretend not to watch the antichristian mainstream media but actually listen to them about this and politicals. The occupy movement has been peaceful from the start and even the oakland protesters were peaceful those people were provoked by the cops who have arrested and physically attacked the protestors it could only go so far. And Oakland is known for its violent people and angry people so its not a suprise they react.

Dont judge everyone in the national protest by the acts of few. The protest is meant to be peaceful and for the most part it has stayed that way. The protest is to fight political and corporate corruption which has caused world problems and deaths. I am against violence and violent protestors but Their is nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. And if you people were truly not bias against the protestors you would look up all the countless videos of protestors many being women being beaten pepper sprayed and arrested for just standing around. Again almost all of the protests have been peaceful and what they are protesting does not seem bad or crazy.
 
Wow this thread is crazy you people know very little about the occupy movement. Its like you pretend not to watch the antichristian mainstream media but actually listen to them about this and politicals. The occupy movement has been peaceful from the start and even the oakland protesters were peaceful those people were provoked by the cops who have arrested and physically attacked the protestors it could only go so far. And Oakland is known for its violent people and angry people so its not a suprise they react.

Dont judge everyone in the national protest by the acts of few. The protest is meant to be peaceful and for the most part it has stayed that way. The protest is to fight political and corporate corruption which has caused world problems and deaths. I am against violence and violent protestors but Their is nothing wrong with a peaceful protest. And if you people were truly not bias against the protestors you would look up all the countless videos of protestors many being women being beaten pepper sprayed and arrested for just standing around. Again almost all of the protests have been peaceful and what they are protesting does not seem bad or crazy.
I’m sorry. I missed the memo where people were being stolen from, vandalizing, raped or dying on CAF. Heck, i despize PETA protests for their human-on-human violence and think LGBT parades are sexual promiscuity factories but even IF its 1/100 thats way TOO many casulities for a social statement.

Its again a SOCIAL statement.

With mob mentality i am sure only the typical percentage of crimes comitted are being reported. People need to go have their camping trip elseware.
 
I understand there have been some clashes with police, as this is to be expected. However, the protestors fail to acknowledge that their right to protest ends where the rights of others begins. They do not have the right to inhibit safe passage to and from businesses for days on end. They have no right over privately owned property. Like many protests of this nature, the danger is that they will hit the wrong target, hurting others like themselves and doing nothing to those they wish to protest against.
 
Why is that?

Would you care to share some specifics?
I think the talk about second amendment remedies and the don’t tread on me mentality fail to see the forest through the trees. What? “Real” men don’t protest? What’s better; getting out there and having your voice heard or sitting in your cabin with your gun in your lap waiting for the guvmint to come and get you? It’s just posturing without contributing IMHO.
 
What’s better; getting out there and having your voice heard or sitting in your cabin with your gun in your lap waiting for the guvmint to come and get you?
Government. I think it best not to perpetuate the myth that those who are different than us are somehow more stupid by use of stereotyping.
 
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