Occupy Wall Street?

[mgoforth]

Generally speaking, wealth isn’t something you “have”.

Wealth is generally something you gain by working hard and/or working smart.

Critics seem to overlook that hard work was part of the equation.

Seems that critics don’t want to work. True, there are no guarantees; if you work, things may or may not work out. But even Steve Jobs started out in a garage.

Unless, there is crony socialism, crony tribalism, or crony “capitalism” … although the expression “crony capitalism” is kind of an oxymoron. If you are a capitalist in the American use of the term, then you gain your money by saving and investing in a competitive environment. You either provide goods and services that people willingly and voluntarily pay their money for, or you are toast.

The “crony” part is when some bureaucrat or politician uses their government offices to make decisions in your favor to the detriment of society.

In any event, you don’t “have” wealth.

Hi Monte! Still hoping you’ll have time to post the chapter and verse of that parable you were telling me about.

I believe this idea of hard work has already been touched on, multiple times, in this thread and can’t recall anyone condemning hard work. Jesus, the apostles and many if not all the saints were hard workers, so by itself hard work is obviously a good thing. What you’re refusing to acknowledge is the other side of the equation, after the rich person does their hard work…when they choose to keep all (or most of) that money for themselves and ignore others who might really need it for basic survival.

Your signature tells me you’ll continue to toe the Tea Party line that any amount of wealth must be good because hard work is good. But I honestly pray that you’ll reconsider and see how easy it is to refute that logic.

Whatever wealth a rich man freely gives to the poor in this life, hasn’t the Lord promised to reward him with 100x more in heavenly riches?

 

[je333]

The rich men as well as the poor men’s positions in life are blessings.

THE TOP 1%(who are blessed with abundance) are in a great position and is being given the opportunity to reliquish all their wealth, give it all to the poor, follow Jesus and become great SAINTS.

If those blessings of abundance are not distributed or shared, they become a curse that equates to more times in purgatory.

The rich men will be begging for mercy from the poor men!!!

 

[Jonatello]

Generally speaking, wealth isn’t something you “have”.

Wealth is generally something you gain by working hard and/or working smart.

Critics seem to overlook that hard work was part of the equation.

Seems that critics don’t want to work. True, there are no guarantees; if you work, things may or may not work out. But even Steve Jobs started out in a garage.

Unless, there is crony socialism, crony tribalism, or crony “capitalism” … although the expression “crony capitalism” is kind of an oxymoron. If you are a capitalist in the American use of the term, then you gain your money by saving and investing in a competitive environment. You either provide goods and services that people willingly and voluntarily pay their money for, or you are toast.

The “crony” part is when some bureaucrat or politician uses their government offices to make decisions in your favor to the detriment of society.

In any event, you don’t “have” wealth.

you speak as though the presence of hard work makes everything right. “He who works hardest for his own gain is most righteous and deserving.”

if everyone is happy just easily picking abundant fruit from a beautiful garden while spending their time singing dancing storytelling learning helping each other etc, but i work way harder than them and build a stone wall and moat around most of the trees, forcing them into scarcity, stress, and harder labor to survive, how does that make me more deserving? i think it would make me a jerk.

the squirrel who works three times as hard as the other squirrels to get almost all the acorns before the other squirrels manage to collect their normal happy livable amount deserves all those acorns?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

you speak as though the presence of hard work makes everything right. “He who works hardest for his own gain is most righteous and deserving.”

if everyone is happy just easily picking abundant fruit from a beautiful garden while spending their time singing dancing storytelling learning helping each other etc, but i work way harder than them and build a stone wall and moat around most of the trees, forcing them into scarcity, stress, and harder labor to survive, how does that make me more deserving? i think it would make me a jerk.

the squirrel who works three times as hard as the other squirrels to get almost all the acorns before the other squirrels manage to collect their normal happy livable amount deserves all those acorns?

freemoneyfinance.com/2006/06/the_bible_work_.html

You can rake leaves with a toothpick, also. Not a helpful solution to the job of raking leaves.

Sometimes … once in a while … common sense is called for.

 

[Jonatello]

freemoneyfinance.com/2006/06/the_bible_work_.html

You can rake leaves with a toothpick, also. Not a helpful solution to the job of raking leaves.

Sometimes … once in a while … common sense is called for.

how is this relevant at all?

first of all, the context of this passage is not universal. it is a situation where the work in question is needed for survival (not the type of hyper-ambitious activity of the examples i gave), the work is available, and the means to produce is available.

but secondly, where did i say people shouldn’t work?

i said that “hard work” doesn’t magically make greed righteous.

hard work is only a virtue if its appropriate and serves the common good. its not a magical virtue in itself that makes any endeavor righteous.

if you work hard at something that makes life harder for others, you cannot claim “hard work” as a defense.

