Occupy Wall Street?

[Nate13]

So he’s SOL? OK that’s the response I expected. But why is it OK for the bigwigs in banking and investment to get multi-million dollar bonuses at the same time that people like you, me, and my brother take big losses in the value of our investments?

I assume your specifically talking about bigwigs that were part of companies that had losses correct? I’d assume you could chalk that up to usually be contract clauses or maybe their actions saved the company from losing even more money. Would you support them getting bonus’ then if they saved you from losing twice as much in their stock? The problem is we have gone soft in the 18 year bull market we had starting in 1980 and going until 1998. We have got in the habit of assuming we get economic growth every year and if you look at the history of the stock market that is just not the case. We assume that a company is a failure if it doesn’t grow or suffers a small loss, and this is also not the case traditionally.

 

[mgoforth]

There is a parable about judging YOURSELF and not others.

You are responsible for yourself and your minority age children.

No one else.

No one has the right to decide what others must do or not do or what kind of person they are or might be. Or whether those other people are working too hard … unless they ask you for your advice. Which isn’t the case here.

When someone wants my money, then I can assess whether they really need it or not, or if they are just too lazy to work.

Ok, I’ll bite…

Please identify the parable in question (chapter and verse) so we can examine the context as well as it’s relation to the rest of Scripture and Tradition. Not that I doubt your interpretation or anything, Monte…just that it goes against everything I’ve learned from the Church about helping others, etc…so I want to have the reference in hand when I ask my priest why he’s been misleading me this whole time.

I’ll confess that I’m not familiar with the parable you mention “Verily I say to you, only worry about yourself and your immediate family members…everyone else is on their own”.

For some reason the phrase “we’re all brothers and sisters in Christ” keeps popping into my head??? I think I’m just terribly confused. Could you please post that verse so I can get my conscience back on the right track?

And I guess while we’re at it we should probably have a review session…for my benefit I mean…on the Biblical definition of “judging” someone. I keep offending you by suggesting that others may be living immorally and I apologize for that. There must be a verse, right next to the other one you mention, that says something like “Blessed are those who never try to encourage anyone to follow the Lord out of love, but rather mind their own beeswax” right?

Which would make perfect sense…I’ve always had a suspicion that the Church’s real motive is to keep anyone from having any fun! That’s two strikes for the priest.

 

[estesbob]

So he’s SOL? OK that’s the response I expected. But why is it OK for the bigwigs in banking and investment to get multi-million dollar bonuses at the same time that people like you, me, and my brother take big losses in the value of our investments?

Who said he was SOL? Regardless of what is 401(k) is doing. He should still have Social Security to fall back on. Again, you are asking us a comment on ancedotal evidence that on the face of it does not make much sesne The only way he would be having a problem retiring because of the current downturn in the market would be if he did not start investing for his retirement until three years ago-at which point it is very difficult to lay the blame on evil Wall Street speculators or anybody else. If he is around 65 he would’ve started investing for retirement back in the early 80s when the Dow was under a 1,000 It has increased 12 fold since in spite of the recent downtown.

 

[estesbob]

He didn’t start retirement saving in his 60’s. He started when 401ks and IRAs first started becoming available.
I’m guessing that you, estesbob, are not living off of retirement investment income or are going to have to in the next 3 years or so… am I right?

Then his portfolio should have increased 10 to twelvefold in spite of the recent downturn.

 

[mgoforth]

There is a parable about judging YOURSELF and not others.

You are responsible for yourself and your minority age children.

No one else.

No one has the right to decide what others must do or not do or what kind of person they are or might be. Or whether those other people are working too hard … unless they ask you for your advice. Which isn’t the case here.

When someone wants my money, then I can assess whether they really need it or not, or if they are just too lazy to work.

Wait, I just read this again…and now I’m even more confused!

"No one has the right to decide what others must do or not do or what kind of person they are or might be." Gotcha. Check. Place head in sand and make absolutely no “rational deductions based on evidence” (that’s WAAAY too close to the ugly J word) about anyone. Done.

