Occupy Wall Street?

[JUAN_DIEGO]

Put it this way, there are many people getting malignant diseases or aching arthritis pains from working in the fields or in production companies. Not only that, but they get paid the minimum which isn’t enough for their families. These people are always getting kicked out of where they live because their hard work isn’t enough. Then you have the bosses just sit back and order people around but get paid bank. My friend, the land belongs to those who work it and produce something useful out of it. Native societies lived great without this Satanic Capitalism in the past. Where do you stand?

 

[Ella]

Juan Diego, you’ll get labeled a communist, or at least a socialist, for suggesting that we have Satanic Capitalism going on here in the U.S. or anywhere for that matter. Frankly it’s not a helpful term, it’s too sensationalistic.

estesbob, this article has some answers for you of why it matters:
businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

 

[estesbob]

Put it this way, there are many people getting malignant diseases or aching arthritis pains from working in the fields or in production companies. Not only that, but they get paid the minimum which isn’t enough for their families. These people are always getting kicked out of where they live because their hard work isn’t enough. Then you have the bosses just sit back and order people around but get paid bank. My friend, the land belongs to those who work it and produce something useful out of it. Native societies lived great without this Satanic Capitalism in the past. Where do you stand?

I am still at a loss as to how much other people makes should bother me in the least.

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

I know what I’ll be labeled as but hey the issues are real and present so that’s enough to support what I say. Search up Masons and what they are all about. Get informed and wake up.

 

[Ella]

I am still at a loss as to how much other people makes should bother me in the least.

Because, when enough people have nothing, and the 1% have everything, we will be in an oligarchy not a democratic republic, and all of your rights will go out the window. It’s the situation that spawned the French and the American Revolutions, and started the whole idea of the separation of powers, and checks and balances to keep the power in the hands of the people and out of the hands and pockets of the few. Frankly an oligarchy is as un-American as anything gets.

BTW I asked a few days ago how people’s retirement investments, housing values, and so forth are doing. The 1% are making money by doing things, oftentimes immoral and illegal things, that are causing the rest of us to lose the value of safety nets like 401ks and IRAs and house values… without having any punishment for their behavior. How does that not bother you?

 

[estesbob]

Because, when enough people have nothing, and the 1% have everything, we will be in an oligarchy not a democratic republic, and all of your rights will go out the window. It’s the situation that spawned the French and the American Revolutions, and started the whole idea of the separation of powers, and checks and balances to keep the power in the hands of the people and out of the hands and pockets of the few. Frankly an oligarchy is as un-American as anything gets.

BTW I asked a few days ago how people’s retirement investments, housing values, and so forth are doing. The 1% are making money by doing things, oftentimes immoral and illegal things, that are causing the rest of us to lose the value of safety nets like 401ks and IRAs and house values… without having any punishment for their behavior. How does that not bother you?

So what do you suggest we do to the punish the 1% for their sucess?

My housing value and investments are doing just fine-less than they were 4 years ago but much higher than they were 10 years ago.

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

You call that success? wow…

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

I agree with Ella btw

 

[Ella]

So what do you suggest we do to the punish the 1% for their sucess?

My housing value and investments are doing just fine-less than they were 4 years ago but much higher than they were 10 years ago.

Well, we could do what our fore-fathers did in the U.S. and revolt, and start another government. Not being an ocean away from the current government would make it much more difficult.

We could do like the French and set up guillotines and chop off heads.

BUT a better thing to do would be to re-instate laws like Glass-Steagall, and create new legislation that prevents things from happening like Bear Sterns and Enron. Make it illegal to bundle together things like bad housing loans whilst hiding them with what look like good housing loans, and speculate on them in the market, with only the few at the top knowing that the product they’re selling is based on fraud. BTW wall-street is starting to do the same sort of thing with bad car loans. That’s just a couple of things we could do, and I think we should do them. But make no mistake. We dismiss the growing number of people who are unhappy at our peril. If we do nothing to correct the economic and social inequities that are challenging us we will only make a revolt of some kind more likely. Thus history repeats itself again. THAT is why it should matter to you.

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

Well, we could do what our fore-fathers did in the U.S. and revolt, and start another government. Not being an ocean away from the current government would make it much more difficult.

We could do like the French and set up guillotines and chop off heads.

BUT a better thing to do would be to re-instate laws like Glass-Steagall, and create new legislation that prevents things from happening like Bear Sterns and Enron. Make it illegal to bundle together things like bad housing loans whilst hiding them with what look like good housing loans, and speculate on them in the market, with only the few at the top knowing that the product they’re selling is based on fraud. BTW wall-street is starting to do the same sort of thing with bad car loans. That’s just a couple of things we could do, and I think we should do them. But make no mistake. We dismiss the growing number of people who are unhappy at our peril. If we do nothing to correct the economic and social inequities that are challenging us we will only make a revolt of some kind more likely. Thus history repeats itself again. THAT is why it should matter to you.