 

[mgoforth]

how is this relevant at all?

first of all, the context of this passage is not universal. it is a situation where the work in question is needed for survival (not the type of hyper-ambitious activity of the examples i gave), the work is available, and the means to produce is available.

but secondly, where did i say people shouldn’t work?

i said that “hard work” doesn’t magically make greed righteous.

hard work is only a virtue if its appropriate and serves the common good. its not a magical virtue in itself that makes any endeavor righteous.

if you work hard at something that makes life harder for others, you cannot claim “hard work” as a defense.

I think Monte’s heart is fairly set on this issue, for now at least. I pray that God will find a more effective way than we have to show him that greed isn’t cancelled out by hard work. Perhaps he’s the type of person who would need to literally live a poor person’s life for a while before he could understand their point of view. Either way our words - and any of the Lord’s words that don’t reinforce his desired worldview - seem to be falling on (intentionally) deaf ears.

 

[estesbob]

I think Monte’s heart is fairly set on this issue, for now at least. I pray that God will find a more effective way than we have to show him that greed isn’t cancelled out by hard work. Perhaps he’s the type of person who would need to literally live a poor person’s life for a while before he could understand their point of view. Either way our words - and any of the Lord’s words that don’t reinforce his desired worldview - seem to be falling on (intentionally) deaf ears.

I think, like Monte, Ill stick with the teachings of the Church rather than the personal opinions of anonymous internet poster who have little or no grasp of Church teaching.

 

[mgoforth]

I think, like Monte, Ill stick with the teachings of the Church rather than the personal opinions of anonymous internet poster who have little or no grasp of Church teaching.

Please correct me, Estesbob. I’d be happy to discuss this issue with you.

Maybe we could start by examining the Church teaching you’re alluding to? Which one did you have in mind specifically?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

FWIW … for what it’s worth … from that Web site I posted:

The Bible: Work or Don’t Eat

One thing I love about the Bible is that it takes a hard stand on people who try to just “get by” and feed off others without doing a lick of work themselves. Here’s my favorite verse on this topic:

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10

Yep, don’t work, don’t eat. I think that says it all.

Notice that it doesn’t say that those who CAN NOT work should not eat. No, we should have compassion on and help out those people. But if someone can work, yet WILL NOT work, then he’s left to the consequences of his actions (or inactions in this case).

Here are a couple other verses on this same line of thinking:

Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:4

How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest – and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11

So get out there and work! Or find a way to survive without eating.

Yeah, and even though it’s tough to find a job right now, we still have to keep looking for a job or start a business to bring in money to pay our bills and buy food and work like God is our boss (Ecclesiasties 9:10, Colossians 3:23-25)

This text isn’t just about “work” or paying bills, it’s also about busy unproductive people as well. You working to pay bills I understand, but do you really NEED a new car and do you NEED some of those bills?

God is the judge of all thing.Just think about it,your body have to perform some type of function to be able to eat.And any type of function is work.The price for not doing any work to live is death.God has already judged all things.All man has to do is to obey him.And that is to do unto other as you will have them to do unto you.When you do this you are letting God come into this earth through you.We are not justice,but we can do justice.God himself is justice,and God himself is the judge.In the bible it says,in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.So God is justice and he also is the word judge.And these words works through us in the earth.So that is why we are not to judge and that is why Jesus did not condemn the women that was brought to him.So we can only do God’s word but we can’t be his word until we do it.

I am leaving my husband because he will not work he refuses to work…and he still wants to be controlling over me and the money I make as a teacher. And he is suppose to be a preacher

“If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” (2 Thessalonians 3:10)
Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. (Proverbs 10:4)

How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest – and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. (Proverbs 6:9-11)

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)

Interesting take on this to prove your point but here is the truth:

The ‘REAL’ definition of work from a Biblical sense is a man working the ground. Planting and harvesting and feeding himself. Well, you have to pay property tax in today’s world so a man can NOT just ‘work’ the land - because a property tax lien will remove him from that property. They have taken away the original conditions that this verse is applicable to so how can you apply it in today’s world.?

As a matter of fact, food stamps should be given by the government to anyone who asks, since the government makes you pay property tax just to own land. YOu have to pay a tax just to plant your own food and feed yourself. That’s a travesty.

And the last commenter obviously has no clue what the Bible teaches and has no clue how to apply its wonderful, truthful teachings in today’s world. You can have your food stamps. But I will not be labeled an infidel.