But then I read "When someone wants my money, then I can assess whether they really need it or not, or if they are just too lazy to work." And it would ALMOST seem like you’re judging (gasp!) that lazy bum asking you for help…Monte, I don’t know what to make of this?? Is the takeaway here that I can “assess” someone, but not…you know…that other word? Or is it a certain group that’s allowed to come to conclusions about other people…I just don’t know anymore!

 

[mgoforth]

…He should still have Social Security to fall back on…

Estesbob, you win the Ironic Statement of the Millenium Award.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I assume your specifically talking about bigwigs that were part of companies that had losses correct? I’d assume you could chalk that up to usually be contract clauses or maybe their actions saved the company from losing even more money. Would you support them getting bonus’ then if they saved you from losing twice as much in their stock? The problem is we have gone soft in the 18 year bull market we had starting in 1980 and going until 1998. We have got in the habit of assuming we get economic growth every year and if you look at the history of the stock market that is just not the case. We assume that a company is a failure if it doesn’t grow or suffers a small loss, and this is also not the case traditionally.

People don’t understand this. A few obvious things to point out…

Everyone is going to try to negotiate the best employment deal they can. If a CEO negotiates a contract and meets some or all the metrics, they should be paid as their contract states - even if their earnings/stock price look to be in the tank. This problem falls squarely on the board of directors and share holders for agreeing to contract terms. Don’t like it? As a shareholder, vote the board out.

Secondly, people don’t understand that over the long term, you will come out ahead in the stock market, especially if you diversify. This is just common sense and the data backs this up.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Who said he was SOL? Regardless of what is 401(k) is doing. He should still have Social Security to fall back on. Again, you are asking us a comment on ancedotal evidence that on the face of it does not make much sesne The only way he would be having a problem retiring because of the current downturn in the market would be if he did not start investing for his retirement until three years ago-at which point it is very difficult to lay the blame on evil Wall Street speculators or anybody else. If he is around 65 he would’ve started investing for retirement back in the early 80s when the Dow was under a 1,000 It has increased 12 fold since in spite of the recent downtown.

The biggest blamed should be placed at this persons feet and the expectation that markets will always go up, especially over the short term, is false.

 

[estesbob]

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After ‘Occupy’ Group Splatters Blood, Urine

losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/

 

[je333]

These “kids” protesting at the OWS are what I’d like to call “prodigal children.” Let us pray for them and not antagonize them, otherwise, they might become even angrier. They are our fellow brothers and sisters. I read a lot about the distinctions between the law abiding conservative protesters vs. liberals. Can’t we find good people on either side? If we truely care especially those with lots of money, then, donate portable toilets, food, tents, etc… Would you rather see them trash on people like some people on these forum who think they are better than the OWS protestors? The Occupy movement and the Tea Party movement both contribute for the betterment of the world. They must work together regardless of political party. Conservatives can’t have everything, the liberals can’t have everything, either.

God loves them( He loves them very much), so we must love them, too.

 

[je333]

SoCal Street Cart Vendors Hurting After ‘Occupy’ Group Splatters Blood, Urine

losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/

People who do this are not truely sincere about the OWS movement. They might be even an OWS pretender who are trying to tarnish the movement. Or the people who write these articles are not telling the truth. They will try to look for anything to trash and degrade the movement. Who is the person writing this and what is his political party/affiliation? We should not listen to negative voices? We have to listen to what the movement’s real demands that will help the whole country and our fellow Americans in general.

Any body else trying to tarnish and demonize the OWS group, well that’s all they are doing and it is reflective of themselves.

 

[je333]

It’s all about money! People are so greedy! God did not create money. I would like to see it during my life time when money is only a pigment of our imagination.