Well stated!

 

[estesbob]

Well, we could do what our fore-fathers did in the U.S. and revolt, and start another government. Not being an ocean away from the current government would make it much more difficult.

We could do like the French and set up guillotines and chop off heads.

BUT a better thing to do would be to re-instate laws like Glass-Steagall, and create new legislation that prevents things from happening like Bear Sterns and Enron. Make it illegal to bundle together things like bad housing loans whilst hiding them with what look like good housing loans, and speculate on them in the market, with only the few at the top knowing that the product they’re selling is based on fraud. BTW wall-street is starting to do the same sort of thing with bad car loans. That’s just a couple of things we could do, and I think we should do them. But make no mistake. We dismiss the growing number of people who are unhappy at our peril. If we do nothing to correct the economic and social inequities that are challenging us we will only make a revolt of some kind more likely. Thus history repeats itself again. THAT is why it should matter to you.

But nothing you suggest will adress the so called problem of some people making “too much money” or having “too much wealth”. Of course i dont see it as a problem at all.

 

[JUAN_DIEGO]

You don’t see it as a problem because maybe it doesn’t affect you but that’s a little selfish.

 

[Ella]

But nothing you suggest will adress the so called problem of some people making “too much money” or having “too much wealth”. Of course i dont see it as a problem at all.

It will address that because the way the 1% make money will no longer be a politer form of robbery and con-man tricks like the real estate bubble, or the bubble that burst in the 20’s and started the Great Depression.

Another thing that will help with that is reformation of lobbying laws so that the influence of our government’s decisions is not driven only by the richest people. That was something the original checks and balances were meant to prevent.

 

[Leegal]

I’m interested in people here’s views of the Occupy Wall Street movement. It seems, with the exception of some Italian Communists hijacking the Rome rally, that the movement is peaceful, largely law-abiding, and has as its aims some form of distributist approach, in which moral values would trump greed in the regulation of the market. They are extremely disorganized and incoherent, but there is a groundswell of argument in favor of some kind of decentralized control of the wealth.

It also seems to me that the Occupy Wall Street movement and the Tea Party basically want the same thing - the Tea Party want to see the Federal Government give powers back to the State and local level, while OWS want to see big multinational corporations broken up so that they have to pay attention to local needs instead of corporate profit. If someone could harness both, they would be highly electable, but they would also be the President who destroyed America, by breaking up everything that holds the Nation together, turning it into a loose federation of autonomous communities - within a decade there would be nothing that a pro-life prayer-in-public-schools Texas would have in common with a Massachussets where pot was legal and handguns were not.

I guess there are two questions here - what do people make of Occupy Wall Street, and is there anything that holds America together anymore?

I live here in NYC. The protest has descended into some violence and criminal activity. Short term prisoners from Rikers Island, upon release, are going there because there’s been free food and they have no other place to go There have been assaults and there have been some sexual assaults and a rape and a man was arrested for these crimes. Word is that not everyone is there for the original purpose which seems to now now been lost. A number of businesses are supporting the protestors with free food, but a number of businesses that need the traffic are being harmed. In fact, one food establishment had to lay off 23 workers because of lack of business. Other establishments are losing money because the customers are just not coming by any longer wanting to avoid the area. Police attention is being directed to this area, so there has been an increase in shootings in other areas. We have enjoyed over a decade of decreased crime which is now being chipped away.

My objection to this protest is that it has lost it’s original purpose; other personal agendas are at play and the protest is being used beyond man’s disagreement with how our government handled the bailouts, the banks and the collapse of the mortgage industry.

My bigger objection is that I have heard that the protest was organized and originally funded by a group out of Vancouver Canada. My other objection is that the protest infringes on the rights of those who merely live and work in the area – the right to life peacefully, without interference, and to go about their daily lives. So, while they have a right to protest – there are others who have a right to not be infringed upon by the protest. The legal test is “time”, “place” and "manner. At least 2 of these – "time and “manner” --are being violated by this protest, IMHO.

It’s time for them to go home. I see nothing more to be accomplished. The true test will be November 2012, but giving how NY votes (and this a place like no other part of the country), I don’t see much change for NY.

I support the proposition of less federal government, power back to the states and a strict interpretation by the Courts of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution which makes me an aberration.

 

[Ella]

Also estesbob I’d love to get some advice from you about what kind of investments are good to consider right now, because I’ve found nothing in the mutual fund or CD or bond markets doing very well. That would actually be a good thread for all the CAF… some financial discussions that might bring some hope and help.