Amen to that. However, I still agree that if you don’t work, you shouldn’t eat. One day God will judge government for all the lies and schemes. But till then, we just have to live to the best of our ability.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 (Contemporary English Version)

10 We also gave you the rule that if you don’t work, you don’t eat.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

That business about not judging others:

bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

Matthew 7:3-5 actually

And this one is also very good:

hubcrafter.hubpages.com/hub/Christian-Beliefs-Christians-and-Sinners

The Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18: 9-14)

 

[mgoforth]

That business about not judging others:

bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

Matthew 7:3-5 actually

Ok, a couple followup questions.

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:3-5

Doesn’t this parable tell us not to correct the mistakes of another, unless we’re willing to work on correcting our own mistakes first? The last verse says plain as day that once we’re seeing clearly that we should help our brother get that speck out!

I’m interested to understand how you interpret it.

I’ve heard the argument that since we’ll never get all the debris out of our eyes in this lifetime, that we have no right to ever point out specks to anyone else…but that just seems to conflict with so many other verses:

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart, but correct him openly, lest thou incur sin through him” Leviticus 19:17

“He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” James 5:20

“If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him” Luke 17:3

“Them that sin, reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear” 1 Timothy 5:20

“Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine” 2 Timothy 4:2

“Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” Galatians 6:1

**“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” ** Proverbs 12:15

I’ll confess that I don’t always have the spirit of meekness in my responses to sin, and that’s one of the logs I’ve been working to remove from my own eye.

There are also some sobering verses about the type of person who repeatedly refuses to listen to honest criticism:

“A fool receiveth not the words of prudence” (Proverbs 18:12)

“A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such a one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment” Titus 3:11

…and Pope Pius XII also said, "One cannot make peace at the cost of truth, and especially not at the cost of divine truth. This would imply an offense of God."

 

[mgoforth]

The Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18: 9-14)

"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14

So I think I see the root of our disagreement (maybe). By offering advice to potential sinners, am I automatically saying that I’m better than them? I don’t feel that I’m a better person than they are, but is that the way it comes across to you, Monte? If so, I apologize. Like I said in the other response, I probably need to work on being more charitable in my delivery.

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop offering the advice or pointing out sins to my fellow Christians. I read somewhere that in our modern world, especially in America, it’s popular to add an 11th Commandment - “thou shalt not judge”…or in other words, “Mind your own @#&% business, buddy!” Those are the words of Satan trying to drive wedges between us.

 

[mgoforth]

FWIW … for what it’s worth … from that Web site I posted:

The Bible: Work or Don’t Eat

…

My response to this website would be what I think I already said before: Hard work is good!

But I also don’t think it answers the question about being rich. This website is talking about lazy people, not rich people. It’s only looking at one side of the money issue, or I guess you could read it to say “as long as I’m hard-working, then it’s alright to want to keep a lot of money for myself”? Being good in one area of our lives doesn’t give us a free pass to be sinful in another though. It would be wrong to work 80 hour weeks and think that I have the right to commit the sin of murder…so why does working 80 hour weeks give us the right to commit any other sin, like greed?

On the other hand, if you were interpreting the website to say most people who ask for charity are lazy…well I don’t know if that’s necessarily true…either way how does that justify being greedy? It doesn’t. If a rich person didn’t want to reward lazy people, he could instead give his wealth to cancer research, or feeding orphans, or even the Church! I think in our modern day, with the connections on the internet, if that rich person can’t find enough deserving people or groups for his money, then it’s probably because he hasn’t looked hard enough…so perhaps he works hard for the things he cares about (himself), but not the things he doesn’t (others)?

Let me know what you think.

 

[Rdunbar123]

Actually Occupy Wall Street is full of kids who got worked over because of the college system. They’re angry for several good and legitimate reasons. First off, colleges have ruined countless peoples’ lives by charging so much that someone who plans on going has to get countless student loans and once they graduate college, there’s no garuntee that they’ll get a job and now they have a debt that they will more than likely never pay off for their entire life and even if they go bankrupt, they will continue to be hounded. The second reason they’re angry is by how our federal government has completely destroyed the value of the dollar by constantly printing out more money. (You can see the value of a dollar simply by looking at the price of gold because the value of gold never changes.) The third reason they’re angry is because of the corruption in corporations. There’s no competition anymore. There’s now only big name corporations who completely destroy any trace of competition whenever they show up in a town or city. The reason these corporations can do this is because they have low prices. And how do they have low prices? Through cheap labor that they get in other countries where there’s terrible conditions, child labor, and unfair pay (i.e. less than a dollar an hour). The fifth reason these kids are angry (and btw, there aren’t just kids there, there’s also military now who are equally upset with the way the things are going) is because of what’s going on with this “war on terror.” This war is no longer about what it used to be about. Soldiers are sharing their stories to where all they do when they get over in the Middle East is guard big oil rigs. Day and night, they guard oil rigs, and they don’t even know why. And now since all of this has happened, police are unnecesarily man-handling protestors who are peacefully standing on the sidewalks. I watched a video where three young girls were standing and then a cop randomly walks up to them and sprays them in the eyes with pepper spray. I’ve also seen several videos where protestors are thrown to the ground and then pressed down by the cop’s knee, which is located on their neck. Personally, I thought cops were supposed to be protecting us, not beating up our kids.