 

[estesbob]

People who do this are not truely sincere about the OWS movement. They might be even an OWS pretender who are trying to tarnish the movement. Or the people who write these articles are not telling the truth. They will try to look for anything to trash and degrade the movement. Who is the person writing this and what is his political party/affiliation? We should not listen to negative voices? We have to listen to what the movement’s real demands that will help the whole country and our fellow Americans in general.

Any body else trying to tarnish and demonize the OWS group, well that’s all they are doing and it is reflective of themselves.

There us no need to demonize them they are doing a good job of it with no help at all

 

[searching04]

I’m interested in people here’s views of the Occupy Wall Street movement. It seems, with the exception of some Italian Communists hijacking the Rome rally, that the movement is peaceful, largely law-abiding, and has as its aims some form of distributist approach, in which moral values would trump greed in the regulation of the market. They are extremely disorganized and incoherent, but there is a groundswell of argument in favor of some kind of decentralized control of the wealth.

Peaceful? Are you kidding? Do you not watch the news, when they bother to show the violence? OWS - which now needs to be knows as Obamaville - are nothing whatsoever like the Tea Party. OWS had burned tires, started riots, blockaded ports (CA), attacked police and raped chldren (Dallas), and deficated on police cars (East coast). They are anarchists and socialists, union thugs, and selfish, lazy, disgruntled people.

Distributist? You mean SOCIALIST?

It also seems to me that the Occupy Wall Street movement and the Tea Party basically want the same thing - the Tea Party want to see the Federal Government give powers back to the State and local level, while OWS want to see big multinational corporations broken up so that they have to pay attention to local needs instead of corporate profit.

And this is Communism. Are you serious?

If someone could harness both, they would be highly electable, but they would also be the President who destroyed America, by breaking up everything that holds the Nation together, turning it into a loose federation of autonomous communities - within a decade there would be nothing that a pro-life prayer-in-public-schools Texas would have in common with a Massachussets where pot was legal and handguns were not.

I guess there are two questions here - what do people make of Occupy Wall Street, and is there anything that holds America together anymore?

Not a whole lot. But the Tea Party - and true American, Constitution-loving, freedom-loving people - are trying really, really hard. Obama wants the divide; Obama wants Socialism. Call him and his policies what they are, for Pete’s sake. It surely is not freedom and Democracy.

 

[je333]

Not a whole lot. But the Tea Party - and true American, Constitution-loving, freedom-loving people - are trying really, really hard. Obama wants the divide; Obama wants Socialism. Call him and his policies what they are, for Pete’s sake. It surely is not freedom and Democracy.

It seems to me like you want the divide. If you belong only to one party and hate the other ones, then you contribute to the division of these United States of America. You distance yourself from the OWS as if you are better than them. You target Obama and Socialism. How about Capitalism? It is as bad, right? No form of government will be truelly successful unless God intervenes and only under his divine guidance. And would people call that dictatorship? How do you know that God did not pick and is not using Obama? How do you know that Socialism with a little change and with theism will not work?

God Bless America!

 

[mgoforth]

It seems to me like you want the divide. If you belong only to one party and hate the other ones, then you contribute to the division of these United States of America. You distance yourself from the OWS as if you are better than them. You target Obama and Socialism. How about Capitalism? It is as bad, right? No form of government will be truelly successful unless God intervenes and only under his divine guidance. And would people call that dictatorship? How do you know that God did not pick and is not using Obama? How do you know that Socialism with a little change and with theism will not work?

God Bless America!

Can either political party really solve this issue, when the problem seems to be innate human selfishness on BOTH sides? The left wants to redistribute money against the will of the rich. Seems wrong to me. The right wants to be left alone so they can continue to not share with the poor. Also seems wrong. Jesus wants the people on the right to be more generous, I have no doubt about that, because He wants us all to be more generous. The right wing currently controls most of the money in our country…I think that’s fairly obvious. But none of that give the left wing the right to steal it through taxes and redistribute through government spending.