 

[estesbob]

Juan Diego, you’ll get labeled a communist, or at least a socialist, for suggesting that we have Satanic Capitalism going on here in the U.S. or anywhere for that matter. Frankly it’s not a helpful term, it’s too sensationalistic.

estesbob, this article has some answers for you of why it matters:
businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

Also estesbob I’d love to get some advice from you about what kind of investments are good to consider right now, because I’ve found nothing in the mutual fund or CD or bond markets doing very well. That would actually be a good thread for all the CAF… some financial discussions that might bring some hope and help.

Against forum rules I believe but I always invest for the long term and don’t care much about current market fluctuations

 

[Ella]

I live here in NYC. The protest has descended into some violence and criminal activity. Short term prisoners from Rikers Island, upon release, are going there because there’s been free food and they have no other place to go There have been assaults and there have been some sexual assaults and a rape and a man was arrested for these crimes. Word is that not everyone is there for the original purpose which seems to now now been lost. A number of businesses are supporting the protestors with free food, but a number of businesses that need the traffic are being harmed. In fact, one food establishment had to lay off 23 workers because of lack of business. Other establishments are losing money because the customers are just not coming by any longer wanting to avoid the area. Police attention is being directed to this area, so there has been an increase in shootings in other areas. We have enjoyed over a decade of decreased crime which is now being chipped away.

My objection to this protest is that it has lost it’s original purpose; other personal agendas are at play and the protest is being used beyond man’s disagreement with how our government handled the bailouts, the banks and the collapse of the mortgage industry.

My bigger objection is that I have heard that the protest was organized and originally funded by a group out of Vancouver Canada. My other objection is that the protest infringes on the rights of those who merely live and work in the area – the right to life peacefully, without interference, and to go about their daily lives. So, while they have a right to protest – there are others who have a right to not be infringed upon by the protest. The legal test is “time”, “place” and "manner. At least 2 of these – "time and “manner” --are being violated by this protest, IMHO.

It’s time for them to go home. I see nothing more to be accomplished. The true test will be November 2012, but giving how NY votes (and this a place like no other part of the country), I don’t see much change for NY.

I support the proposition of less federal government, power back to the states and a strict interpretation by the Courts of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution which makes me an aberration.

I wouldn’t want a mess in my front yard either. I am not unsympathetic to your situation. I don’t think people are going to just go away though. They might not assemble as they are now but they are not going to just go away and be happy either.

I am curious how less federal government will help when the lax federal government we have had has spawned such failures as the housing bubble and the collapse of the banking industry. Now some are going to blame Freddie and Fannie for the housing bubble. But those bad loans would not have been speculated on in the first place if they weren’t bundled up and hidden with good ones by - criminals, frankly. Who as far as I know have never been punished or had their ill - gotten profits taken from them for that little scheme.

 

[estesbob]

I wouldn’t want a mess in my front yard either. I am not unsympathetic to your situation. I don’t think people are going to just go away though. They might not assemble as they are now but they are not going to just go away and be happy either.

I am curious how less federal government will help when the lax federal government we have had has spawned such failures as the housing bubble and the collapse of the banking industry. Now some are going to blame Freddie and Fannie for the housing bubble. But those bad loans would not have been speculated on in the first place if they weren’t bundled up and hidden with good ones by - criminals, frankly. Who as far as I know have never been punished or had their ill - gotten profits taken from them for that little scheme.

The problem was not bundling loans The problem was the Govt forcing racial and economic quotas on lenders.

 

[Ella]

The problem was not bundling loans The problem was the Govt forcing racial and economic quotas on lenders.

The problem most certainly was bundling loans. Well, Greenspan and I think so.
It’s a good example of lax regulation causing so much of this mess.
Remember when Greenspan admitted his error?

nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html

Mr. Greenspan, who was first appointed by President Ronald Reagan, placed far more blame on the Wall Street companies that bundled subprime mortgages into pools and sold them as mortgage-backed securities. Global demand for the securities was so high, he said, that Wall Street companies pressured lenders to lower their standards and produce more “paper.”

“The evidence strongly suggests that without the excess demand from securitizers, subprime mortgage originations (undeniably the original source of the crisis) would have been far smaller and defaults accordingly far lower,” he said.

Nobody who is a Christian should be surprised that man is inclined to sin and laws are needed to protect us.

Regarding investing for the long term as you say, what about for my brother who can’t retire now because of the tanked market? he’s in his mid-60’s… is he just s outta luck?

 

[estesbob]

The problem most certainly was bundling loans. Well, Greenspan and I think so.
It’s a good example of lax regulation causing so much of this mess.
Remember when Greenspan admitted his error?

nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html

Nobody who is a Christian should be surprised that man is inclined to sin and laws are needed to protect us.

Regarding investing for the long term as you say, what about for my brother who can’t retire now because of the tanked market? he’s in his mid-60’s… is he just s outta luck?

Tanked as compared to what ??? did he just start investing when he was in his 60s???