Anyone who borrows money should know if they have a reasonable chance of getting a job in their chosen area of interest when they graduate. When I started college i wanted to major in English. After talking to some guideance counselers and doing some reasearch I determined I would likely starve. I ended up a chemical engineer which I am eternally grateful for. If you borrow $100,000 to major in ancient chinese art history, prepare to starve and don’t expect sympathy from me.

 

[Jonatello]

Anyone who borrows money should know if they have a reasonable chance of getting a job in their chosen area of interest when they graduate. When I started college i wanted to major in English. After talking to some guideance counselers and doing some reasearch I determined I would likely starve. I ended up a chemical engineer which I am eternally grateful for. If you borrow $100,000 to major in ancient chinese art history, prepare to starve and don’t expect sympathy from me.

So your attitude basically is society should stop having English experts and Historians, since pursuing these careers is stupid and people should know better.

wow, talk about flushing civilization down the drain for mammon

Sorry but I’d much rather consider this unacceptable and work to diagnose and change whatever is causing so many important roles in civilization to become financially prohibitive to fill.

In the meantime, it would be terrible if all these fields of human contribution just disappeared or lost a generation, so how can we in good conscience discourage aspiring linguists and historians and theologians to follow their God-given gifts and dreams?

 

[RCconvert7]

All I hear on this thread is conservative fiscal ideology, a great deal of which is not in line with Catholic Social Teaching. Anti union, anti minimum wage, a belief that the rights of corporations to make money trump the rights of workers. Caritas in Veritate is clearly a pro-union document.

I will come out and say it definitively: Capitalism is not compatible with the values of Christ. for an amazing, full book argument for why this is true, read “Following Christ in a Consumer Society: The Spirituality of Cultural Resistance” by Fr. John Francis Kavanaugh. It outlines how what he calls the “Commodity Model” of human relationship has trumped the Christ-Centered “Personal Model.” The Commodity Model teaches us that human beings are to be related and valued by their ability or inability to produce wealth. It gradually influences us to only relate to each other as consumable goods, and inversely, encourages us to feel human emotions for inanimate objects (an example I saw on a friend’s umbrella yesterday: “Love. It’s what makes a Subaru a Subaru.”)

So, before you jump to conclusions, this book isn’t against making money. It’s against the idea that unfettered capitalism should be the penultimate value in our society, and it shows how the general worldview of capitalistic thinking has poisoned even the minds of many who consider themselves faithful Christians. Kavanaugh’s antidote to this is developing communities, a prayer life, and returning to the Church as the center of community life, rather than the Mall.

I would like to comment on the chart someone posted comparing arrests, costs, etc for OWS vs Tea Party. First off, the # of days thing is not an apples to apples comparison. The Tea Party is a movement. It has had rallies, day trips, afternoon demonstrations, and such. The OWS is a Sit Down Strike, so to speak. It’s mode of operation is to settle in a place and remain there, as its primary means of communication. Therefore, saying that the Tea Party has been in existence for X number of days longer than the OWS has been camped outside non-stop in a park in Manhattan doesn’t really mean the same thing in terms of what could happen. If the Tea Party had decided to drop everything they were doing and take a “Hell no, we won’t go” approach, I’m sure # of arrests, costs, and such would be comparable. I also think that there would be MORE violence at a long-term tea party protest, as tea partiers tend to be more armed, which would also, I think, elicit a stronger reaction from law enforcement and likely result in more costs as well, but that is pure speculation on my part. Addressing the idea that the number of arrests somehow reflects on the moral compass of those involved in the protest, I think, is disingenuous as well. The arrest rate reflects the harshness which law enforcement has reacted to a situation with which they do not know how to properly accommodate. It is primarily a reflection of the fact that less-than-savory elements will ALWAYS gravitate toward places where lots of people are congregating. Anyway, just my 2c

 

[Captain_America]

I agree about the conservative economic cranking that goes on here. Libertarianism is nonsense. Crony capitalism—capitalism in which you get to keep the upside, but make taxpayers pay for your costs—isn’t real capitalism. There are so many fictions in libertarianism that it hurts to have to recount them all.