I think the only true and lasting solution would be for rich members of the right to decide on their own to distribute their wealth (not all of it, but most) to the poor, whether the poor are Republican or Democrat. Higher taxes on the wealthy don’t achieve the goal, which believe it or not isn’t the equitable distribution of wealth. The ultimate goal is the salvation of souls on both sides, and until all the greed on both sides stops and there are no more rich or poor because all is shared (and no I’m not talking about Communism people, I’m talking about sharing because YOU choose to, not the government!!), then we will have what we have now…which is adults acting like small children fighting over a toy.

I don’t expect this conversion of hearts to happen across society, but I pray it will happen to many rich and poor individuals.

 

[je333]

Can either political party really solve this issue, when the problem seems to be innate human selfishness on BOTH sides? The left wants to redistribute money against the will of the rich. Seems wrong to me. The right wants to be left alone so they can continue to not share with the poor. Also seems wrong. Jesus wants the people on the right to be more generous, I have no doubt about that, because He wants us all to be more generous. The right wing currently controls most of the money in our country…I think that’s fairly obvious. But none of that give the left wing the right to steal it through taxes and redistribute through government spending.

I think the only true and lasting solution would be for rich members of the right to decide on their own to distribute their wealth (not all of it, but most) to the poor, whether the poor are Republican or Democrat. Higher taxes on the wealthy don’t achieve the goal, which believe it or not isn’t the equitable distribution of wealth. The ultimate goal is the salvation of souls on both sides, and until all the greed on both sides stops and there are no more rich or poor because all is shared (and no I’m not talking about Communism people, I’m talking about sharing because YOU choose to, not the government!!), then we will have what we have now…which is adults acting like small children fighting over a toy.

I don’t expect this conversion of hearts to happen across society, but I pray it will happen to many rich and poor individuals.

Matthew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.”

The right wing controls most of the money? Aren’t they mostly Christians? This a great test for them if they truely believe and follow Jesus’ teachings not only thru reading and knowing the scripture but doing it in action.

In any moment God will switch the situation and the rich men will be begging from the poor men.

 

[mgoforth]

Matthew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.”

The right wing controls most of the money? Aren’t they mostly Christians? This a great test for them if they truely believe and follow Jesus’ teachings not only thru reading and knowing the scripture but doing it in action.

In any moment God will switch the situation and the rich men will be begging from the poor men.

Having great wealth and then choosing to give it away is certainly one of the hardest tests any human being can face as the verse from Matthew 19:24 makes clear. It would be better to never be tempted with riches in the first place, than to become rich and fail that test!

"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

 

[je333]

Having great wealth and then choosing to give it away is certainly one of the hardest tests any human being can face as the verse from Matthew 19:24 makes clear. It would be better to never be tempted with riches in the first place, than to become rich and fail that test!

"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

The wealthy man’s position as well as the poor man’s position in life are both blessings. The wealthy man is blessed with abundance so that he can have more to give to the needy. He is given an opportunity to practice Jesus’ teachings. Let us pray that all wealthy men will relinquish all their wealth, give it all to the poor, follow Jesus and become saints!!!

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Having great wealth and then choosing to give it away is certainly one of the hardest tests any human being can face as the verse from Matthew 19:24 makes clear. It would be better to never be tempted with riches in the first place, than to become rich and fail that test!

"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41

Generally speaking, wealth isn’t something you “have”.

Wealth is generally something you gain by working hard and/or working smart.

Critics seem to overlook that hard work was part of the equation.

Seems that critics don’t want to work. True, there are no guarantees; if you work, things may or may not work out. But even Steve Jobs started out in a garage.

Unless, there is crony socialism, crony tribalism, or crony “capitalism” … although the expression “crony capitalism” is kind of an oxymoron. If you are a capitalist in the American use of the term, then you gain your money by saving and investing in a competitive environment. You either provide goods and services that people willingly and voluntarily pay their money for, or you are toast.

The “crony” part is when some bureaucrat or politician uses their government offices to make decisions in your favor to the detriment of society.

In any event, you don’t “have” wealth.