Note: this DOESN’T mean Captain America is Keynesian. That would be a false dichotomy.

I believe the people doing the Occupy movement represent broad swaths of the American public, many of whom are working and cannot attend, although their hearts are there. (In other words, do not let yourself be distracted by kids with beards, and a handful of miscellaneous goofy types that are jumping into this).

People want capitalism to work, but they want equity. . .and an end to all the free love of Wall Street insider incest.

 

[JimG]

I also oppose crony capitalism—by which I mean a capitalism in which favored companies are rewarded with the favors of the government and the capital of the taxpayers. I just don’t think that deploying mobs in the streets is going to help anything, except perhaps bring on chaos and anarchy. And sometimes I suspect that those things—chaos and anarchy—rather than reform, are the real goals of those mobs.

In any case, the most immediate threat to the nation is not Wall Street or even crony capitalism, but the mounting U.S. deficit. Greece has had to take austerity measures in order to deal with its deficit and hopefully avoid default, now Italy will be doing the same. And the U.S. will soon follow unless real and substantial steps are taken immediately to reduce the deficit (not merely reduce its rate of growth.)

I would like to think that we can grow our way out of this problem, but that seems unlikely, at least until deficit reduction has begun in earnest. The bad thing is that no matter which course of action we take, this nation will no doubt have to undergo austerity measures. And by austerity, I mean the same thing that the Greeks are objecting to: we won’t be able to get as much from government as we would like.

If we reduce the deficit and raise taxes, obviously debt reduction means the government won’t be able to give citizens as much in the way of benefits as they would like.

But if we forego debt reduction and spend (i.e. print) money to stimulate the economy, that only adds to the debt and hastens the day the debt bubble will burst—which will mean even worse austerity.

There are no good choices. Tax the rich all we want, but it won’t be sufficient to solve the debt problem. Firing all the Wall Street CEO’s won’t help.

 

[RCconvert7]

The problem I have with the focus on deficits and on austerity measures is that they punish the people who didn’t cause the problem. I find it interesting that basically the same people who called for the govt to spend 200 billion dollars on TARP (banking sector) are now the people saying that debt is too high and debt ratings will have to be downgraded (rating agencies). Let’s not mince words… these are all the same folks. They first asked us to go into a bunch of debt so we could give it to them and keep their bad investments afloat. Now, we’re being asked to give up government services for the poor in a really bad economy because we can’t afford to borrow money anymore. That’s crazy. It was ok to borrow in order to hand it over to the rich who caused this economic crisis no strings attached, but we don’t have enough to make sure we provide essential services to the poor. Absurd. It’s the same kind of thing that the leaders of my corporation do when they say they can only offer the cashiers 4c an hour raises but give themselves 20% raises

And since we mentioned Greece, I think it’s telling about the halls of power that the new Prime Minister is an unelected banking expert educated in the USA.

I’d also like to address the person who talked about the “don’t work, don’t eat” thing. Someone else mentioned that by work, Paul meant agriculture. It’s even deeper than that, I think. In the ancient world, there was no such thing as “unemployment” the way we understand it. People were not dependent on “employers” to provide them with an income. In those days, the man who didn’t work was either the man who didn’t WANT to eat or the man that was physically incapable of doing work. Increased productivity in agriculture ALWAYS required increased labor to produce it

Another interpretation of Paul’s comment which I have heard by certain denominations is as an argument against professional clergy. Paul uses himself as an example, and his tent making business, which he does to pay for his ministry. I do not agree that we shouldn’t have professional clergy, but one could see how this passage convicts priests just as much as the unemployed.

 

[Rdunbar123]

So your attitude basically is society should stop having English experts and Historians, since pursuing these careers is stupid and people should know better.

wow, talk about flushing civilization down the drain for mammon

Sorry but I’d much rather consider this unacceptable and work to diagnose and change whatever is causing so many important roles in civilization to become financially prohibitive to fill.

In the meantime, it would be terrible if all these fields of human contribution just disappeared or lost a generation, so how can we in good conscience discourage aspiring linguists and historians and theologians to follow their God-given gifts and dreams?

Didn’t say that. I am glad that I had my English teachers in High School. great people, but how many does society need? To Me history and literature are passions, engineering is a job. You act as though if you choose a technical field you abandon your love for other things. I was just pointing out that you should have realistic expectations about what you can borrow and afford to pay off. I didn’t expect someone else to subsidize my passion, as I don’t expect to subsidize someone elses.